Stay Alives Brands

[Bigjim7]

I really like the stay alive super capistors. My latest Scale Train rivet counter has them. My track is very clean and works great' but having stay alive really is neat. What other Brand has them included in their Locos. Thanks

[tstage]

Jim,

While not a locomotive "brand", TCS (the originator of the keep-alive module) has several different capacitor sizes to purchase or choose from - i.e. should you ever want to add one to an existing decoder.

Tom

[richg1998]

This might not answer all your questions as there are issues with "keep alive" as you will find out.

https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/decoders/keep-alive-compatibility

Rich

[mbinsewi]

Thanks for that link Rich.  His web site looks like a keeper in my bookmarks.

Mike.

[Bigjim7]

Thanks' that article tells more than I ever could know. I assume most new Sound Locos have them. Thanks

[rrinker]

 A few do, most still do not. I doon;t think they are necessary. It's a band-aid over the real problem. None of my locos have them, sound or otherwise, and I've never had an issue, even with the frogs not powered. Wait, I do have one - my new Walthers Plymouth switcher has one (no sound) but I haven't run that loco on a layout yet, I'm between layouts at the moment. I suspect this tiny little thing might actually need it, as the wheelbase is I think SMALLER than a #6 frog. But all others, down to my previous smallest loco, a bachmann 44 tonner, handled unpowered frogs with no problems. 

 The simple 2 wire ones I think are in many cases overdone - the Plymouth is a good example. I can take the thing off the test track and put it on my plastic desk mat and run it like a windup toy for probably 30 seconds. There's NO reaon to ever need that much. That's asking for trouble - and using long keep alives precludes using a dead track siding in a staging area to stop the loco. The 3 wire types like ESU's Power Pack cost more, but they offer numerous advantages - disabling during programming and setting a maximum keep alive duration are the main ones. You cna configure them so that regardless of remaining energy, it only keeps the loco moving for a few seconds without DCC signal. Plenty to cross unpowered frogs. The excess capacity is used here more to supply power when the loco is heavily loaded than to make it run for the longest time without power input.

 But I haven't had problems with even #6 unpowered frogs - my diesels are all 8 wheel pickup (I only have one 6 axle unit) and all wheels really are picking up power - so there are always wheels on both rails that are on powered track. I have a couple of steamers, but those are modern ones that pick up on both sides of the loco and both sides of the tender. I've discovered bad wiring by not having an artificial means of keeping the loco running - a loose wire in a PCM T1 kept one side of the tender from supllying power, so it would occasionally hesitate. Repairing that - runs fine. And an Athearn RTR RS-3 had no pickup from one side of one truck - a first thought due to contact issues so I soldered a wire in place, but it seems more like it is the palstic part of the truck is preventing the axles busings from touching the metal part. A second unit had no problems, so I swapped shells and put the bad one in the repair drawer. Yes, a keep alive would also 'fix' it - but it really wouldn;t be fixed, it still has pickup from only 2 wheels on one side. All I have to do is stop it with the two good wheels on a dirty spot (we don;t stop trains right in the moddle of turnouts, do we?) and it won't move again until nudged - keep alive or no keep alive. 

 The club layout, which is a modular (really sectioonal) setup, there keep alives could come in handy, but again just to cover a design defficiency. The older sections connect together with the typical short 'fitter' sections of track. Some of these are as much as 6" long - and unpowered except by (loose, many times reused) rail joiners - so there are dead spots every 8 feet or so, of between 3 and 6 inches. Every train runs at least doouble headed to keep it moving. Keep alives would fix that, but without fixing the real problem. I like fixing the actual problem, not covering it up.

                                   --Randy

 

[wjstix]

As Tom touches on in his reply, the decoder company that a manufacturer chooses to use determines which keep-alive device is installed, if any. As far as I know, there is no HO model engine manufacturer who also makes decoders. (MRC used to make engines, but I think they had stopped before MRC started offering decoders?) For sound engines, some companies use ESU decoders, some TCS, and some use Soundtraxx, each of which has their own version of the keep-alive technology.

BTW TCS has non-sound decoders with a built-in keep alive, it's not an external device. Not sure if any other companies offer that? Most are a separate unit connected to the decoder.

[maxman]

wjstix

As far as I know, there is no HO model engine manufacturer who also makes decoders.

Soundtraxx makes (or has someone make for them like everybody else) Blackstone HOn3 locos.

[rrinker]

 Broadway Limited locos use their own design decoder - both the Paragon II and Paragon III series are their own decoder. Onl their original first run locos over 10 years ago now used QSI, and their brief offshoot Precicion Craft Models used ESU decoders. Blueline DC/Sound locos and Paragonn II and III are all BLI's proprietary decoders in BLI tooled models.

 And MTH - their locos use their own proprietary DCS decoders which are in varying amounts DCC compatible as well - the newer the model, the more DCC features it tends to have.

 And ESU now has a line of locos - you can see them on their web site. Not sure if you can get them in the US yet, but they are mostly German loco prototypes.

                                 --Randy

 

[hon30critter]

I use ESU Loksound Select Micro decoders with their Power Pack keep alives in my two and three axle critters and they work great. Without the keep alives the tiny locomotives would tend to stall on frogs, and dirty track was a problem. With the keep alives they soldier on regardless. At one point I was going to put keep alives in all my locomotives but, as Sheldon suggests, it is a waste of time and money on the four and six axle units.

Dave

[Bigjim7]

Thanks lots of good info. To me it should be a industry standard for DCC locos with sound.

[riogrande5761]

Bigjim7

Thanks lots of good info. To me it should be a industry standard for DCC locos with sound.

There is should be, and then there is what is. 

That said, ScaleTrains rivet counter engines apparently all come with power packs, the ESU version of keep alive. 

I would guess in time, more companies will be offering them pre-installed.  We aren't there yet but things are moving in that direction.  I'd imagine this will more or less eliminate the need for "dead rail".

[rrinker]

 I find it interesting they they are on high end models - well, no one will pay the extra cost in an economy model - but I really don;t think a lot of the people buying the high end models are also building their layouts with sectional track and no soldered rail joiners - the type of layout building that would definitely benefit from keep alives. It's those cheap train sets that should include locos with keep alives, so the beginner doesn;t get frustrated by the junky sectional track losing power all the time and throws the whole train in the garbage in disgust and goes on to a different hobby before they discover the more advanced stuff like flex track and having more than one set of feeders for a room for of train layout.

 I have to wonder what people are doing to need keep alives in everything - small critter locos excluded. And no, I don't spend hours cleaning my track, or running trains pulling cars with wiper pads of some type or other. I haven't had problems with trains stalling, DC or DCC, since I moved past my sectional track days.

                                 --Randy

 

[riogrande5761]

rrinker

 I find it interesting they they are on high end models - well, no one will pay the extra cost in an economy model - but I really don;t think a lot of the people buying the high end models are also building their layouts with sectional track and no soldered rail joiners - the type of layout building that would definitely benefit from keep alives. It's those cheap train sets that should include locos with keep alives, so the beginner doesn;t get frustrated by the junky sectional track losing power all the time and throws the whole train in the garbage in disgust and goes on to a different hobby before they discover the more advanced stuff like flex track and having more than one set of feeders for a room for of train layout.

If low end engines came with them, albiet at a higher cost, they would still be cheaper than the high end engines with them, and people would probably still buy them.

Prices have risen steadily over the last 40 years and that hasn't stopped people from buying lower end trains, so I think the logic holds.  Then people would be happy to have those as standard equipment. 

Once processes and economy of scale has settled on installing caps in all engines, I would guess it would be a much lower cost per unit that DCC suppliers are currently charging for their aftermarket add-on units.

Remember when only high end cars had power windows or cars that you needed to add options to at extra cost?  Now virtually all cars have power windows standard, no extra cost.  Hopefully it will be like that eventually with model train engines.

I have to wonder what people are doing to need keep alives in everything - small critter locos excluded. And no, I don't spend hours cleaning my track, or running trains pulling cars with wiper pads of some type or other. I haven't had problems with trains stalling, DC or DCC, since I moved past my sectional track days.

                                 --Randy 

Or the question is, are people really installing keep alive in all their engines.  There is what people think they need vs. what they really need.

If you have over 100 engines, then the time and cost to convert all to keep alive is not trivial.  So obviously with limited time and funds, one would add keep alive to those engines that need it the most.

I am planning a layout right now and plan to install electrofrog turnouts with the frogs powered, so hopefully I won't really need keep alive in the vast majority of engines.

[trainnut1250]

rrinker

 I have to wonder what people are doing to need keep alives in everything - small critter locos excluded. And no, I don't spend hours cleaning my track, or running trains pulling cars with wiper pads of some type or other. I haven't had problems with trains stalling, DC or DCC, since I moved past my sectional track days.

                                 --Randy

.

Randy,

Try running some small wheel-base brass steam (with sound decoders) and you will see why steam modelers like keep-alives. The modern diesels that you are running are for the most part, electrically bullet -proof. The modern electrical pick up paths/designs are so much better than most small steam brass from back in the day.

I don't have keep-alives in my articulateds, but for the 2-6-0's, 4-4-0s and small consolidations, they have made a big difference in how smoothly things run. All of these locos have extra power pick-up added but they are still pretty finicky when it comes to power pick-up issues.

I totally agree with you in terms of clean track, fix the dead spots, scrape the glue off of things etc, and no, not everything needs a keep alive, but some of the old stuff just needs a little extra....

I occasionally think how much easier it would be just to put the brass away and run diesels...

Guy

 

[BNSF UP and others modeler]

rrinker

 I have to wonder what people are doing to need keep alives in everything - small critter locos excluded. And no, I don't spend hours cleaning my track, or running trains pulling cars with wiper pads of some type or other. I haven't had problems with trains stalling, DC or DCC, since I moved past my sectional track days.

                                 --Randy

 

 

Maybe because some people do not live in climates that may favour clean track and smooth operations all the time? Even if that is not the case for you, keep alives also eliminate the random momentary hiccoughs in opeartions that are impossible to predict and fix, but are embarrasing when visitors are viewing the layout and you want to give a good impression. I know that has happened to me before no matter what I do, and it certainly isn't fun. Keep alives dramatically reduce the chance of that happening.