Doughless ctyclsscs You folks are way overthinking this. The architecture doesn't matter. You're not actually supposed to BUILD FSM kits. They're collectibles. Just like the limited edition Hot Wheels cars or Beanie Babies. You just put them in a closet to proudly show everyone "Look what I have." You never, ever, open the package or touch it so that you can sell it and make a fortune twenty years from now. Or...maybe not. Jim Everyone? LOL. The number of model railroading friends that I would invite to look at the contents of my closet amount to the total of.....0... That's a lot of money spent to impress nobody. Maybe I'll meet Kevin at the Atlanta Train Show this Saturday, but I'm still not inviting him over to look at my closet.
ctyclsscs You folks are way overthinking this. The architecture doesn't matter. You're not actually supposed to BUILD FSM kits. They're collectibles. Just like the limited edition Hot Wheels cars or Beanie Babies. You just put them in a closet to proudly show everyone "Look what I have." You never, ever, open the package or touch it so that you can sell it and make a fortune twenty years from now. Or...maybe not. Jim
You folks are way overthinking this. The architecture doesn't matter. You're not actually supposed to BUILD FSM kits. They're collectibles. Just like the limited edition Hot Wheels cars or Beanie Babies. You just put them in a closet to proudly show everyone "Look what I have." You never, ever, open the package or touch it so that you can sell it and make a fortune twenty years from now. Or...maybe not.
Jim
Everyone? LOL.
The number of model railroading friends that I would invite to look at the contents of my closet amount to the total of.....0...
That's a lot of money spent to impress nobody.
Maybe I'll meet Kevin at the Atlanta Train Show this Saturday, but I'm still not inviting him over to look at my closet.
You build a replica hobby store and desplay them in glass cases.
Instead if inviting people to see your layout, you invite them to see your "Hobby Store"
After all, everyone has a layout, but not very many have a replica hobby store.
Paul
I have a friend named Chris that collected 10 times the hobby stuff he would ever need, and actually opened a make-shift hobby shop in his garage on weekends.
.
Pretty much nothing sold, but he invited everyone to come over and look at his wares.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
I think some folks underestimate the severity of the Great Depression. Even if “only” 25% of the population was unemployed, a very large number of those working were underemployed. And while prices had dropped 20%, wages had fallen 40%. A great many people dropped out of school to earn what they could either for the family pot or to relive their families of a financial burden. (Only 25% of WW2 enlisted men were high school grads). Railroad carloadings, tonnage and passenger traffic dropped over 50% on most roads and there were large number of furloughs. Some railroads, like the DL&W, cut shop forces to half time rather than lay men off. Half a job is better than none but it’s a real drop in pay.
My parents both grew up largely during the Depression, both being born in 1920. My mom was from the Kensington section of Philadelphia and my dad grew up on a dairy farm in Minnesota. Neither of them sat around crying how tough it was but did offer a realistic view. My dad enlisted in the Navy upon graduation from high school in 1938 and said there were ten guys in line for every opening in the ranks. Room and board and $26 a month was a strong draw for a single guy, not to mention getting away from the drudgery of farm work. Ironicly he always laughed about the contrast between milking cows or baling hay and working as a stoker while locked in a 125 degree engine room. In combat an officer stood watching, armed, to make sure nobody forgot their duty. My mom left school early to do factory work. Everybody in the family old enough to work did, turning their earnings over to my grandparents, who were from the Old Country. They goals were basic, get the house paid off so no landlord could put you on the street, keep everybody fed and clothed, save when you could even if it meant doing without something you wanted. Their pleasures were simple, cold beer, card games, movies and once in a while a trip on the PRSL down the shore. In the Navy my dad’s past times were somewhat “earthier”.
My mom didn’t complain about conditions very much but the hard times left my mom with a few life lessons she passed on to us: Faith, frugality but not cheapness, education of some kind either trade school or college.
The Depression didn’t really end until WW2 heated things up but even in 1941 unemployment was around 16%. But the general dilapidation we often think of pervading everything back then is an exaggeration. People had pride and didn’t let Their property, especially their homes, fall apart. Labor was cheap and if you had money things really worked in your favor.
b60bpI think some folks underestimate the severity of the Great Depression.
Not to mention the double-whammy of the dust bowl.
Browse the digital collection of photographs at the Library of Congress and it doesn't take long to turn up quite a few "selios-like" scenes.
Sure, not everywhere but there was still quite a bit of "defered maintenance".
Regards, Ed
b60bp think some folks underestimate the severity of the Great Depression.
Yet,life went on..Trains still hauling passengers and freight,automobiles being built,new buildings being built,railroads was buying new freight cars. I think the depression was overly estimate throughout history. Like today some of those unemployed may not have wanted to take a job out of their professional level.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
b60bp I think some folks underestimate the severity of the Great Depression. Even if “only” 25% of the population was unemployed, a very large number of those working were underemployed. And while prices had dropped 20%, wages had fallen 40%. A great many people dropped out of school to earn what they could either for the family pot or to relive their families of a financial burden. (Only 25% of WW2 enlisted men were high school grads). Railroad carloadings, tonnage and passenger traffic dropped over 50% on most roads and there were large number of furloughs. Some railroads, like the DL&W, cut shop forces to half time rather than lay men off. Half a job is better than none but it’s a real drop in pay. My parents both grew up largely during the Depression, both being born in 1920. My mom was from the Kensington section of Philadelphia and my dad grew up on a dairy farm in Minnesota. Neither of them sat around crying how tough it was but did offer a realistic view. My dad enlisted in the Navy upon graduation from high school in 1938 and said there were ten guys in line for every opening in the ranks. Room and board and $26 a month was a strong draw for a single guy, not to mention getting away from the drudgery of farm work. Ironicly he always laughed about the contrast between milking cows or baling hay and working as a stoker while locked in a 125 degree engine room. In combat an officer stood watching, armed, to make sure nobody forgot their duty. My mom left school early to do factory work. Everybody in the family old enough to work did, turning their earnings over to my grandparents, who were from the Old Country. They goals were basic, get the house paid off so no landlord could put you on the street, keep everybody fed and clothed, save when you could even if it meant doing without something you wanted. Their pleasures were simple, cold beer, card games, movies and once in a while a trip on the PRSL down the shore. In the Navy my dad’s past times were somewhat “earthier”. My mom didn’t complain about conditions very much but the hard times left my mom with a few life lessons she passed on to us: Faith, frugality but not cheapness, education of some kind either trade school or college. The Depression didn’t really end until WW2 heated things up but even in 1941 unemployment was around 16%. But the general dilapidation we often think of pervading everything back then is an exaggeration. People had pride and didn’t let Their property, especially their homes, fall apart. Labor was cheap and if you had money things really worked in your favor.
I for one never said there was not a lot of hardship and human suffering during the depression, there was. But as you said in your last sentence, the world did not just "fall apart" mechanically and structurally overnight, or in three years, or even 10 years.
It is that characterization that EVRYTHING was a dump and no one even picked up the trash, or cut the grass, or fixed a leaky roof, by Sellios and others I find disingenuous and distasteful.
They may be trying to "convey" the human suffering, but the message does not ring true for me.
Human suffering exists amid the shiniest new buildings, and in the dirtiest slums, in the hearts and minds of the poorest and the richest people. It has little to do with the physical condition of a building or a highway.
I for one am not building models to convey some deep social message about the human conditon. In fact I build models to relax from the pressures of the human condition.
Sheldon
I sometimes have the feeling, that even back then in those days of utter poverty in many a family, things were tidier and cleaner compared to our days. Maybe it was because people had to make do with what they had, taking more care - within their means of course.
Happy times!
Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)
"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"
b60bpI think some folks underestimate the severity of the Great Depression. Even if “only” 25% of the population was unemployed, a very large number of those working were underemployed.
Probably those folks didn't have family members who talked about the "olden days". I imagine quite a few here did have family members with parents who talked about those day. Anyone with parents who lived it and were told about it first hand probably have a fair idea of it. My mother talked about it a lot in the 60's and 70's when I was growing up - their lives in rural Iowa were typical of children who were born in 1930/31, growing up in the pre-WWII great depression era, and probably is the reason they have always been so fiscally prudent, unlike generatons who came after.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Tinplate ToddlerI sometimes have the feeling, that even back then in those days of utter poverty in many a family, things were tidier and cleaner compared to our days.
At least the front walk was swept.
Sweeping by Edmund, on Flickr
Russell Lee
Sorry, Ed - may be I shot too quickly without aiming properly. In my country, the depression was as bad as in the US, maybe even worse, but you´d have never seen anything like that.
gmpullman b60bp I think some folks underestimate the severity of the Great Depression. Not to mention the double-whammy of the dust bowl. Browse the digital collection of photographs at the Library of Congress and it doesn't take long to turn up quite a few "selios-like" scenes. Sure, not everywhere but there was still quite a bit of "defered maintenance". Regards, Ed
b60bp I think some folks underestimate the severity of the Great Depression.
Yes, the dust bowl is credited with making the depression much longer and worse then it otherwise might have been. And sure, an abandoned farm will look pretty shabby in just a few years.
BUT, today I live on the edge of a little town called Havre de Grace, MD. A 250 year old spot where the Susquehanna River meets the Chesapeake Bay. A place full of history and old buildings. Today, in a good economy, you can find buildings in every possible condition, from freshly rehabbed modest housing, to perfectly restored classic homes of the upper middle class, to buildings about to fall down, and everything in between.
It has little to with the overall economy, or the social conditions of the population as a whole. Each building is it's own micro story only partly influenced by the big picture of world or national economics.
Our town has a wide range of incomes, and a very culturally diverse population. But rich or poor, most everyone takes pride in where they live, the poorest streets are as clean as the richest ones, and life is good on the Chesapeake.
I restore old buildings for a living, I know a lot about architectural history and how buildings age. My views on this are based on that knowledge.
And again, yes, some people and some areas had it really bad, others not so much. But not everybody and everything, instantly a wreck like Sellios depicts.
I think layouts need a theme to hold them together.
In downtown Fort Myers there are building 100 years old right next to new construction. The only Queen Anne Mansion in Fort Myers (The Burroughs Home) is right across the street from a 1950's run down hotel. You can see mismatched scenery all over the country.
However, a layout is small, and it MUST have a them and commonality of appearance to look right. The FS&M is a magnificent layout that depicts an area hard hit by despair and depression.
Real life does not always make effective scenery. A theme and sense of atmosphere does.
Just look at trees. In reality poorly shaped and deformed trees are everywhere, but on out layouts they are all pristine with straight trunks and nice foliage. Our trees fit out theme.
These scenes are real, but I think they would all look silly on a layout.
Getting back to how this relates to FSM kits. The photos show dilapidated housing, that was not uncommon in the USA, especially remote rural areas. The issue is, did every house look like that everywhere in the USA even during the Great Depression?
As has been mentioned, 1920's went gangbusters. Brand new housing, and the condition of the houses don't fall dramatically just because the stock market does.
If every FSM kit mimics that type of building, then they basically have concentrated their efforts in one, and only one, style. So prices are beginning to reflect that lack of diversity.
Has FSM ever thought about branching out and creating a modern concrete warehouse, with lots of fine details? Roof details, caged ladders, safety striping and signage decals, steps and railings all over the place? Brand new and shiny?
- Douglas
SeeYou190 I think layouts need a theme to hold them together. . In downtown Fort Myers there are building 100 years old right next to new construction. The only Queen Anne Mansion in Fort Myers (The Burroughs Home) is right across the street from a 1950's run down hotel. You can see mismatched scenery all over the country. . However, a layout is small, and it MUST have a them and commonality of appearance to look right. The FS&M is a magnificent layout that depicts an area hard hit by despair and depression. . Real life does not always make effective scenery. A theme and sense of atmosphere does. . Just look at trees. In reality poorly shaped and deformed trees are everywhere, but on out layouts they are all pristine with straight trunks and nice foliage. Our trees fit out theme. . These scenes are real, but I think they would all look silly on a layout. . . . . -Kevin .
Well, my experiance touring the basement empires of the Mid Atlantic tells me many modelers have done a great job of realistically blending old and new, rich and poor, cared for and neglected, to a great effect.
I think realism does play well on a model layout, as does subtle weathering that takes into account our extended viewing distance as giants who's viewpoint is typically 200 feet away or more.
Even moderately neglected stuff often looks ok from a distance.
But we should all model what suits us.....
Doughless Has FSM ever thought about branching out and creating a modern concrete warehouse, with lots of fine details? Roof details, caged ladders, safety striping and signage decals, steps and railings all over the place? Brand new and shiny?
I do miss the really nice FSM full page ads in MR, they were generally rather impressive.
chutton01here were brick, stone and concrete industrial buildings in the 1930s (heck, pre WWI), did FSM ever issue kits like that?
Yes, Fine Scale Miniatures did several buildings with brick or stone sections. The hand carved stone sections they produced were beauties.
I live in a very afluent area overall. When I young, the other side of the track had real meaning and by the tracks were grubby. If you drive by you miss the details. You got to walk the streets to really see things. I walked the rails to school when young (gee I miss walking the rails), you see the real world by the tracks. Mostly cleaned up now. Back to the depresion, my dad started driving delivery truck, at age 12, I am sure illegal even back then. There are areas affected by the last recesion that sure look like worse but mainly small towns or heavy manufacturing areas. Even 35 years ago in Baltimore, there were whole streets that looked like they belonged in a FSM diarama. Anyone but me ever live next to a getto and walk the sreets to get places, I mean dirt and grime were everywhere and the clean people had moved on for the most part. My first renovation praject was in such an area, most of the houses on my block were boarded up or broke into and trashed and the ones that weren't didn't look to nice either. My place was broken into a few times before it was all bared and then allarmed (bars didn't work as well as hoped). I worked in even worse areas as my full time job.
gmpullman Tinplate Toddler I sometimes have the feeling, that even back then in those days of utter poverty in many a family, things were tidier and cleaner compared to our days. At least the front walk was swept. Sweeping by Edmund, on Flickr Russell Lee Regards, Ed
Tinplate Toddler I sometimes have the feeling, that even back then in those days of utter poverty in many a family, things were tidier and cleaner compared to our days.
In the 1920's and 30's, in places like rural Appalachia, there were people that poor BEFORE the depression.
rrebell I live in a very afluent area overall. When I young, the other side of the track had real meaning and by the tracks were grubby. If you drive by you miss the details. You got to walk the streets to really see things. I walked the rails to school when young (gee I miss walking the rails), you see the real world by the tracks. Mostly cleaned up now. Back to the depresion, my dad started driving delivery truck, at age 12, I am sure illegal even back then. There are areas affected by the last recesion that sure look like worse but mainly small towns or heavy manufacturing areas. Even 35 years ago in Baltimore, there were whole streets that looked like they belonged in a FSM diarama. Anyone but me ever live next to a getto and walk the sreets to get places, I mean dirt and grime were everywhere and the clean people had moved on for the most part. My first renovation praject was in such an area, most of the houses on my block were boarded up or broke into and trashed and the ones that weren't didn't look to nice either. My place was broken into a few times before it was all bared and then allarmed (bars didn't work as well as hoped). I worked in even worse areas as my full time job.
Yes, some parts of Baltimore (Detroit, Philly, Newark, Harrisburg, etc, etc, etc) look like war zones, and six blocks away are million dollar homes and thriving businesses.
None of that is exclusive to the depression.
Well, since this thread has turned to the Great Depression...
My Grandmother and Grandfather were in there 20s during the Depression and both worked for the State of Wisconsin. They had good jobs, bought land, and made a fortune.
My grandfather volunteered for service at the beginning of World War 2, and was crippled by a Nazi in France.
He could never work again, but he still had a good life with all the money they made off their investments during the depression.
Had an aquintance whose family made their fortune during the great depresion. They had a small amount of cash and during those times, cash was king and they bought a ton of property at rock bottom low prices because of that. People who had cash during the last downturn could have made a fortune (unfortinatly I was fully invested at the time so no cash available).
Another low price on BrassTrains for the model I use as my "standard" caboose model for the STRATTON AND GILLETTE.
I guess without me buying up every one of these demand has fallen.
SeeYou190These scenes are real, but I think they would all look silly on a layout.
I don't think they would look silly at all. They remind me of Pelle Soeborg's Daneville on one of his previous layouts https://www.soeeborg.dk/ .
I think this scene is effective modeling, despite (or maybe because of) the lack of structures with over the top character.
A similar approach can be seen in much of Lance Mindheim's work, like his Miami Downtown Spur https://lancemindheim.com/model-railroads/ :
I think many of us relate far more to what Pelle and Lance are doing than to the style of modeling exeplified by Sellios. One approach isn't necessarily better, but now there's a geater variety than the modeling world of decades past where FSM was so aspirational.
Rob Spangler
chutton01 Doughless Has FSM ever thought about branching out and creating a modern concrete warehouse, with lots of fine details? Roof details, caged ladders, safety striping and signage decals, steps and railings all over the place? Brand new and shiny? Isn't FSM officially done, having issued a "last" kit (I.M. Dunn) awhile back. I wouldn't think a modern warehouse as you described (say 1960s and later) would fit with the company's mindset back in its heyday, but there were brick, stone and concrete industrial buildings in the 1930s (heck, pre WWI), did FSM ever issue kits like that? They would have been relatively new if built in the 1920s for a depression era layout, would likely be in good repair and so on. Only problem is they might have been more caricature than real looking, in the same way that (IMO) the "large" industrial buildings in current Menard's HO line are. I do miss the really nice FSM full page ads in MR, they were generally rather impressive.
Isn't FSM officially done, having issued a "last" kit (I.M. Dunn) awhile back. I wouldn't think a modern warehouse as you described (say 1960s and later) would fit with the company's mindset back in its heyday, but there were brick, stone and concrete industrial buildings in the 1930s (heck, pre WWI), did FSM ever issue kits like that? They would have been relatively new if built in the 1920s for a depression era layout, would likely be in good repair and so on. Only problem is they might have been more caricature than real looking, in the same way that (IMO) the "large" industrial buildings in current Menard's HO line are.
I realized that FSM stopped producing new kits. Did not know it was that long ago, how time flies.
But the drop in prices really is no surprise. The number of modelers modeling such era has probably diminished as time moves on, and there are more choices to model.
A good point was made about Menard's structures. I think their industrial buildings are a caricacture of the real thing. Sort of a modern day FSM building, with less detail.
DoughlessIf every FSM kit mimics that type of building, then they basically have concentrated their efforts in one, and only one, style. So prices are beginning to reflect that lack of diversity. Has FSM ever thought about branching out and creating a modern concrete warehouse, with lots of fine details? Roof details, caged ladders, safety striping and signage decals, steps and railings all over the place?
Has FSM ever thought about branching out and creating a modern concrete warehouse, with lots of fine details? Roof details, caged ladders, safety striping and signage decals, steps and railings all over the place?
They never did, but that's not their thing. The above unfinished scene on my layout shows a kitbashed modern industry like what you're describing. It's almost entirely styrene. This style of building really doesn't fit with how FSM and makers of similar kits do things (wood, metal castings, paper, plaster brick or stonework, etc.) Might as well leave the modern industry modeling to manufacturers that already supply the stuff such kits need (and FSM is out of business anyway).
The above having been said, there are exceptions. For example, Blair Line http://www.blairline.com/farmersfertilizer/ has this laser cut wood kit for a fertilizer business. It's a craftsman structure that would still work on a modern layout.
wp8thsubI don't think they would look silly at all. They remind me of Pelle Soeborg's Daneville on one of his previous layouts
The silliness does not come from the era or area modeled.
The pictures I posted contain (1) Brick painted to look like plastic, (2) A ridiculously narrow mismatched addition and gaudy awning colors, and (3) very mixed architecture on the same row of buildings.
Any of these, even if modeled accurately, would look silly.
The pictures of Soeborg's layout you posted look amazing. The first picture shows arows of building that look like they belong together. That was the point of my post.
If you build an entire scene with FSM models, you will have a scene with structures that look like they belong there. Adding a pristine iron front building would look out of place, even though it would have been built in that era. Mixing things around, even though it happens in real life, is unconvincing in miniature.
It would also look silly to add this "Euro-Styled" building to a small town in Georgia on a layout, even though that is exactly where it is. No, it is not in Helen.
SeeYou190The pictures I posted contain (1) Brick painted to look like plastic, (2) A ridiculously narrow mismatched addition and gaudy awning colors, and (3) very mixed architecture on the same row of buildings. Any of these, even if modeled accurately, would look silly.
I'd say anything in those photos, if done well, would look perfectly fine on a model. Even that faux-European building would work. It's all in the execution.
wp8thsub Doughless If every FSM kit mimics that type of building, then they basically have concentrated their efforts in one, and only one, style. So prices are beginning to reflect that lack of diversity. Has FSM ever thought about branching out and creating a modern concrete warehouse, with lots of fine details? Roof details, caged ladders, safety striping and signage decals, steps and railings all over the place? They never did, but that's not their thing. The above unfinished scene on my layout shows a kitbashed modern industry like what you're describing. It's almost entirely styrene. This style of building really doesn't fit with how FSM and makers of similar kits do things (wood, metal castings, paper, plaster brick or stonework, etc.) Might as well leave the modern industry modeling to manufacturers that already supply the stuff such kits need (and FSM is out of business anyway). The above having been said, there are exceptions. For example, Blair Line http://www.blairline.com/farmersfertilizer/ has this laser cut wood kit for a fertilizer business. It's a craftsman structure that would still work on a modern layout.
Doughless If every FSM kit mimics that type of building, then they basically have concentrated their efforts in one, and only one, style. So prices are beginning to reflect that lack of diversity. Has FSM ever thought about branching out and creating a modern concrete warehouse, with lots of fine details? Roof details, caged ladders, safety striping and signage decals, steps and railings all over the place?
Nice work Rob.
Yes, I am aware of the Blair Line Fert Bldg, and have considered that, but its a bit too small as it is.
Walthers and Rix (PikeStuff) are two companies that produce modern kits. And there are caged ladders from Plastruct, which I think Walthers also uses in some kits that call for them. They reuse the same parts from kit to kit, which I like.
Modern buildings go to the same sources for walls, panels, cages, silos etc; so different buildings used for different purposes still have a similar look to them, albeit the stuff is arranged differently.
What I was trying to say about FSM is that they (he) has always had just one style, and the buildings are fairly specific with no real ability to be repurposed other than what it was designed for. The product is more narrow.
Contrast that with Pikestuff, who produce basically nothing but wall panels and roof panels, where their kits just arrage the same parts differently, and modelers can use those parts to build a structure for just about any kind of use. Like you did. That ability seems like it creates constant demand for their products, and longevity.
There is an industrial building I think Rob has, IIRC is no longer made, or the parts he used come from a company out of business now. Shame as I'd love to add something along similar lines to a layout I am planning. Can't think of the name right now.