I have a Lionel NY Central boxcar (6454; built 1949-52) that was purchased in the early 1950's. It is 8.25" long.
I also have a Lionel Great Northern boxcar (6464-397; built in 1997) that is 9.5" long.
I understand the O-gauge scale for rolling stock to be 1:48. Based on information on the web, an actual boxcar ranges from 50'6" long (606") to 60'9" long (729").
Thus, the Lionel NY Central boxcar would seem to be at a scale of 1:73 to 1:88. Whereas the Lionel Great Northern boxcar would seem to be at a scale of 1:64 to 1:76.
Neither is at a scale of 1:48. Can someone please explain what I am missing?
Gulf Oil
Though Lionel does make true scaled O models that are 1:48, their classic lines of trains and -current lines based on those- are compressed in size in order to function on tracks that are 27" in diameter. 27" was the standard size of track distributed in starter sets and is particularly effectve for going around a christmas tree. Smaller rolling stock and sharp curves also allow an "O" layout to have almost as much action and trackage as an HO layout in the same space.
That's the origin of a term you may have heard called "0-27". These compressed models were usually compressed in length and sometimes in height. You probalby won't find an exact scale as length and height are not always compressed by the same percent. Compressed 0-27 or 0-36 are still produced today for those who prefer that style of railroading.
All this too say, you are probably correct that these are not true-scale 1/48 models. However, if you consider that they are probably models of 40' boxcars (an older protype, but common when model railroading earlier eras) than the scale discrepancies are probably significantly less than the ones you figured.
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Only the gauge is really consistent with Lionel stuff and this goes back a long ways. They did have a number of genuine O scale items going back to the 1930s NYC Hudson, the 1940s PRR 0-6-0 and boxcar and NYC caboose. I seem to recall they even dabbled with some 17/64 proportion trains which is the accurate scale for O gauge 1 1/4" track (which in 1/4" scale is of course five feet wide rather than the correct 4'8 1/2").
Into the 1950s the NW switcher and FM Trainmaster and F3 diesels were pretty close to scale.
The O-27 line is the same gauge but smaller for the tighter curves. Some O-27 freight cars are pretty close to accurate for S scale, 1/64th. Some S scalers raid them for parts such as car ends and doors.
The 6464 series of boxcars were meant to be models of 40 foot boxcars, so your analysis based on assumptions of 50 or 60 feet is of course going to be off. They are close to scale but not quite there. I measured one at about 37 feet as I recall. They are in pretty good proportion so the height and width and door sizes are again close to scale but not quite there. What they were and are mostly prized for was the paint and lettering which was closer to realistic than most toy train stuff. A string of 6464 boxcars behind the F units or the Berkshire steamer of the 1950s is darn close to scale in heft and appearance, if not in precise measurements.
Dave Nelson
Close to S is what is usually said about the smaller O-27 items. They were deliberately made smaller for the sharp curves - O-27 with 27" DIAMETER curves are actually far sharper than typical HO minimum radius curves which are 18" RADIUS or 36" diameter. Some of the larger Lionel equipment would only operate on the larger O-31 curves - but that's still 31" DIAMETER and still sharper than HO scale.
Over the years, Lionel also made less sharp radius track. O-54 was 54" diameter, with the smaller rail of O-27, and O-72 was 72" diameter with the heaviewer rail of O-31.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
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Both cars are based on 40' prototypes. The 6464 were sometimes called "semi-scale" because they were a bit small (a 1:48 scale 40' car is 10" long), but closer to scale models in size than most earlier toy train boxcars, and had good detail for the time. They were designed for Lionels O-31 track.
The 6454 were similar cars, but smaller, to allow them to go around O-27 curves. As noted, O-27 cars tend to be closer to 1:64 scale. BTW before WW2 American Flyer made some (for the time) fairly well detailed O gauge models that were made to the smaller 1:64 scale. Later they switched to using the correct "S gauge" for their 1:64 scale two-rail postwar line.
Keep in mind that the descriptors "gauge" and "scale" refer to completely different things. Gauge refers to the distance between the "outside" rails. Scale refers to the modeling proportion (O scale = 1:48). A train labeled O gauge only means that it will run on 1 1/4" O gauge track regardless of the true modeling proportion. On the other hand, a train labeled O scale must conform to a modeled proportion of 1:48, even if the gauge of the track it is designed to run on is only a scale 3 or even 2 1/2 feet wide (narrow gauge On3 or On2 1/2). When discussing O gauge or O scale trains, this community usually equates O "gauge" with three-rail track and "toy" trains (not to scale). This community usually equates O "scale" with two-rail track and a consistent 1:48 modeling proportion. Of course, true scale consistency can be a problem in O scale as model vehicle manufacturers prefer 1:43 and 1:50 scale proportions.
Hornblower
1/64 has some utilitiy if going O-27, but...
If you are going to go down the 0-27 route, it's worth noting that the closest scale for many such trains that I've seen actually looks to be 1/56. It's an odd scale that is not common in scale models but one that is very popular with wargamers under the aproximate "mm" scale of "28mm" (distance from sole of foot to eyeline). The styles (gritty realism vs toy nostalgia) tends to be different, but a relatively recent proliferation of superhero, wild west and zombie themed games has resulted in ALOT of 1/56 scale kits reflecting structures in urban and rural america, as well as some vehicles and civilian miniatures. Unsurprisingly, many wargamers use classic plasticville buildings (often a bit undersized for O scale) in their 1/56 (28mm) wargames.
To give you an idea of how these new structures and figures compare to trains, here's a battle we put on with a classic Lionel 0-27 train, 1/56 buildings, 1/43 and 1/48 vehicles and lots of figures ranging from 28-32mm.
https://www.chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/2017/12/08/the-scenic-route-a-walking-dead-campaign-chapter-3-runaway-train/
To a true-scale modeler it's a bloody mess, but if you're already fine with selective compression and some scale variability I think it all works pretty well.
BTW true O scale is a 1:45 ratio, 17/64" = 1 foot. (Divide 56.5 real standard gauge by 1.25 O gauge, and you get 45.2.)
In the US, we use 1:48 because it works out to 1/4" = 1 foot, which was a lot easier to scratchbuild models to than 17/64".
In Europe, where the metric system is more common, they use 7mm = 1 foot, which works out to 1:43.55 scale. That's why so many European "O scale" autos are 1:43 scale. It's also why HO ("Half O") scale is 1:87 scale instead of 1:96. It was developed in Europe, so they used half of 1:43.55 which is 1:87.1.
wjstix BTW true O scale is a 1:45 ratio, 17/64" = 1 foot. (Divide 56.5 real standard gauge by 1.25 O gauge, and you get 45.2.) In the US, we use 1:48 because it works out to 1/4" = 1 foot, which was a lot easier to scratchbuild models to than 17/64". In Europe, where the metric system is more common, they use 7mm = 1 foot, which works out to 1:43.55 scale. That's why so many European "O scale" autos are 1:43 scale. It's also why HO ("Half O") scale is 1:87 scale instead of 1:96. It was developed in Europe, so they used half of 1:43.55 which is 1:87.1.
Yes, I understand completely (while shaking my head "no")
Marlon
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wjstix It's also why HO ("Half O") scale is 1:87 scale instead of 1:96. It was developed in Europe, so they used half of 1:43.55 which is 1:87.1.
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That is the hardest thing to explain to people.
I am often asked why such a strange ratio was used for HO, and the explanation is so unbelievable that evemn I shake my head sometimes while I am saying it.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
If HO gauge had been developed in the US instead of Europe it probably would have been 1:96 scale, using 1/2 of American 1:48 scale...which would make HO scale work out to 1/8" = 1 foot. That might actually have been easier to work with than 1:87 scale's 3.5mm = 1 foot. The trains would be more out of scale to the track, but no worse than OO scale where 4mm = 1 foot on the same gauge track as HO.
p.s. Some early model railroad textbooks recommended using 1/8' = 1 ft. in building structures for an HO layout, as a kind of selective compression.
wjstixIf HO gauge had been developed in the US instead of Europe it probably would have been 1:96 scale, using 1/2 of American 1:48 scale...which would make HO scale work out to 1/8" = 1 foot. That might actually have been easier to work with than 1:87 scale's 3.5mm = 1 foot.
Any scale that does not try to mix metric (mm) with English (feet and inches) would be easier to work with and makes more sense.
There was some experimenting with genuine 1/8" = 1 ft scale, and as I recall it was called E scale. This goes back to the 1930s. There was also experimenting at the time with scales based on printing measurements, picas and points.
Problem is that while 1/8" scale made perfect sense this is when modelers and manufacturers were struggling to fit good motors into OO and HO much less anything smaller. That is why so many early HO locomotives were Reading prototypes with those wide fireboxes to burn anthracite coal.
That's also why the British use "OO" scale, 4mm = 1 foot instead of HO scale 3.5mm = 1 foot. UK prototype engines are smaller than a US prototype of the same wheel arrangement, so when HO gauge first came out they found that if they made the models to 1:87 scale they couldn't fit the smallest existing motor inside. They kept the gauge but made the linear scale about 1/8th larger, 1:76.
Lionel is not true O Scale. O Scale is 1:48 and to build to scale like HO. In fact a O Scale diesel Locomotive and a HO diesel locomotive looks like the prototype unlike Lionel's diesel with its swinging front end including the steps
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
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