What RR'd ran steam engines with Elesko Heaters?

[grayfox1119]

I saw them as a boy in the 40's on the New Haven RR, what other RR's ran them? Where they mostly on Northeastern railroads? What engines ran with these heaters?


***[?]

[cefinkjr]

NYC was a big user of Elesco feedwater heaters although they seemed to try to hide them on some classes by embedding them in the smoke box. I don't have any photos of J3s handy but if you find a good one or a good model of a J3, you'll see the upper 1/3 or so of the Elesco 'bundle' sticking out of the upper part of the smoke box. I'm sure they weren't trying to hide them; it's more likely that someone in the MoE Dept thought the heater would be more efficient that way. On other classes (H5 (?) Mikados), they were entirely outside of the smoke box.

ATSF also used Elesco feedwater heaters on some classes. I'm far from expert on ATSF power so I don't know the classes but I'm sure I've seen a picture of an ATSF engine with that huge pump hanging on the left side and the 'bundle' on the pilot deck (another unusual place for it).

Southern's PS4 Pacifics and Texas & Pacifics 2-10-4s are probably the first engines most people would think of when your question is asked.. Both had the 'bundles' high on the front of the smoke box; the most common place for it.

My own Northern Railroad (NRR -- the result of an end-to-end merger of the GN and the B&O) also uses Elesco feedwater heaters. We put them in the normal place, too. Definitely a case of "because I like it there".[:)]

The Elesco was sadly displaced by the Worthington which was supposed to be more efficient.

Chuck

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by grayfox1119

I saw them as a boy in the 40's on the New Haven RR, what other RR's ran them? Where they mostly on Northeastern railroads? What engines ran with these heaters?


***[?]

Just off the top of my head:

Erie K-5a 4-6-2's (there were other engines, but the K-5a's were PRETTY!!!!)

New York Central and subsidiaries (Pacifics, Mikados, Mohawks, Hudsons).

Southern Ry was a big user of Elesco's.

Santa Fe also was a big user, but generally mounted the heaters on the pilot deck (3400 class 4-6-2, 3700 class 4-8-2, 3160 & 4000 class 2-8-2, 3751 class 4-8-4 until rebuilt, 3800 class 2-10-2). There were some other engines that got them, but only sporadically..

Texas & Pacific (2-10-4's, 4-8-2's, 2-8-2's, 4-6-2's)

Nickel Plate used some primarily on it's H-6 2-8-2's..

Chesapeake & Ohio (K-3 Mikes, H-7 2-8-8-2 are the ones I remember).

D&RGW (L-131/132 2-8-8-2's, L-105 4-6-6-4's). There may be more, but those 2 classes stand out in my memory.

Canadian National and subsidiaries (GT, GTW) were big users.

Andre

[grayfox1119]

Thanks Chuck and Andre, I really liked the appearance of these tanks up on the front top of the engines, I can remember standing on a country road bridge, watching the train roar underneith me and nearly scare me to death as I covered with smoke from the hard pulling engine up the grade. That Elesco heater up top reminded me of the head of a bull!! I am looking to buy a few of these engines for my B&A layout (later bought by NYC), do you have any recommendations, BLI, B2k ? I will be using DCC.

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[Fergmiester]

CPR, Central Vermont (CN) and THB (NYC Subsidiary) Used Elesco's

[grayfox1119]

Thanks for the info Ferggie, as I am going to model part of the Central Vermont as part of my New England plan, this will help me with engine selection. BTW, did you feel the quake in Sidney?

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[trolleyboy]

The elesko company probably if still around likely has an award for the salesman who got in touch with CN as almost every type of road freight and passenger engine you could think of had these hanging off the top of the smokebox. Mikes Northerns Mountains some consolidations and some ten wheeler's were so equiped and therefore GT/CV susidearies had similar engines which were likewise equiped. If you want some good pictures look for any of Ian Wilson's books from Canadian Branchline Minatures they are an excellant info source. trolleyboy

[Paul3]

For anybody who wants to know what we're talking about, here's a couple of New Haven steamers with the Elesco feedwater heater (which improved steam efficency by pre-heating the cold water from the tender). The item in question looks not unlike a large Thermos bottle on the smokebox in front.

This is an Elesco on top of the smokebox of an R-1 Mountain:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nh/nh-s3302anh.jpg

And this is an Elesco in front of the smokebox of an R-3 Mountain:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nh/nh-s3555ahv.jpg

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[Fergmiester]

QUOTE: Originally posted by grayfox1119

Thanks for the info Ferggie, as I am going to model part of the Central Vermont as part of my New England plan, this will help me with engine selection. BTW, did you feel the quake in Sidney?

***

Quake? Sydney, NS? No[:0]

If you can get your hands on some books on the CV they had the 700 class, which were four Texas 2-10-4 Engines. Largest in the North East but the smallest of their class.

[Paul3]

Fergmiester wrote:

QUOTE: If you can get your hands on some books on the CV they had the 700 class, which were four Texas 2-10-4 Engines. Largest in the North East but the smallest of their class.

You know, I have to take issue with this (in a fun way). The B&M and MEC had 2-6-6-2's, and the New Haven's 2-10-2's had more tractive effort than the CV's 2-10-4's. And what about the B&A/NYC's big power? And didn't the D&H have 4-6-6-4's? So in what way is the CV's Texas-types the "largest in the North East"? Longer? Taller? Heavier? More power? Just curious, because I hear this often from CV fans... Thanks.

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[twhite]

Actually, a better question would be to ask which railroads DIDN'T! Missabe used them on a lot of their M-3 and M-4 Yellowstones (and even one of their M-2 2-8-8-2's) Western Pacific used them on most of their Mikados and many of their 2-6-6-2 and 2-8-8-2 articulateds. Espee used them on some of their (T&NO) Pacifics and Mountains, Santa Fe used them on almost EVERYTHING (but mosly deck-mounted) Rio Grande mounted them on the deck with their 1700 4-8-4 and 1500 2-10-2 steamers, top-mounted on some of their 3-cylinder 1600 4-8-2's. All of the Rio Grande 3600 2-8-8-2 and many of the 3700 4-6-6-4's had them 'eyebrow' mounted just above the front-hung cross-compound pumps on the boiler front. And the Grande used a later non-bundle Elesco on their 1800 4-8-4's. Burlington and C&S used them a lot on Hudsons and 2-10-2's. I think MOPAC used them on some of their 4-8-2's. C&O used them on their 2-8-8-2's and many of their 4-6-2 and 2-8-2 steamers. They were quite popular during the 'twenties and 'thirties, and in my opinion at least, were a lot more handsome than the Worthington BL's. Especially if used in the 'eyebrow' placement over the boiler front.
Tom

[grayfox1119]

Your going to die laughing at this one Fergie, when I first read your sign-off, I saw Sydney and thought you meant Australia!!! That is why I asked if you felt the quake two weeks ago and the one last week. Ohhh my, did I miss that one[:I][B)][*^_^*]
I will look for books on CV for sure, right at the moment I am trying to find some books on the old B&A and also the MEC Mountain Division.

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[grayfox1119]

Hi Paul, thanks for the great pictures of the New Haven's engines. These were the babies that I remember as a boy of 10!!! They ran on the line from New Haven to Worcester through the town of Oxford, mass where I spent summers at my grandmother's home. My uncle worked on the New Haven back then also. Where did you get those pictures ?

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[lonewoof]

August '67 TRAINS has a picture of an Abitibi Shay with an Elesco FWH...

[Fergmiester]

QUOTE: Originally posted by grayfox1119

Your going to die laughing at this one Fergie, when I first read your sign-off, I saw Sydney and thought you meant Australia!!! That is why I asked if you felt the quake two weeks ago and the one last week. Ohhh my, did I miss that one[:I][B)][*^_^*]
I will look for books on CV for sure, right at the moment I am trying to find some books on the old B&A and also the MEC Mountain Division.

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I kinda figured that! That's Ok sydney is a little known town that, believe it or not was a big steel producer and boasted one of the busiest RR's at one time, the Sydney & Louisburg. The Seel plant finally went under but before it did made rail for the world markets. If you look at the rails when walking the tracks, you may see the name Sysco. If you do you know the rest of the story.

As far as books go I have over 35 railroading books. A great source is Locomotive Quarterly. This is a pictoral, which comes out 4 times a year and features Steam Engines from around the continent.

Another source for Canadian and subsidiary Locomotives is O-SHO-ME plans. They are featured in Canadian Model Railroader. The plans can be bought.

C&O and I believe Northern Pacific had a few Mallets and Challengers with Elesco's.

The list goes on.

Personally I think all Steamers should have them!

Fergie

[Anonymous]

Hello ***
There's a CPR engine still running up here in Canada with an Elesco mounted on the front. It's Hudson 4-6-4 (2816). BLIs' new Hudsons have it on the front but like someone said it's so buried in the smokebox it's hardly noticable. You can add one if your so inclined, Cal Scale makes a nice version of it, with a piping set sold seperately.
Richard

[jrbernier]

Chuck, the Worthington feed water heater came in several variations. The side mounted 'BL' series is what you refer to. They also had a pilot deck mounted version, and a 'Type 4' that is the rectangular box buried in the top of the smoke box. That is not a squared off version of an Elesco system. Go to the following web site for some drawings of several types of FWH's:

www.bowser-trains.com/pdf/cary_parts.pdf

Jim Bernier

[grayfox1119]

Thanks guys, more excellent info!! Ferggie, I will check out the web site for that quarterly, sounds excellent,

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[WSOR 3801]

The NYC engines had thier Elesco heaters sunken into the smokebox for clearance reasons.

B&M 2-8-4s had external Coffin heaters, the big "eyebrow " looking jobs. CMStP&P 4-6-4s of F6 class had these, but tucked into the smokebox.

The Elesco and the Coffin were "closed" type FWH. The steam and the feedwater never actually touched, but were in close proximity to heat the the water. The claimed advantage was that oils and grime from the exhaust steam could not get into the boiler and cause foaming, etc.

The Worthington was an "open" style, were the steam came in direct contact with the water, which probably reduced complexity, chances of leakage, etc.

It was found that the open style did a good job of removing oil and grime, and then was installed more often after 1930.

There also was a Wilson Water Conditioner, installed on CMStP&P 4-6-4s in the F6a class, and 4-8-4s in the S-2 class. "This was a chamber in the left front of the tender tank. A bolted panel betrays its location. A large uninsulated exhaust steam pipe led from the back of the steam chest along the left side of the engine and through a large valve above the water pump under the cab. From here it reached the tender by a ball-joint connection and the steam was discharged directly into the cold water in the chamber. The heated water reached the engine in the usual manner, but the pump was designed to move it hot, forward to the check valve." (excerpted from Model Railroader Cyclopedia Vol.1 Steam Locomotives)

If you are interested in just how steam engines work, and the plumbing, fitting, etc. get the MR Cyclopedia. Similar info is in the Diesel version, for diesels.

[Anonymous]

If I were a betting man, I would wager that every major road that ran steam had at least one Elesco F.W.H. system on their loco rosters. The attending pumps located on the boiler front directly below the bundle presents a very heavy brow indeed. I have made these additions (Cal Scale castings) to three of my locos (HO) and can attest to the mass they add to their appearance. If you are a detail freak, you should have at least one Elesco fitted on a locomotive.

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by higssy

Hello ***
There's a CPR engine still running up here in Canada with an Elesco mounted on the front. It's Hudson 4-6-4 (2816). BLIs' new Hudsons have it on the front but like someone said it's so buried in the smokebox it's hardly noticable. You can add one if your so inclined, Cal Scale makes a nice version of it, with a piping set sold seperately.
Richard

Another operating CPR loco, 3716, a 2-8-0 Consolidation, is also fitted with an Elesco feedwater heater. 3716 hauled BC Railway excursion trains between North Vancouver and Squamish BC for a number of years as a substitute for the Royal Hudson. It was recently transferred to the Kettle Valley Railway at Summerland BC where it is being readied for tourist service. 3716, while not originally built with an Elesco, was retrofitted with the system by BC Rail in the mid '80's, resulting in a considerable improvement in fuel efficiency. Linn Wescott's Cyclopedia of Steam Locomotives by Kalmbach has some good photos and diagrams of the various types of feedwater heaters.

The Grizzly Northern operates a leased CPR 2-8-0 (Bachmann Spectrum) that was recently retroffited with a CalScale Elesco system. The Chief Mechanical Engineer is considering whether to similarily retrofit several 2-8-0's and 2-10-0's.

[Paul3]

grayfox1119 wrote:

QUOTE: Hi Paul, thanks for the great pictures of the New Haven's engines. These were the babies that I remember as a boy of 10!!! They ran on the line from New Haven to Worcester through the town of Oxford, mass where I spent summers at my grandmother's home. My uncle worked on the New Haven back then also. Where did you get those pictures ?

From the Fallem Flags website: www.rr-fallenflags.org

It's a pretty good website, tho' incomplete for a specific road. It does, however, have a little info on a lot of railroads, which makes it a great resource. To find more, just try a Google or Yahoo search. There are several good websites out there, including the New Haven Railroad Historical & Technical Association's website: www.nhrhta.org This is where I hang out often and talk NH to like minded folks (historians, authors, ex-employees, and ordinary railfans) on the New Haven Forum.

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[cefinkjr]

Geez!! Did I miss a bunch of roads using Elesco feedwater heaters. The worst part is that I belatedly remembered every road mentioned in addition to those that I listed. The old memory is just that -- old. [:I]

Ted: I think you're wrong about at least one major steam operator. I don't think I have ever seen a photo of a PRR engine wearing an Elesco feedwater heater.

WSOR: You're probably right that the 'bundles' were sunk into the J3 (and others') smokebox for clearance reasons. All of the larger NYC steam tested the limits of clearances. Anybody know exactly where those tight clearances were?

[grayfox1119]

Hi Isambard, yes I am interested in getting a copy of GNR. The wife and I were in Vancouver on our way to Alaska back in July ,2001. I wanted dearly to ride on the steam excursion, however we omly had a short time before boarding the ship up the inland passage to AK. One of my dream trips before the good Lord punches my time card, is to ride the excursion trains in the Canadian Northwest, gorgeous country scenes, and great steam action.

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[M636C]

Just a thought about the name "Elesco". These heaters were built by the "Locomotive Superheater Company" (the owner of the Schmidt patents), also known as the "L.S. Co.", hence the pronunciation "Elesco". In other countries, it was known as the "Marine and Locomotive Superheater Company" and the name was "M.L.S. Co." or "Melesco".

Peter

[Anonymous]

Let's not forget the greatest Steamer EVER built -- the UP Big Boys!!!