Restoring 1960s HO scale Brass Electric Locomotives?

[Jetrock]

Recently I bought a pair of 1968 vintage Model Engineering Works HO scale General Electric steeplecab electric locomotives in brass. The price was right, but they are, for want of a better term, the filthiest engines I have ever purchased. So far I have given one a good scrub with a toothbrush, and even gotten the motor to work, but with operating characteristics fairly typical of 1960s brass (speed control goes basically from dead stop to Mach 1, then back to dead stop when it hits a frog or insulated rail gap.) They have potential, though, and since I model an obscure prototype (Sacramento Northern in the transition from electric to diesel era) my choices are either scratchbuilding (which I have tried but get bogged down in the details) or fixing up old brass equipment to run. I do have a few other brass pieces (Ken Kidder Niles combine and observation car, MEW Holman combine, Ken Kidder Baldwin-Westinghouse steeplecab) that are far prettier externally but also run like toy-train equipment (cheap open-frame motors with unreliable pickup) or are currently unpowered. Eventually my plan is to have a small stable of functional electric interurban freight and passenger power to supplement my handful of first-generation SN and WP diesels. I assume that the same principles that apply to restoring brass steam or diesel locomotives also apply to electrics, with the caveat that these models are on the small side (they're a bit larger than a General Electric 44-tonner.) Any ideas?

 

Any advice, links, old MR articles, or other pointers for (1) cleaning up the filthy-dirty brass car bodies (I assume some sort of ultrasonic dip like used for cleaning jewelry would be ideal, but don't have the ultrasonic doohickey), and (2) repowering with can motors and/or DCC? I have seen the Trolleyville tutorial on repowering Suydam brass interurbans but looking for any other references to review or provide handy hints.

[wvg_ca]

first thing that i would do, would be to clean out all the old grease and luricant ... it's had a long time to get thicker ..

i have had good luck with the labele brand

[Jetrock]

wvg_ca

first thing that i would do, would be to clean out all the old grease and luricant ... it's had a long time to get thicker ..

i have had good luck with the labele brand

 

 

Thanks. I use LaBelle lubricant, but what's the best way to get out the old grease and oil from the gears?

[hon30critter]

Jetrock

Recently I bought a pair of 1968 vintage Model Engineering Works HO scale General Electric steeplecab electric locomotives in brass. The price was right, but they are, for want of a better term, the filthiest engines I have ever purchased.

Hi Jetrock,

I have no advice to offer (other than to agree with cleaning the old grease out as a start) but it sure sounds like a great project! I love steeple cabs!

Hopefully Darth Santa Fe will chime in. If anyone knows how to resurrect an old locomotive, he does!

Please keep us posted.

Dave

[dstarr]

Jetrock

wvg_ca

first thing that i would do, would be to clean out all the old grease and luricant ... it's had a long time to get thicker ..

i have had good luck with the labele brand

Thanks. I use LaBelle lubricant, but what's the best way to get out the old grease and oil from the gears?

To get the old grease out of the gears I take the gearbox apart and soak everything in a solvent.  Alcohol usually does the trick.  There are more agressive solvents, lacquor thinner, acetone, and MEK, but they are agressive enough to attack plastic, so be careful. 

   Then I would put some Goo-Gone on a qtip and clean the commutator. Never oil a commutator.  The motor wants a drop of oil on each bearing.  I have had excellent luck replacing old Alnico motor magnets with the new neodynium supermagnets.  It's much easier than putting in a can motor and just about as effective. 

  Only thing I know of for cleaning up the brass bodies is soap and hot water, followed by wipe down with alcohol, followed by a pass of brass polish such as Brasso. 

 

[Jetrock]

dstarr

To get the old grease out of the gears I take the gearbox apart and soak everything in a solvent.  Alcohol usually does the trick.  There are more agressive solvents, lacquor thinner, acetone, and MEK, but they are agressive enough to attack plastic, so be careful. 

   Then I would put some Goo-Gone on a qtip and clean the commutator. Never oil a commutator.  The motor wants a drop of oil on each bearing.  I have had excellent luck replacing old Alnico motor magnets with the new neodynium supermagnets.  It's much easier than putting in a can motor and just about as effective. 

  Only thing I know of for cleaning up the brass bodies is soap and hot water, followed by wipe down with alcohol, followed by a pass of brass polish such as Brasso.

Neat! Hadn't heard of the trick with neodynium magnets, but doing a little research on it I'm very intrigued by the possibilities--in this and my other semi-vintage brass interurbans & steeplecabs! I have some alcohol and Goo Gone, so I'll try the gearbox cleaning and commutator cleaning too.

[OT Dean]

dstarr

 

 

Jetrock

wvg_ca

first thing that i would do, would be to clean out all the old grease and luricant ... it's had a long time to get thicker ..

i have had good luck with the labele brand

Thanks. I use LaBelle lubricant, but what's the best way to get out the old grease and oil from the gears?

 

 

 

To get the old grease out of the gears I take the gearbox apart and soak everything in a solvent.  Alcohol usually does the trick.  There are more agressive solvents, lacquor thinner, acetone, and MEK, but they are agressive enough to attack plastic, so be careful. 

   Then I would put some Goo-Gone on a qtip and clean the commutator. Never oil a commutator.  The motor wants a drop of oil on each bearing.  I have had excellent luck replacing old Alnico motor magnets with the new neodynium supermagnets.  It's much easier than putting in a can motor and just about as effective. 

  Only thing I know of for cleaning up the brass bodies is soap and hot water, followed by wipe down with alcohol, followed by a pass of brass polish such as Brasso. 

 

 

As long as you don't need to have nice, shiny, yellow brass showing, I recommend Barkeeper's Friend cleanser, which has been changed to a liquid since I first started using the powdered stuff.  You shake the daylights out of the container, apply to the brass model, let it work (it's almost like Scrubbing Bubbles bathroom cleaner: penetrates the crud), and clean with a soft toothbrush or cotton swabs.  The only, slight, disadvantage is that it turns solder a dark gray, but as I say, it's not really a problem.

I'm also a fan of electric freight operations, Illinois Terminal myself (just found some great footage on YouTube).  Good luck.

Deano

[wvg_ca]

if you replace the standard magnets with supermagnets, remember that changing the direction of the stack changes the direction of the motor .. you don't really have to mark the n/s poles of the stack if you remember this

[Tinplate Toddler]

I cannot recommend to use any abrasive polishes to clean the brass body of your engine. The best (and certainly the smoothest) way is soda blasting, which cleans the surface without scratching or pitting it. A soda blaster can easily be home-made.

For finer stuff, use a air brush with a larger nozzle! Remember to wear eye protection and a respiratory mask.

[dknelson]

Old brass electrics have a special value for rehabbing because unlike some steam and nearly all diesel, the electric locomotives have for the most part not been subsequently offered in better versions, be they brass, plastic or die cast.  

The engine body might indeed be "dirty" but it is also more likely to be tarnish, which can be especially difficult to remove since often the metal itself is roughened.  Sometimes an application of "Brasso" helps.  In extreme cases where the metal is actually roughened by tarnish a wire brush in a Dremel tool, at moderate speed, might clean stuff up.  Do not use a steel wire brush - use a brass wire brush.  Experiment on an inconspicuous part first (eg interior of the body).

Be aware that there was a practice for some brass locomotives to PAINT them brass to inhibit tarnish, cover up the soldering evidence, and unify the color of the locomotive, since brass comes in various tinges and hues, some almost reddish.  In that case treating the body like you are removing paint is needed.  Raw brass has its own color(s).

One problem with many of the old motors is that the brush tension on the open frame motor was excessive.  Even experimenting with small rubber bands (like the kinds my sister had for her braces as a teen) might show if your brush tension is too much.

The advice above was to never oil a commutator.  There are some who disagree with that, some who extremely disagree.  Most electronics experts agree with not oiling the commutator.  I have found that for older motors a tiny dab of light oil applied with a micro brush, along with using a sharp toothpick to clean out the gaps or slots in the armature, followed in turn by using a clean microbrush to remove as much of that oil as possible from the commutator (it will likely come up filthy) makes an old motor run smoothly.

MicroMark among others sells the aftermarket magnets that can increase the power of an old open frame motor.  

Some guys have repowered old steeple cabs by using the power trains of Bachmann GE 44 and/or 70 tonners.  The trucks are often very similar.  A few years ago someone was offering an after market brass body for a steeple cab that was designed to fit on the Bachmann power chassis in fact.

Dave Nelson 

 

 

 

[RR_Mel]

If you can’t get the old motors to perform like you want I’m quite impressed the Mabuchi SF-266, cheap off eBay and very powerful.

 

The listings say it’s 7900 RPM at 13.5 volts.  I’ve done a lot of testing and they turn a little over 6000 RPM (no load) at 12 volts.  Around 5300 RPM full load at 12 volts.  A pair of SF-266 motors do not get hot at a constant 380ma each that produces 9.8oz drawbar on a heavily weighted Athearn SD40-2 frame at wheel slip.

 

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=mabuchi+sf-266&_sacat=0

 

They are very close to the Canon EN22 motor in performance.  They draw less current than the Canon, probably because of the 6 pole armature.  The Armature isn’t skew wound but is very powerful at low RPM more so than the Canon, the dual Mabuchi motored SD40-2 creeps at a lower voltage than a like equipped locomotive with Canon motors with or without towing a load.

 

Mel

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

[Jetrock]

dknelson

The engine body might indeed be "dirty" but it is also more likely to be tarnish, which can be especially difficult to remove since often the metal itself is roughened.  Sometimes an application of "Brasso" helps.  In extreme cases where the metal is actually roughened by tarnish a wire brush in a Dremel tool, at moderate speed, might clean stuff up.  Do not use a steel wire brush - use a brass wire brush.  Experiment on an inconspicuous part first (eg interior of the body).

Some guys have repowered old steeple cabs by using the power trains of Bachmann GE 44 and/or 70 tonners.  The trucks are often very similar.  A few years ago someone was offering an after market brass body for a steeple cab that was designed to fit on the Bachmann power chassis in fact.

Oh, this is definitely dirt! I gave one a light scrub with a soft toothbrush and cotton swab and the brass underneath is in fine condition (some details got dinged, like bent handrails and pilot) but especially on the underside there's a ton of bits of grime, fiber, and assorted stuff that came off very easily. I'll try cleaning it up manually then do a dip in vinegar followed by a soapy water bath.

I have some old Bachman 44/70 tonner power trucks and have experimented with the after-market plastic steeplecab body, but found them mostly unsatisfactory. Buying these two brass critters means I'm also setting aside a Shapeways body shell that was designed to fit over a modern Bachmann 44 tonner body (even though it meant cutting out the circuit board and DCC controller) in favor of a new project...but I do have a soft spot for brass.

[hon30critter]

RR_Mel

I’m quite impressed the Mabuchi SF-266

Hi Mel,

I can't believe how cheap they are! Free shipping too. I just ordered some. I haven't a clue what I will use them for, but like my father often said, "I'm going to buy some so I have some". I promise to not carry that philosophy too far. He ended up with tons of junk in his basement! I think he owned every crappy tool set that Canadian Tire ever offered! Knuckle busters all!

Dave

[SeeYou190]

RR_Mel

I’m quite impressed the Mabuchi SF-266

.

I just ordered 10 of them because they are only $2.00 each! I found the 7,900 RPM version.

.

-Kevin

.

[Jetrock]

Well dang, I just bought a couple myself in case this magnet trick doesn't perform as advertised! Could come in handy for a couple of other projects too. Just spent another slice of the evening going through all my interurban brass and trying to decide what could be repowered. I have a few that I like, but they're not very good runners so I don't operate them very often. Not that I'm expecting a Suydam 60s model to run like a modern DCC-equipped loco with an ersatz fix, but transitioning from mostly using diesel-era Sacramento Northern engines (like the one in my avatar) to electrics would be pretty neat, to the point where I might try backdating the era of my layout to the 1930s or 20s instead of the circa-1950 era I model now (not that it would require much besides replacing the 1950s cars on the layout now with older cars, and maybe a few more old-fashioned miniatures; most of the buildings on the layout now would fit quite well on a 1920s pike.) Spent another hour or so cleaning up the body of the first of the two GE body shells--the brass is in very good condition with almost no oxidation except a bit on the pilots and footboards.

[Darth Santa Fe]

If your steeplecabs have the Pittman style motor, the magnet trick should make a huge difference.  My favorite source for these is K&J Magnetics.  For the motors that are beyond help though, a good can motor like those Mabuchis will be a definite improvement.  For spaces too narrow for those 18x18 motors, I've had good luck with the FK-130SH.

Adding electrical wipers to all the wheels will make one of the biggest improvements of all.  Kadee centering springs are excellent for this since they're easy to solder and have just the right tension for good contact with minimal restriction of movement.  To fit odd spaces, I clip them in half and solder them to a piece of brass strip to line things up, and then use thin plastic between the wipers and other metal parts for insulation.

[sandusky]

Naptha (lighter fluid) cheap and readily available, to clean out old lube.

[hon30critter]

sandusky

Naptha (lighter fluid) cheap and readily available, to clean out old lube.

Isn't there a risk of things going up in flames?

Dave

[emdmike]

A remotor with a can and flywheels does wonders and reduces the amp draw that can pit the contact surfaces on the axles and wheel treads.  If you do DCC, an decoder and keep alive solves the lack of enough electrical pickups when going over insulated switch frogs. Only replacement trucks can solve the gear noise of the early brass diesels and electics before the Ajin and Samhongsa tower drives that showed up in the early 80's.  Most of the noise in my NWSL logging engines is not the gearing, even in the Willamette Shay, its the open frame motor.  And the one in that Shay is a genuine USA made Pittman.  Runs excellent, has a good magnet, but is noisy and there is little you can do about the noise from an exposed armature.  So NWSL 1630 flat can motors are planned once I get 2 of them.  My Canon CN22 that i have is to large, to wide for the Booth Kelly Mallet and to tall for the Willamette.      Mike the Aspie