Looking for sawmill ideas

[rs2mike]

hey guys and gals. I have the whole walthers sawmill complex with all the outbuildings and such. I Am drawing up a plan and am looking for ideas on building arrangements andtrack arrangements.  Please post pictures or ideas if you have any. 

 

Thanks

Mike

[snjroy]

Hi there. What era and which part of the country are you modelling?

Simon

[rs2mike]

Have not nailed down the region. This will be a what if logging continued well intomthe diesel era say 2000 or later. Something around the canfor line or the tillamook line. 

Using the walthers mill. This is a smaller operation. Nothing like the big mondern sawmills.

 

was more looking for how people have their mills set up. Track arrangements to mill and buildings and such. 

[snjroy]

I guess the big question is how will the lumber arrive and leave the sawmill and how the materials are unloaded/loaded. Steam era mills used a lot of water. I think that this would be the exception in the era you are interested in. Modern that I see around here will use large cranes to unload the logs. 

Simon

[RR_Mel]

A bit of logging history.

 

I lived in a small town during the late 60s to mid 70s that had a sawmill.  The town was Alamogordo NM the sawmill was La Luz Lumber Co.

 

Alamogordo is located in the foothills of the Lincoln National Forest.  The original logging was done by rail from the late 1800s till the 1930s.  The Southern Pacific built the track from Alamogordo (4350’) to Cloudcroft New Mexico (9500’).  The track was narrow gauge rails laid at standard gauge width.  The SP used the lumber for making ties.  They had several scattered sawmills in the mountains early on.  Then a mill was built in Alamogordo by a fellow from Pennsylvania and the mountain mills were shut down, eventually the SP sold the track and equipment to the Alamogordo sawmill owners and the railroad became the Alamogordo and Sacramento Mountain Railway.

 

 

 

I also do a bit of logging on my railroad even though I don't live in New Mexico now.

 

 

 

The Alamogordo sawmill shut down in the late 30s, reopened in 1945 then shutdown again in the early 50s.  The rails to Cloudcroft were removed in 1947.

 

The logging was done with 18 wheelers after the railroad shut down their operations in the 30s.

 

The sawmill reopened again with a new owner in the 60s and continued until the mid 70s.

 

The sawmill in the 60s and 70s was smaller than the earlier operations, about 30 acres, a single burner and several lumber storage buildings.  There were two tracks for loading.  They sold sawdust as well as cut lumber.  They must have leased cars from the SP as that is the only cars I saw being loaded.  The railroad operation was a small part of the sawmill, the biggest part was keeping the dozens of 18 wheelers hauling the logs down the 20+ miles of 6% to 7½% road operational.  The brakes had massive cooling systems.

 

I left Alamogordo in the mid 80s and the sawmill was still shut down.  I understand it reopened again after I left then closed pertinently in 2001.

 

Here is a FaceBook link to the Alamogordo sawmill.

 

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1095381980530973.1073741841.943715599030946&type=3

 

The most impressive thing at the sawmill for me was the gigantic wheeled log loader, I’m 6’2” and the front wheels were easily 3’ over my head.

 

The pit in the FaceBook picture isn’t a rail road pit, it was for maintaining the 18 wheelers and log loader.

 

EDIT:

 

This is a picture of La Luz Lumber Sawmill off Google Maps.

 

 

Mel

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

[Motley]

Check this out here, should give you some ideas for a logging layout.

I reccomend getting this book. https://www.amazon.com/Model-Railroaders-Guide-Logging-Railroads/dp/0890247021/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1ZXHN7EYMBMQS&keywords=the+model+railroader%27s+guide+to+logging+railroads&qid=1569611041&s=gateway&sprefix=model+railroad+logging%2Caps%2C180&sr=8-1

 

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ho+scale+logging+layout

http://www.btsrr.com/millplan.htm

http://www.oakhurstrailroad.com/Track%20Plan.htm

 I my opinion I think you should go for water for logs coming into the sawmill complex. That would look good, even if you have modern era.

[Beach Bill]

I have an HO sawmill complex set in the WWI era of Southwest Virginia.  It seems to me that track arrangements for most modern sawmills are quite simplistic.  The suggestion to look at actual sawmill sites via Google Maps is a good one.  There is a sawmill near me just east of Conway, South Carolina (technically in Red Hill, SC) that is served by RJ Corman's short line.  The logs come in by truck, and all of the movement of items around the plant are by truck or large fork lift.  A single siding allows for loading out of centerbeam flats.

Bill

[railandsail]

About 6 months ago I posted a subject thread on this matter,..

"Logging Locos, Logging Trackplan, Logging Mill, Mainline pick-up"

It got deleted for photo problems, so I will try to resurrect it with new photos if you are interested?

Quite awhile back I set aside some spaces on my new double-deck layout plan to have some logging scenes.

I labeled them Logging Tracks & Logging Interchange


Even though both of these 'scenes' are interconnected, they both require individual design attention:

a) to the logging trains that gather up the downed trees and deliver them to the lumber mill,
b) the mill itself,
c) and finally placement of finished product on mainline cars for retail distribution

 

On this upper level I am proposing to put some logging tracks and trains running out the peninsula to its tip. There might be a very tight loop at the free end of the peninsula for the short logging locos to run. Or it might be just a back and forth operation for them. They will bring logs back to the saw mill scene at the trunk end of the peninsula (logging interchange). I have the whole Walthers saw mill kit(s) and would like to make this scene some sort of transfer of logs to cut/finished product that would be loaded onto mainline log cars and center-beam loaded cars, and a number of other wood carrying cars

At that point I let myself get stalled out thinking of details about this logging scene, and I went onto more pressing matters to getting some lower plywood decks cut out, and tracks laid in my helix, etc, etc. Now I am at a point where I want to finish up cutting out the deck plates for the upper level,...BUT I need to define what I intend to do about this whole logging area. I need some ideas, hopefully from folks interested in logging subjects.

PS: I'm using the Wathers kits also.

[Doughless]

rs2mike

hey guys and gals. I have the whole walthers sawmill complex with all the outbuildings and such. I Am drawing up a plan and am looking for ideas on building arrangements andtrack arrangements.  Please post pictures or ideas if you have any. 

 

Thanks

Mike

 

Since you asked the question, some degree of prototypical accuracy seems of interest to you.  So where you want to depart from that is up to you.  You did mention the year 2000.

I would say the least accurate way a modern sawmill would function would be to have logs arrive by rail.  Most mills would have the logs trucked in.  In fact, this is how the modern logging industry does it.  The industry isn't dead.  Just the transportation of logs by rail would have been dead by year 2000. Actually, pulpwod logs and telephone poles are still shipped by rail, but I don't think a full sawmill is needed to supply that function.

That leaves the sawmill being a shipper of lumber products by rail, and not a receiver of raw logs by rail.  The receiving portion of the mill would not have to be modeled, just the shipping part.

I would arrange the buildings in a way that focuses on shipping the product from the mill.

Also, I would say that the mill might specialize in a particular product, like plywood veneer, or board lumber, or both.  Evans 53 foot boxcars could be used for plywood veneer, and bulkhead flats or centerbeams could be used for wrapped board stock.

Sawmills produce wood chips that can be used for fuel or to make particle board.  Walthers produces those loaders in their "sawlill outbuildings" kit.  Walthers makes woodchip hoppers, the big 70 footers suited for the modern era, or the chips could be loaded by truck.  Walthers makes a woodchip trailer for trucks also.

If you want to have a sawmill in the year 2000 receive logs by rail, like with modern versions of geared diesels and logging cars, I got no suggestions.  

In comes logs, out goes product:

(Look at a pic of the box, which didn't copy to the forum)

 

[snjroy]

Douglas pretty much nailed this one with respect to the typical operation.  But there are interesting exceptions, like in Vancouver Island, where rail delivered lumber until very recently. Sure, you can model the typical prototype, but how could you resist those cool lumber cars ☺.

Simon

[Doughless]

snjroy

Douglas pretty much nailed this one with respect to the typical operation.  But there are interesting exceptions, like in Vancouver Island, where rail delivered lumber until very recently. Sure, you can model the typical prototype, but how could you resist those cool lumber cars ☺.

Simon

 

Thanks.  Your example probably relates better to the OPs question than mine.  

Actually, I'm not certain about the distinctions we use between logging railroad, sawmill, and lumber mill.

I think of a logging railroad as having tracks high in the mountains, where geared steam or early diesels in the 1950's take logs from the logging camps and transport them to the saw mills below.   I think that is the aspect many folks want to model, not so much what the sawmill produces and then transports to other businesses that might finish the lumber into more specific products. 

Frankly, if such an operation existed in the year 2000, I think the sawmill would be one simple, big, pole-type Rix/Pikestuff building with a bunch of dust collectors sitting on its roof.  There could be an overhead crane to unload the logs and place them on a conveyor that leads to storage piles, or directly into the mill building.  And there would still be woodchip piles or loaders in another area where the chips get transported by pipe from the mill to the chip pile/loader.

[railandsail]

Doughless

I think of a logging railroad as having tracks high in the mountains, where geared steam or early diesels in the 1950's take logs from the logging camps and transport them to the saw mills below.   I think that is the aspect many folks want to model, not so much what the sawmill produces and then transports to other businesses that might finish the lumber into more specific products.

I agree with your view Doughless. Thats what I tried to do with my design.

Perhaps I could have 2 different logging routes out into the forest,..along the length of the peninsula? Then both of those routes return to the cutting mill at the root of the peninsula,...and perhaps my gallows/a-frame turntable down in the vicinity of that saw mill? And maybe my little yard loco could transfer the cut wood over to another site where it would be packaged up and loaded onto big centerbeam cars, etc, for connection to mainline trains.

I've got a variety of steam locos picking up logs out in the woods and dumping them in a pond down at the Walthers saw mill. I believe I have also worked out a way for that pond to be a termination point for a stream coming down from the mountains on the other side of the saw mill (photo backdrop image) that will deliver floating logs to the rough cut saw mill.

Then a small steam engine (something like the old docksider) takes the cut wood over to a finishing plant (painted on the backdrop in a corner) to be finished  milled then loaded onto mainline log cars and center-beam loaded cars, and a number of other wood carrying cars that can run around the rest of the layout. that small mill loco will also place and pick up the wood chip cars.

On top of that I worked out a way to include a small gallows style turntable down next the the saw mill for the various steam logging locos.

[kasskaboose]

This discussion topic is very helpful.  I have the Walthers sawmill on my layout and good reading others wishing on replicating it.   Kudos to those branching out in putting down an industry that is far less commonplace.

[Doughless]

Having reread the OPs post, I see he is specifically wanting to use the Walthers Sawmill and outbuildings kits for a modern era mill, which I did not answer well before.

I think the main thing is that logs would likely not be shipped by water/river and floating in a pond, but would be trucked in from local sources.  A crane could lift the logs from the storage area onto the conveyor.

I don't think the age of the building matters.  I would think that a modern mill would use a simple PikeStuff pole bldg but the existing building from the kit could be plausible.

 I don't know what the little teepie looking building is to the rear, but the outbuildings kits have modern looking woodchip loaders.  Those and a few Pikestuff buildings could give the complex a modern flair.

[snjroy]

Yes, I believe the conic structure in the back is for sawdust. To my knowledge, the water pond was used to protect the wood from fire, and it was a natural lumber storage area for mills located near rivers. Here in Eastern Canada, lumber outfits cannot use rivers to transport logs for environmental reasons. And the risk for fire has practically disappeared with the use of modern machinery. So rivers and ponds are not part of the equation anymore, at least in our neck of the woods. But they were still used in the 1980's, if you are willing to extend your timeframe a bit. I really don't know about the US, but I suspect that the trends are similar. As mentioned by others, this kinda makes modern sawmills a bit more boring from a modeling perspective (especially for the steam guys). On the other hand, I would really love to build a working overhead crane for my layout, even though it would not really fit well for what I am modelling... Mine will be set in the 40s, with a tram system to feed to saw. I will post some pics on WPF in the next few weeks when I get the sawmill section closer to completion.

Simon

[Hillyard]

Hello Mike,

 

Some thoughts on logging up through 2000....

Canfor & Simpson both had logging operations into the 2000s era, using SW1200 type locos in multiple lashups.  There are back issue articles in both Trains magagzine and in Railfan & Railroad.  Simpson trains picked up loaded log cars at truck-fed reload areas, and transported to the mill.  Here in the Pacific NW, ponds were used for holding until sent into the mill.  The conical structure was used in earlier times for burning sawdust aka hog fuel. I always heard the structure referred to as a wigwam burner.  They are still around but not used.

BTW -I see someone else has recommended the Model Railroader book on the topic. In addition, I highly recommend:  

"Trains, Tracks & Tall Timber"- Matt Coleman; pub by Wm K Walthers

It has much valuable background info all in one piece, including model structures & some potential trackage arrangements for both paper & lumber mill operations.

[BRAKIE]

Walthers Mountain Lumber Company would ship  unfinished boards by either a 50' double door boxcar or by truck to a finishing mill..

The logs would be trucked in by independent loggers. I seriously doubt there would be a pond or river used by the mill due to EPA regulations..

Unloading the log trucks could be as simple as a large forklift.. The forklift operator would simply shove the logs off the truck after the driver removes the tie down chains and gets away from the unloading area.

[Hillyard]

rs2mike

Using the walthers mill. This is a smaller operation. Nothing like the big mondern sawmills. was more looking for how people have their mills set up. Track arrangements to mill and buildings and such

Mike and all,

I agree with the other comments that modern lumber operations typically deliver logs to the mill by truck, but you are free to choose.  It hasn't been mentioned, but the Walthers lumber mill closely resembles the Hull Oakes mill in Oregon.  Here's a link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idDUEYIyijQ

The first five minutes show: log delivery by truck; measuring the load at a scale; lifting the logs from the truck using a large log loader; dumping to the holding pond; herding the floating logs with a "log bronc"; and the lifting mechanism which feeds the logs from the pond to the sawmill.  The lifting mechanism resembles the same on the Walthers kit.

You asked about track and building arrangements. 
Here's a link to a model of the Hull Oakes operation:
http://dawson-station.blogspot.com/2009/10/layout-video-tours.html

Here's the track plan:
http://dawson-station.blogspot.com/2010/04/virtual-scale.html

You will see it's an Inglenook track plan.  This is similar to the  prototype. Here's one  of a five part series of rail/ mill operation at Hull Oakes.  Imbedded in them is a map showing the rail arrangement- about 18 seconds in.

Hope this helps with ideas for YOUR railroad.  Keep us posted on your progress.

 

[railandsail]

What variety of lumber loads do those centerbeam flat cars carry,....over the mainlines?

[Doughless]

railandsail

What variety of lumber loads do those centerbeam flat cars carry,....over the mainlines?

 

Any type of lumber sold in a big box store.  Its usually wrapped for shipping in the open air. They may even carry drywall, provided the wrapping is sufficently weatherproof.

In Newnan GA, there is a building products transload area.  Centerbeams drop off building products inside an open air lot enclosed with fencing.  No building storage.  Just stacks of wrapped products organized for truckloads.  (The satellite view from the "directions" tab is interesting to me.)

But this is more for a modern era scene.  

http://www.newnantransload.com/about.html

 

[rs2mike]

Sorry all I have been on the road for work, and when that happens I rarely get on the ole interwebs to look at anything. 

As far as equipement goes I will be running 4 mp-15 for the runs to the woods to gather wood cars.  I have 4 rs-11//12, rs-32 that will be running long haul freight on and off the layout and have rs-1/rs3-4  that will handle the runs to the in town businesses or be used on the tourist pax line.  I also have a couple box cabs that will be used as shop switchers and a bunch of snow removal equipement.  Maybe 2000 is too far into the future, maybe 1990 is more plausable timeframe. 

As far as the book is concerned, well it is on my night stand being reread for the 3-4 time.  It goes from steam to deasel era.  It has some good ideas but I was wondering what everyone had on their layout as far as arrangements of the kits mentioned. 

Well I think I am caught up with things.  I have a couple things drawn out but this website and my images dont get along as easly as other sites do.  Any questions on track arrangement or if you want to volunteer posting them for me drop me an email and I will get them to you.

mike

[railandsail]

Probably not applicable to your general plans, but since you are looking at lots of logging arrangements, here is one I'm working on

Logging Locos, Logging Track Plan, Logging Mill, then Mainline Pick-up
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/278029.aspx

Haven't worked out the 2 tracks out the peninsula into the woods yet.

[emdmike]

On my small layout, I am considering not modeling the mill at all, just the pond that feeds it.  Being trapped in a 4x8 with a couple shelf extensions, I am concentrating on a few other features, like a cut dimensional lumber load out for interchange, and the line up the mountain to the loading camp.  The "mill" will be right were I stand when I operate my layout.  The log pond being right above the control panel shelf on my layout.  I am modeling the steam era, Booth Kelly Lumber Co using a Mallet and a Willamette Shay, both NWSL brass imports.  Mike the Aspie