Greetings,
I recently picked up a NOS Proto 2000 GP7 on eBay for a very good price that included shipping. When it arrived I wasn't terribly surprised that it exhibited the common cracked axle gear ailment so I replaced all 4 axles with Walthers parts and she runs a lot quieter now.
[Comment: It was interesting to note that the crack ran parallel to the axle. On two of the four gears it was quite evident; with definite signs of it starting on a third. This is my first Proto 2000 with cracked gears so I was expecting the crack to be extend radially from the center of the gear rather than axially.]
I also installed a TCS LL8 motor-only decoder that basically is a drop-in decoder for the Proto 2000 GP7. The only thing I had to do was replace the front & rear incandescent bulbs with LEDs.
The problem I've run into is that the shell won't fully seat onto the chassis. I thought that the decoder board might be the culprit. Although it is slightly thinner than the original DC diode board that came with the locomotive, the base of the 8-pin connector has flanges so that the NRMA socket sits a little higher. I removed the decoder to see if the shell would sit lower but it didn't make any difference.
Okay, well...I just figured it out. The tabs on the shell fit into slots in the chassis. It just required a good steady squeeze and it snapped into place. I hope getting it apart again won't prove to be a challenge.
So thanks for the help, fellas. I coulda' done it without ya'.
On a serious note, has anyone else run into the same issue of a tight fit between the shell and chassis on these Proto 2000 GP7?
Thanks,
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Tom,
It's been a long time since mine have been apart (they're running NCE decoders) but they are a snug fit and the detailed nature of the shell encourages caution. In general the first place I look for snags is the lights, since that's where the human factor may require some brief adjustments, tucking in wiring, turning an LED just right, etc.
BTW, the axial cracking is typical on these gears.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Mike,
I forgot to mention that I did check for clearance of the LEDs to the end of the light pipes and wires to any pinch points - e.g. between the motor housing and the shell.
I've had "tight fit" problems when installing decoders into Proto engines (both the older LifeLike models and the newer Proto2000 by Walthers).
I've got a GP9 that I picked up used, had a decoder in it but it didn't work very well, so I thought it would be easy to use a small Soundtraxx MC1H102P8 (these are the same size as the 8-pin "harness" used in a lot of Proto 2000 GPs).
Well, the decoder worked fine, but the shell wouldn't go back on. The weight was "too high", and I didn't have the tools (or skill) to machine it down to size. Where could I put the decoder?
I found that at the front of the engine, a small "slice" of the locomotive weight was removable under the short hood. I took that off, and STILL had problems trying to get the shell on, because of the Lucite "extension" for the headlight, which was attached to the top of the shell.
I cut it out and just left enough Lucite for the number boards and light. Then the shell went back on, with the decoder "in" the cab area.
It's turned out to be one of my better runners.
I have a couple of Walthers Proto GP38s. On these I opted to remove the light board and put a Soundtraxx MC2H104at. Fits fine lengthwise, but it's a tight fit to get the shell back on. It fits, but just barely!
The coupler cut levers get trapped under the front edge, keeping the shell from seating all the way. I usually use the tip of a knife blade to sort of pry them out around the buffer detail. That's the only issue I've had with all 4 of my GP7s when putting them back together.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
IIRC, that Proto tabbed shell design causes the tabs to break almost the first time its installed. You'll be lucky if they are all in tact if you ever remove the shell again, and then the shell will just slide right on and off.
I think the coupler boxes still hold the shell to the frame, so you should be able to handle the loco without it sliding off.
- Douglas
Yes, I misremembered, the cut lever keeps the coupler box from sliding back in.
I don;t think the tabs are broken on any of mine, but the shell lifts right off with little effort once the coupler boxes (and 2 screws) are removed. I usually don't put the screws back in, the couple boxes alone hold it together.
A long time ago, I was looking into rehabbing my old BB Athearn geeps but it got expensive very fast. Then I found a couple of Protos, Walthers but actually old Lifelike stock, shortly after that buyout. They were DC, with no easy DCC conversion, but for $40 each they were well worth it.
I had to machine down the interior weight of one to put in a speaker and sound decoder. I replaced the headlights with LEDs while I was in there.
Yup, axles cracked on both, but that was an easy fix.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
rrinker Yes, I misremembered, the cut lever keeps the coupler box from sliding back in. I don;t think the tabs are broken on any of mine, but the shell lifts right off with little effort once the coupler boxes (and 2 screws) are removed. I usually don't put the screws back in, the couple boxes alone hold it together. --Randy
I suspect that when Tom said he had to give the shell a good nudge, he was probably seating the tabs in the slots in the frame and they cracked right at their base. They may hang on at first, but they'll be toast after taking off the shell a few times, IMO.
Doesn't matter, they are useless anyway.
Hmmm... I am suspecting the decoders must contribute to this situation.
.
I have painted 3 GP-9s and an SD-7 and had no problems with tight fitting shells. I run DC, so no decoders.
Mine are also all original Life-Like Proto-2000 units.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
SeeYou190Hmmm... I am suspecting the decoders must contribute to this situation.
Not in my case, Kevin. As mentioned in my original post, I removed the decoder (which replaced the original lightboard) completely and the shell still would not seat all the way flush with the chassis. So, that would eliminate both the decoder and/or the original lightboard as being the culprit since the NRMA socket hung lower because it was not inserted onto any of the 8-pins on either board.
tstageNot in my case, Kevin. As mentioned in my original post, I removed the decoder
Oh, I missed that detail. I saw the decoder was mentioned a lot in the responses.
If yours are Walthers P-2000 models, I wonder if there was a slight chnage from the Life-Like models.
Mine had cracked gears. It was definitely Life-Like...
tstageMine had cracked gears. It was definitely Life-Like...
That is interesting.
None of my Life-Like locomotives have had the cracked gears until the most recent purchase. I was really lucky I guess.
I finally found an Undecorated GP-7 with rooftop air tanks (torpedo tubes) mint in the box, and it does have cracked gears. I found that out when I test ran it.
I have not fixed it yet. I will wait until it is painted to take care of that chore.
This is my first Proto 2000 with cracked gears. Neither my Alco S1s, EMD F3, FM H10-44s, EMD SW8, GP38-2s, or any of my steam locomotives had the issue.
I opted to replace all four geared axles (Walthers PN #584408) rather than just the gears and it was a 10 min. job, tops. Now she runs very smoothly and quietly.
Now and then Walthers imports a batch of replacement wheel/axle sets for the old Proto2000 engines with the cracked gear problem. Then there comes a time when they are sold out and not available. As it happens they have them now
https://www.walthers.com/replacement-geared-driver-assembly-diesel-wheelset-pkg-2-for-early-proto-2000-r-bl-fa-gp7-9-18-20-30-60-proto-1000-tm-f3
Dave Nelson
I jus use the AThearn 60024 gears in mine. While I have it apart to install a decoder, I also take the truck covers off and clean out all the old grease, and switch the wheels o the new Athearn gears. No sense waiting for the inevitable cracking.
None of my S1s of FAs have had an issue, just the GP7s.
tstage This is my first Proto 2000 with cracked gears. Neither my Alco S1s, EMD F3, FM H10-44s, EMD SW8, GP38-2s, or any of my steam locomotives had the issue. I opted to replace all four geared axles (Walthers PN #584408) rather than just the gears and it was a 10 min. job, tops. Now she runs very smoothly and quietly. Tom
Pretty sure the S1 did not come out until after the gear problem was corrected or only some runs effected.
F units are all after Walthers ownership and have redesigned truck with different gear ratio, no cracked gears.
H10-44, not sure but I think those were also after the problem had been fixed and close to Walthers taking ownership.
SW8, GP38-2 - simply depends on which production run.
Steam engines - not effected at all to my knowledge.
Very limited problems were reported with some batches of E units and PA units.
Sheldon
dknelsonNow and then Walthers imports a batch of replacement wheel/axle sets for the old Proto2000 engines with the cracked gear problem. Then there comes a time when they are sold out and not available. As it happens they have them now
Athearn also makes ready-to-use wheel/axle/bearing assemblies that drop right into these models. So that can also be an option.
The new wheel on these are also quite an improvement for older Athearn Blue-Box locomotives.
ATLANTIC CENTRALVery limited problems were reported with some batches of E units and PA units.
I managed to wind up with three PAs that were made with the high-current draw motors. Just one thing to watch for buying N.O.S. PAs. They pulled somewhere north of 3 Amps. Something to watch for if you are planning to install a decoder.
I don't recall ever having any drive-line issues with P2K or Walthers Proto E units. Some of mine are twenty-plus years old and still pulling strong
Cheers, Ed
gmpullmanI managed to wind up with three PAs that were made with the high-current draw motors. Just one thing to watch for buying N.O.S. PAs. They pulled somewhere north of 3 Amps.
Good heavens! I never heard of this problem. I thought my Troller 2.5 amp packs would easliy handle any HO locomotive, even older brass with Pitmann motors.
I guess I will stick to my Athearn PAs with NWSL repower kits.
SeeYou190Good heavens! I never heard of this problem.
Some information here and a mention of which models may have been affected:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/p/244687/2726349.aspx?page=1
Good Luck, Ed
gmpullmanSome information here and a mention of which models may have been affected:
Ed. Thank you for the link.
I rea through the thread. It seems that under normal operating they draw a lower current, and the biggest concern in with DCC decoders.
Since I run straight DC with 2.5 amp Troller packs, I might not have an issue.
A 3 amp motor is a 3 amp motor, regardless of the power source.
If you only run one at a time, you'll probably be OK witht he 2.5 amp power pack, since it won't cut power instantly. But if you are trying to run more than one of the high current versions with a single power pack - good luck.
From what I read it only draws that high of a current when in full stall.
If it draws 1 amp under normal load (like the thread seemed to indicate), then I should not have an issue with a double header. If it goes to full stall, the internal breaker in the Troller 2.5 will open, and the OVERLOAD lamp will illuminate, but no decoder will fry.
What am I missing?
If I am wrong, that is OK. I have been wrong before, I would only like to know how to correct my thoughts on this one.
I appologize if this comes across as argumentative. That is not my intention. I want to learn as much as I can, and not melt any locomotive shells in the process.
I need to test my two E units as some point and see what they have. The thread indicated some Es have the high current motor as well.
tstage This is my first Proto 2000 with cracked gears. Neither my Alco S1s, EMD F3, FM H10-44s, EMD SW8, GP38-2s, or any of my steam locomotives had the issue. Tom
That's because those locos don't have the Athearn BB based trucks. They have Kato clone trucks (not sure about the F3).
Simple diagnosis:
Simply turn over any LL loco and see if the truck looks like an Athearn BB. If it does, it has cracked gears (or will very soon, unless they have already been replaced by a former owner of course). If it doesn't look like an Athearn BB truck, then it doesn't have cracked gears. (unless you got a 1 in a million lemon)
ATLANTIC CENTRAL....Steam engines - not effected at all to my knowledge....
I bought this "used" Proto 2000 "Heritage" USRA 0-8-0 at a nearby hobby shop...
....but was disappointed to discover that it was a very poor puller, managing only four cars-or-so on a grade in the area I had planned to use it. It's from the early release, and has no current pick-up on the tender.
I decided to take it apart to see if there was any place internally to add weight, and discovered a miniscule flywheel and an overly-large circuit board for the headlight. I couldn't imagine that a flywheel of that size would have any positive effect on performance, and since locomotives in my late '30s modelled-era didn't use headlights in daytime, I removed both, replacing them with lead to fill all of the available spaces. The improvement in performance was enough to convince me to keep it, and I stripped off pretty well all of the locos detail, including the undersize piping that otherwise looked so good. (It's my thought that the die makers were working from prototype blueprints and weren't aware that the nominal pipe sizes shown refer the the pipe's inside diameter, hence the undersize piping.
Working from photos of CNR's P-5-h switchers, I lengthened the frame at the front end to accommodate the CNR-style handrails and modified the rear frame, too. All of the undersize piping was removed, then the running boards lowered, with new inboard-mounted air tanks (lead-filled brass tubing) installed. The new piping is brass wire, with a few Cal-Scale and PSC details added. The front tender steps were modified, and new footboards, on both loco and tender, built-up from strip and sheet brass. The tender got new CNR-style handrails and a scratchbuilt ladder.
The additonal weight from the air tanks and other details improved the pulling power even more, and the loco was a very reliable runner, even with power pick-up on the locomotive only. The modified loco, when attempting to move more than its capabilities allow, will readily slip its drivers, always a good safety measure to consider when adding weight to any locomotive.However, one day while operating this locomotive, I began to hear a clicking as it moved....the operation was still smooth, but having heard about the gear issues with many of the Proto diesels, I immediately suspected the same problem.
Disassembly confirmed my suspicions, and, because I had not heard of any problems with the Proto steamers, decided to attempt to repair it myself.It has been some time since that repair was done, and I've had no further issues with the locomotive, but I don't recall all the details of the repair.
I do remember that the axle gear was the one cracked, and that it had an integral hub on one side of that gear, obviously also cracked. The hub, with the gear manually-compressed to close the crack, was of a diameter just slightly larger than the inside diameter of a stock size of readily available brass tubing. After measuring the inside diameter of the tubing, I selected a numbered drill bit just slightly larger, and using it in a pin vise, reamed-out one end of a length of tubing. This process was repeated a couple of times, each with the next larger drill bit, until it matched (or was extremely close to) the diameter of the hub. After cutting off a suitable length of tubing, the gear was manually squeezed to close the gap, and I used a small vise to press the tubing over the hub.
If anybody else has experienced this problem with Proto steamers, and a replacement gear is not available, this fix does work. My apologies for not having more specific details of the process available.
Wayne