Ballast size and brand

[Aikidomaster]

I have hand laid some new track in HO scale. I want the ballast to look as good as the track work. I am modeling N&W circa 1958. I have felt that Woodlands Scene ballast is too large. I was thinking about N scale ballast. I understand that Woodland Scene ballast is made from crushed pecan shells or something. I understand that some other brands use crushed rocks. What are your thoughts and recommendations?

[gmpullman]

I agree that smaller sizes look more plausible on the layout. I never had very good results with Woodland Scenics ballast. Two of my favorites, Highball and Smith & Sons ballast are no longer available.

My current preference is Arizona Rock and Mineral. Before you commit to a particular size I would suggest getting small samples of various colors and sizes and see what looks pleasing to your eye.

https://rrscenery.com/

 Scenic Express is another option. They used to distribute Smith & Sons natural stone. Some of their recent offerings seem to look too "translucent" mto my eye. 

https://www.sceneryexpress.com/N-HO-O-Natural-Stone/products/1107/

Good Luck, Ed

[peahrens]

Looking up some prior threads that include "ballast" & "size"

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/154410.aspx

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/253455.aspx

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/221581.aspx

 

There are others.  I like a Google search..."site: cs.trains (subject)"

Sorry but I've again forgotten how to make Forum links clickable(??).

[BigDaddy]

peahrens

Looking up some prior threads that include "ballast" & "size"

Clickable versions

Thread 1

Thread 2

Thread 3

[BroadwayLion]

In North Carolina, eh? My brother lives in Washington NC.

As for ballast, I use cat litter. You want small you sift it to get the size you want.

LION never glues ballast, gravity works good enough. Allows for easy re-laying of the tracks. Doesnt damage track if I want to rebuild.

For your project I would look at a contractor's stor for sandblasting medeium. You may find a size and color that you like. Some of them are even ground up pecan shells.

Now I am goiing to have to look for a Pecan Pie

 

ROAR

[jpg]

BroadwayLion

As for ballast, I use cat litter.  ... LION never glues ballast,

I agree, no need to glue down cat litter, the cat will take care of that for you.

I've heard worse ideas for ballast than cat litter, but they aren't coming to mind at the moment. 

Some people have had success using sanded grout, available in many colors from your home big box store in 25 lb bags for much less than hobby shop ballast. You can get and mix a couple colors to achieve the right look. You can use a bit of water with a drop of dish soap rather than glue to hold it down.

The most common complaint about sanded grout is that by itself it is too fine for HO and tends to look more like mud or dirt rather than miniture gravel, so some people use it as part of their ballast mix, mixed with something a little coarser. Grout also comes unsanded, don't get that, it's more expensive and even finer.

I read a thread elsewhere about Black Diamond coal slag blast medium. It's a sand-like sand-blasting medium made from ground up coal slag (left over from burning coal at a power plant). Very black, shiny little particles, cheap if you can find it at a contractor store, mostly in the midwest. The problem is it might be electrically conductive enough to short your rails... You'd need to glue a bit down on a test piece of track and check it with an ohmmeter to know for sure. Anyway, when going the 'alternate' route for ballast, make sure you don't use something that is conductive. Some poor soul out there used something with iron particles in it, and he was fine until he added glue, and then he had shorts all over the place until he tore his track up and relaid it.

[peahrens]

jpg

and he was fine until he added glue, and then he had shorts all over the place until he tore his track up and relaid it.

Yikes!  A nightmare!

[Mark R.]

jpg

 .... was fine until he added glue, and then he had shorts all over the place until he tore his track up and relaid it.

 

I had a similar problem on an earlier layout. The layout had a full signal system that was functioning perfect using resistive wheelsets. As soon as I added the wet glue to the ballast, it triggered every signal ! Fortunately, once the glue dried, everything returned to normal.

Mark.

[kasskaboose]

What a relief that I held off on ordering ballast.  This timely topic reinforces the importance of checking with others about ballast size and type.  It makes sense to rely on a variety of colors and sizes.

[EMDSD40]

I agree with the LION....I use cat litter. Majority of it been laying there for three decades. Size and color vary by type and manufacturer. Find a product you are happy with and buy several large plastic jugs and keep them under the bench. It is cost effective. When change to trackwork becomes necessary it can easily be swept up and reused for the most part. Used on both O gauge and HO layouts. Laying there loose has caused no problems with locomotives/rolling stock on either layout. All track has been air brushed "railbrown" and when ballasted it looks good enough to my eyes. Have fun and good luck on your decision

[doctorwayne]

I've use both the Woodland Scenics ballast and real rock ballast (sifted from limestone "fines").  In my opinion, both look good once in place, although their properties differ somewhat.

The WS ballast (I use the "Fine" version for my HO layout, as it's more to scale, but because the colour is rather uniform, it may appear too small for some tastes) is fairly easy to spread, although its light weight means that it's easy to flick all over the place when you're grooming it.
 
I use a 1/2" or 3/4" soft brush to move it into place, but keep the brush handle almost parallel to the track, dragging the ballast into place rather than brushing it.
Once most of it is where you want it, lightly grasp the ferrule of the brush, then lay the handle across the rails and lightly tap it with your free hand while moving along the track - the stray particles laying atop the ties will "magically" bounce off, and into the spaces between the ties.

The complaints about WS ballast floating when wetted are spurious:  I use "wet" water (ordinary tap water with a few drops of dish detergent added), but if your water is especially "hard", distilled water is an affordable alternative from any supermarket.  Some folks use alcohol rather than the detergent, but because I prefer to do long stretches of ballasting at-a-time, it evapourates too quickly for my tastes.

A good-quality sprayer is a must for ballasting, and should never be used to spray glue of any type.  Aim the first few spritzes upward and let the droplets fall onto the ballast.  Once dampened, it can be sprayed more directly.  Don't get the sprayer too close, though.

If you have trouble with the ballast floating, you've either not using enough detergent (3 or 4 drops for a quart seems to work well for me) or you've not wetted the area thoroughly.  The wetting process is probably the most critical factor in getting good results, but don't skimp when applying the diluted white glue, either.  If the ballast is properly wetted, the glue will not remain on the surface, and will be invisible once hardened.

For real rock ballast, the main difference is that, because of its irregular shape, it tends to "lock" together, much in the way real ballast does.  This makes it a little more difficult to spread, but the procedure is similar to that for the WS ballast, including the clearing of excess material from the tie tops.

For turnouts, I apply a plastic-compatible oil to the tops of all ties over which the points move, then flick the points back and forth a few times to spread the oil.  The points are then positioned mid-throw, not touching the stock rails. For sprung points, use bits of strip styrene to to keep the points away from the stock rails.

Some photos...

Applying the ballast (real rock, in this case)....

...the ballast after grooming...

...ballast wetted...

...applying the glue...

...the glue applied...

....ballast firmly in-place, and the track back in service...

Even very deep ballast can be secured in this manner, although it may take several days to fully harden.  The two photos below are of the same area, as seen from both ends - this took over a week to harden but is very solid....

I used masking tape to hold the material in place along the fascia, which kept most of the glue where it was supposed to be.  The fascia will eventually be painted.

Wayne

[riogrande5761]

doctorwayne

he WS ballast ...  although its light weight means that it's easy to flick all over the place when you're grooming it. 

The complaints about WS ballast floating when wetted are spurious: 

I would user the term low density, but readers get the point.

As for spurious complaints about WS ballast "floating" ...  maybe floating is a poor descripton.  But if a novice used too much fluid too quickly, it would be much more prone to being displaced or washed out of place than rock ballast.

Many jump to the defense of WS and thats fine but I would at least comment that a high density material like real rock ballast would be more forgiving to apply neatly and fix in place with liquid; reason being it's harder move than the low density crushed walnut shells if a novice were too enthusiastic with the application of liquid. 

In conclusion, I would steer hobbyists with little experience to use a material that is easier to install and be less likely to be frustrating.  

I wouldn't think brand matters much as long as it is real rock ballast and you are happy with the size and color.

[HO-Velo]

Something else to think about if you desire consistent ballast color is to buy all you need now, as down the road mfg. can go out of business or lose access to raw materials.

Regards,  Peter 

[wp8thsub]

doctorwayne

The complaints about WS ballast floating when wetted are spurious...If you have trouble with the ballast floating, you've either not using enough detergent ...or you've not wetted the area thoroughly. 

I must say I've experienced this issue, and only with Woodland Scenics.  I use plenty of water and surfactant (either alcohol or detergent), but still find the material more finicky than I'm willing to tolerate.

 

Milton West 5

by wp8thsub, on Flickr

Lakeview Desert 1

by wp8thsub, on Flickr

Given how foolproof real rock has been for me, and how successfully it can be employed by most hobbyists, it would be my recommendation for anyone who hasn't done much ballasting.  The above photos show a combination of Scenic Express #40 grade, which I like for HO, and various sources of fine sand.

[Aikidomaster]

I like the idea of trying various color and sizes of ballast. I am going to get several samples from Arizona Rock and Mineral and give it a try. Thank you for your help.

 

Craig

[Aikidomaster]

I love pecan pie. Holidays and all coming up. 

Craig

[Aikidomaster]

Wayne,

I like what you did with your ballast. I use isopropyl alcohol as a wetting solution and then apply Woodlands scenic cement. The WS ballast floats all over the place. I don't like it for that reason. Thank you for your kind help.

Craig

[doctorwayne]

Aikidomaster

...I like what you did with your ballast....

Thanks for your kind words, Craig.

Aikidomaster

....I use isopropyl alcohol as a wetting solution and then apply Woodlands scenic cement. The WS ballast floats all over the place. I don't like it for that reason.....

Well, perhaps I've just been lucky, but the Woodland Scenics was the first stuff I used for ballasting, and I've never had it float or get washed away by application of too much water.  I'm very satisfied with its performance, but the real rock ballast was easy to use, too, albeit a little more difficult to spread due to its tendency to lock together like real ballast.

HO-Velo

Something else to think about if you desire consistent ballast color is to buy all you need now, as down the road mfg. can go out of business or lose access to raw materials.

Regards,  Peter 

Peter, it's not necessarily unprototypical to have ballast of varying colours at different places along the tracks. 

In the photo below, the darker ballast on the left is on Grand Valley trackage, while the lighter stuff to the right is on the track of the Erie Northshore. 

The ballast, in both colours, is from Woodland Scenics.

 While the two roads are affiliated, they're still separate entities, and use their own standards.

For example, the Grand Valley uses cottage-style roofs on their speeder sheds...

...while the Northshore prefers peaked roofs....

 

However, the Grand Valley's track goes to the partial upper level of my layout, where some of the ballast is real rock (screened limestone fines given to me by a good friend in Ohio) which, further along the line, changes colour again, where the Ohio ballast ran out, and I simply carried on with southern Ontario limestone fines, again, a somewhat different colour.

I have several quarries within a fifteen minute drive from home, and while they're all taking rock from the Niagara Escarpment, it's not necessarily all the same colour.

I've seen this along the tracks when out railfanning, too, as ballast will often come from different quarries, depending on their location and, in many cases, on the price.

Wayne

 

 

[SeeYou190]

I am a fan of Arizona Rock and mineral for the past several layouts.

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There "HO Scale" ballast looks good on my HO scale track.

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-Kevin

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[Track fiddler]

Arizona Rock and Mineral..... Ditto.  When I get to that point of the project I will be fiddling around the track with nothing else

 

TF

[PC101]

No matter if it says ''HO'' or ''N'' scale, I measure the grains (ballast) to see just what size they are. I use grains (ballast) that is no larger then 3'' HO scale in diameter. That looks right to me and what matches what is laying on the right of way around here. That then is the brand I buy. As a ''test'', take a piece of ballast and put it in one of your HO scale person's hand, now look how big it is. Does it look in size like a grape fruit or like a lemon. Now go down to the tracks and pick up in your hand a 1-1 ratio piece of ballast and compare, grape fruit or lemon? 

I have seen some model railroads that the ballast looked too large. I'm guessing that person needs to see the individual ballast to register in their mind that it is there. But like said above, you do not want it to look like smooth mud either. (Not unless you model the Penn Central and some ties really were sitting in mud and it squished up over the ties). I use Alcohol first on the ballast then get real close with droplets of glue/ballast cement  and the glue wicks in fast with no floaters plus Alcohol dryes faster then water. 

KEEP THE BALLAST CEMENT/GLUE AWAY FROM THE SWITCH POINTS!     

[gmpullman]

My issue with the Woodland Scenics product was not the floating of the grains but the fact that the ballast had a translucent look to it once dried. It kind of looked like quartz or alabaster. I don't have any photos of what I put down as it was only a short section and it was several years ago now.

I agree with P-C 101 that the smaller sizes seem to enhance the appearance of the track structure.

PRR_5700 by Edmund, on Flickr

I agree with Wayne as well about different ballasts used on various segments of track. Sometimes ballast would be cleaned and screened on the big railroads or a particular section was scheduled to have new ballast applied.

IMG_7923_fix by Edmund, on Flickr

IMG_7933_fix by Edmund, on Flickr

These scenes above have varying grades of ballast from clean limestone on the main to cinders in the yard. The B&O toward the back has Arizona Kaibab.

Thank you, Ed

[mobilman44]

I started out with WS on the current layout but it's downsides got me looking for something better.  I ended up with Arizona rock and mixed N with HO which worked out nicely.

One other thing I did was differentiate the ballast between the main lines and sub mains and terminals/sidings/yards.  The mains are a clean / new looking light grey, the sub mains an aged medium / dark grey, and the terminal tracks are black (coal) / dark grey, while sidings and yard are straight dark grey.

 

[Medina1128]

Aikidomaster

I understand that Woodland Scene ballast is made from crushed pecan shells or something.

From what I've heard, Woodland Scenics ballast IS indeed made from nutshells. If you get their ballast, get the next scale down from what your layout is; N scale for HO layouts, for example. I found that the key to using it is to 1) lightly sand the sharp edge of the cork roadbed, 2) apply masking tape about 1/4-3/8" from the edge of the roadbed, 3) brush straight white glue to the slope up to the tape. This will give you a nice clean edge. Then sprinkle a thin layer of ballast to the white glue.

After a few minutes, before the glue dries, pull up the masking tape. This will give the roadbed slope some tooth for the final application. The next thing is to 1) be very patient, 2) apply the ballast between the ties and the ends and using a 1" paintbrush, groom the ballast so there aren't any stray ballast on the ties. Gently tapping on the railhead will help it fall between the ties. I usually sprinkle enough ballast to get between the ties and over the rail to get between the ends of them and add that extra layer to the ballast on the slope. Then wet it thoroughly with 70% rubbing alcohol, then let it sit for about 5-10 minutes to completely saturate it. I use the "rainfall" method to wet it with a garden mister, as it seems to have the finest mist, as opposed to cheap spray bottles. The "rainfall" method starts by spraying the alcohol in an upward direction, letting it gently rain down on the ballast. I use a slightly thicker diluted glue mixture than what I use for scenery. This helps keep it from washing away on the slopes. When it's completely dry, pick any stray pieces of ballast off the ties.

[rrebell]

Woodland Scenics stuff is great,but you have to do it right, no rapid shortcuts or you will end up with a mess. You have to pre wet it with wet water, a very light spray at first till it gets wet and then add more and use a dropper and your choise of glue (I use mat medium).

[peahrens]

Medina1128

2) apply masking tape about 1/4-3/8" from the edge of the roadbed, 3) brush straight white glue to the slope up to the tape. This will give you a nice clean edge. Then sprinkle a thin layer of ballast to the white glue. After a few minutes, before the glue dries, pull up the masking tape. This will give the roadbed slope some tooth for the final application.

Marlon:

 

Am I interpreting this to mean that your subsequent ballast application slopes from the top of the roadbed to the ballasted edge some 1/4" (or more) from the bottom of the roadbed?  That would add 1/2" or more to the ballast width.

This would result in a lower slope than the slope of the roadbed side itself.  For instance, my typical HO cork roadbed has a rather steep slope.  Your idea (if I have it right) interests me as I have yet to ballast my cork roadbed layout and I fear that applying ballast at the 45-degree or so cork slope will not be the look I prefer.   

[Medina1128]

peahrens

Am I interpreting this to mean that your subsequent ballast application slopes from the top of the roadbed to the ballasted edge some 1/4" (or more) from the bottom of the roadbed?  That would add 1/2" or more to the ballast width. This would result in a lower slope than the slope of the roadbed side itself.  For instance, my typical HO cork roadbed has a rather steep slope.  Your idea (if I have it right) interests me as I have yet to ballast my cork roadbed layout and I fear that applying ballast at the 45-degree or so cork slope will not be the look I prefer.   

No, I am saying to add more to the ballast to the ballast held in place by the straight white glue, but not to the point that it widens the original ballast. NIn the photo below, you can see some individual grains of ballast. The get cleaned up using a shop vac with a small nozzle attachment.

 

[gmpullman]

I use a very similar technique to Marlon's. I use plain white glue, full strength, liberally brushed on the "slope" of the cork roadbed. I lightly apply my ballast over the edges and let this dry for a day.

Using a newer-style cordless vacuum which allows me to reclaim the ballast, I suck up any excess ballast. Now I'm ready to fill in between the ties, rail and tie ends with my final ballast. The already cemented ballast on the slope helps keep the profile and prevents too much ballast from "sliding" off the bevel of the cork.

Those light taps on the rail head are a good hint as well for knocking the stray stones off the base of the rail and tops of the ties.

Then I continue with the wet-water and matte medium (I prefer Mod-Podge but everyone has their preference).

Regards, Ed