I have HO scale brass diesel locos. DC only. Should I sell them or get them upgraded to DCC? Sitting around for a long time.
If they run well, I'd upgrade them. Changing out the motor if needed and adding DCC is probably cheaper than converting to all newer diesels.
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Can't wait to see what Howard Zane has to say.
His layout is DCC so he has more converted brass than anyone else who is likely to respond in this thread. He also has locos in display cases. I never thought to ask if they were converted.
As a function of when I returned to the hobby, I have only seen a couple of articles on upgrading brass to DCC. I'm curious as to how easy they are to take apart and if room is at a premium, as it is on older plastic DC models.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I have only owned a few pieces of brass, steam or diesel in my nearly 50 years in this hobby.
But the day I saw my first Proto2000 diesel in 1989, I knew I would never own another brass diesel if plastic models of that detail level were available.
The detail on most older brass diesels is crude compared to modern plastic shell locos, not to mention many older brass diesel drives are just "average", not really better or smoother than current/last 20 years plastic models like Proto, Intermountain, Genesis, Boswer/Stewart, BLI, etc.
I don't use DCC or sound , so I don't have a dog in that part of this fight, but I would sell them, fast, to the highest bidder.........
Sheldon
I guess my first question would be: Are most of your brass diesels common locomotives? Or are they unique models? In other words: Can you duplicate what you have in plastic?
I only have three brass locomotives: one diesel and two steam. The main reason I purchased them was because they are unique models to my prototype and aren't (and probably never will) available in plastic. My 40-year old brass diesel (an Alco Models H20-44 switcher) I converted to DCC sound and it wasn't that difficult. It came with a can motor so isolating the motor brushes was pretty straightforward. And with a Loksound Select installed into it, it will do 0.3 sMPH on speed step 001.
If your brass locomotives don't run well or just okay then you need to figure out whether re-motoring or re-gearing makes economical sense - i.e. vs. locating a better version of them in plastic. Only you can make the call on that one. And, if you aren't going to do the DCC conversion yourself and pay someone else to do it for you, that'll add up real quick.
Tom
P.S. The detailing on my 35-40 year old brass is actually pretty good and I took that into consideration when I purchased them a couple of years ago. Each of them runs very well, too. If they run well and look good...I would convert them to DCC...but that's me.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I own a couple brass diesels, and I would never think of converting them... heck, I barely even consider running them.
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Compared to what you can buy off the shelf in plastic today, my brass diesels are poor runners and badly detailed. I will not even get into the tendencies these things have for intermittent short circuits.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
I have exactly one brass diesel - it was remotored with a Sagami can motor although whoever did it didn't put much care into the drive line, using Athearn components on the long hood end, which works fine, but skimped on the short hood end. I replaced it with some model airplane fuel line which is much better but not the idea solution - I'll be revisiting it. Since it had a can motor installed, it was easy to put a decoder in. It's a very nice looking model and I would buy more of them if I see them come up for sale anywhere - it's an Alco Models RS3, and I can never have too many RS3s.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Once upon a time I was in the same boat. I couldn't sell the five brass Alco Model diesels that I had. If they ran at all a deaf person could hear them. So I decided to repower them rather than make them ornaments on a shelf. I bought motors from Kato, Atlas, A-Line and NWSL. The drive line parts and trucks are from Kato and Atlas. They now run as good and quiet as anything. An Alco C-630 got a Bowser chassis. While I was at it I repowered 3 Hobbytown RS-3's with Atlas components. Nothing was a drop-in fit, but it was fun doing it and they run great.
Jim
BigDaddyCan't wait to see what Howard Zane has to say.
Henry, I have some brass diesels, but as you know I'm really a steam kind of guy.
Upgrade? For me it is about inherent quality, value for possible resale later on down the pike, and longevity. In all fairness, the recent crop of plastic diesels on the market today with factory finish,DCC, lights, sound, and excellent running qualities are hard to beat. If I was not a brass nut and 20 years younger, I'd probably play with these beasts. Then again, I'm always changing.... not only layout, but eras and roads modeled. I have found that no matter good and equiped a plastic model is, it is similar to buying a new car.....value drops immediately once it leaves the seller.
Early Alco diesels may be modified with new gearing and motors as most in original form make very fine door stops. Early Samhongsa diesels are an improvement from Alco/Kamata, but many have split gearing problems.....especially the ones imported by Oriental. For some reasons the Samhongsa diesels done for Key in the same time frame do not have the gearing problems...or at least I have not heard of any problems, and not experienced problems from the many locos that passed through my studio when I was an active brass seller.
Ajin and BooRim (OMI and Division Point) diesels are excellent in all areas and do hold their value quite well....many times bringing a profit to the seller, but no guarantee here as it depends wholly on what the model is and scarcity. I have never seen a plastic model do this, nor I have I known anyone even covering their cost when selling a plastic diesel. Personally I'd upgrade as I know if the upgrade is of professional quality, it could add value to model or at least the upgrade cost could be covered upon sale.
Howard Zane I have found that no matter good and equiped a plastic model is, it is similar to buying a new car.....value drops immediately once it leaves the seller.
But once again Howard, that only matters if you sell your trains...........
Some people don't get bored easily, don't require constant "new" stimuli, don't change era or roadname repeatedly.
In fifty years, I can count on one hand the locos I have purchased then resold.
So for me, the "value" is in my interest and use of them, not in what someone else will pay for them later.
And I doubt too many people are going to want a fleet of locos lettered "ATLANTIC CENTRAL".
I'm sure you and others are tired of my point of view on this, just as I tire of the idea that buying/reselling/speculating has anything to do with model railroading.
I've never bought a model train with any thought as to its future value, my only motivation is does it fill a space in the little world I am creating.
Worring, or even thinking about reselling it later would spoil the whole experiance for me.
ATLANTIC CENTRALIn fifty years, I can count on one hand the locos I have purchased then resold.
I think I am the exact opposite. I can count on one hand the locomotives I bought, and still had interest in running ten years on.
Hopefully the current collection I have accumulated will be of interest for my remaining few decades.
SeeYou190 ATLANTIC CENTRAL In fifty years, I can count on one hand the locos I have purchased then resold. . I think I am the exact opposite. I can count on one hand the locomotives I bought, and still had interest in running ten years on. . Hopefully the current collection I have accumulated will be of interest for my remaining few decades. . -Kevin .
ATLANTIC CENTRAL In fifty years, I can count on one hand the locos I have purchased then resold.
And yes, I get that not everyone is like me. From all your posts, and all our conversations, I know you like change, that's fine.
Seems like lots of people assume everyone is like that? Not so.
For me it would depend on the diesel. Something weird like an MRS-1 or a MK5000? Your never going to find that in plastic, so I'd keep the brass of course. A GP40-2? Dime a dozen in plastic, so not much reason to keep the brass unless it is a better puller thanks to the added weight of the metal shell.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI'm sure you and others are tired of my point of view on this, just as I tire of the idea that buying/reselling/speculating has anything to do with model railroading. I've never bought a model train with any thought as to its future value, my only motivation is does it fill a space in the little world I am creating. Worring, or even thinking about reselling it later would spoil the whole experiance for me.
I'm with you on this one, Sheldon. I purchase with the idea of modeling my prototype and could care less how much something will be worth 1, 5, 10, 20 years down the road. And I have no plans of changing either scale, or my prototype choice.
tstagecould care less how much something will be worth 1, 5, 10, 20 years down the road.
Me too, because nothing ever gets sold. There is not any market for modified models lettered for the STRATTON & GILLETTE. When I am through with something if it cannot be given away it gets thrown away.
I get my money's worth with the play value I refined from the model. When I am done with it, I am done.
Any value it could have had means nothing.
The problem with regearing is the metal sideframes causing a short when they touch the chassis. Replacing the trucks eliminates that.
70humdinger,It all depends on the brass importer. What brass diesel brands do you have? Alco, Oriental, PFM, NJ/Custom Brass, Overland, Precision Scale, Tenshodo... All have different expectations based on the importer and the era they were made in.
I have a number of brass diesels, one of this is the old Alco Models brass RS-1. I'm never putting a DCC decoder in it because I have much better Atlas RS-1's. The Alco Models RS-1 is noisy and only has 4-wheel pick up. Meh, I'll pass. My more modern Overlands all have DCC.
The difficulties in converting brass engines to DCC is mostly overblown. It's usually easier than an Athearn blue box.
Paul3The difficulties in converting brass engines to DCC is mostly overblown. It's usually easier than an Athearn blue box.
Good point, Paul.
As others have mentioned, a great deal depends on to what degree YOU want to see the particular locomotive running on your layout. Nearly all the brass on my roster are locomotives that will probably never be mass produced.
Case-in-point: I recently installed a pair of TCS decoders in a PRR DD1 (basically no different from a two-unit diesel). The open frame motors were like new and ran very well. Isolating them was a simple matter of slipping an insulator sleeve onto the brush spring and adding a flexible wire to the brush.
DD1-DCC by Edmund, on Flickr
Above is my "testing phase" where I have the decoders temporarily wired to see if the setup will function as expected.
DD1-DCC2 by Edmund, on Flickr
This is all I needed to do to make the motor "isolated".
PRR_DD1-fi2i by Edmund, on Flickr
And here is the end result. A nice looking and smooth running locomotive that will almost certainly not be available en-masse any time soon*. It is a 1970s era Alco Models product.
Good Luck, Ed
*Although BLI will be making the PRR P5a available in August and Rapido will soon be releasing the New Haven EP-5 "Jet", both fairly scarce locomotive examples.
tstage ATLANTIC CENTRAL I'm sure you and others are tired of my point of view on this, just as I tire of the idea that buying/reselling/speculating has anything to do with model railroading. I've never bought a model train with any thought as to its future value, my only motivation is does it fill a space in the little world I am creating. Worring, or even thinking about reselling it later would spoil the whole experiance for me. I'm with you on this one, Sheldon. I purchase with the idea of modeling my prototype and could care less how much something will be worth 1, 5, 10, 20 years down the road. And I have no plans of changing either scale, or my prototype choice. Tom
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I'm sure you and others are tired of my point of view on this, just as I tire of the idea that buying/reselling/speculating has anything to do with model railroading. I've never bought a model train with any thought as to its future value, my only motivation is does it fill a space in the little world I am creating. Worring, or even thinking about reselling it later would spoil the whole experiance for me.
Well, I have changed road, era, and scale at least twice (not all at the same time).
But I keep everything I bought - in 3 scales plus 3 rail O gauge. While I have settled on the Ma&Pa in S scale early 50's, I set up and run the other stuff from time to time. Plus for me, I enjoy the collecting, especially older models. Some of it is rare, but most is not. I buy what appeals to me in HO, S, and O.
Paul
That is true. A lot of times, all you have to do is isolate the motor from the body and chassis, and this is only the case if one brush is grounded. Seating the motor in silicon sealant in place of the original screws is usually enough, and that will have the added benefit of quieter operation. And if there's a chance of contact with the body, some masking tape or Kapton tape will do the job. Then all you have to do is wire the now isolated brush if it hasn't been wired already. Adding some simple electrical wipers to insulated wheels can also improve operation.
You do have to watch the amp draw on some of those brass motors. Stall current is typically 2 to 3A, with some even going as high as 4A. If a motor goes over 2A when stalled, I'd replace it with a newer one from someone like NWSL, Kato or Bachmann, and then you don't risk blowing the decoder if something stalls the engine.
Here's some of my experience with brass diesel brands:
KMT (Alco, Hallmark and others) - Hit and miss quality. My H-10-44 is an incredibly smooth and efficient runner, but my U25B's trucks self-destructed and the motor was an awful runner. My C630 is noisy, but smooth and dependable.
Tenshodo (PFM) - I have one of their old GP20s. The motor gave me fits, so I swapped it out for a new one. It has some gear whine, but it's a smooth runner and has enough power to outpull a fleet. From what I've seen, Tenshodo only got better with time (they are a jewelry company after all, so they had the cash to improve!). They're still around and making great stuff, but they no longer make any American trains.
Samhongsa - I'm working on a set of Hallmark E1A/B diesels right now. The mechanical quality is top notch with nearly hermetically sealed gearboxes and power from Canon motors. I would put their operating quality right up there with the best of today! The only problem is that they're geared too slow for passenger speed, so I'm going to change the motors out to faster ones.
I'm with Sheldon, I only buy stuff that fits my prototype, so I have no reason to be selling it off. I run trains, I'm not into collecting (fine if you are). Nothing sits on a shelf and looks pretty, it all gets used.
I have at least one exception to the "plastic never goes up in value". I sold an AHM/Pocher Lincoln Funeral Car for $80. Others were going for the same price, so it wasn't a one-off fluke on eBay. Mine still had the price sticker on the box - $1.99 in about 1973 from Two Guys department store. Following that, I started scouring the under table "boxes of junk" at the train shows, but most vendors realized the value of these and had them sitting on top priced at $40-$50.
That's the only sort of thing I've sold off - old train set quality stuff from my youth. I did save a couple of sentimental pieces which (in at least one case) are pretty near impossible to convert to DCC and so won't run. And some rolling stock - everyone in the family had their personal car, so I kept those. I could convert them to Kadees and run them at some point.
Paul3 70humdinger,It all depends on the brass importer. What brass diesel brands do you have? Alco, Oriental, PFM, NJ/Custom Brass, Overland, Precision Scale, Tenshodo... All have different expectations based on the importer and the era they were made in. I have a number of brass diesels, one of this is the old Alco Models brass RS-1. I'm never putting a DCC decoder in it because I have much better Atlas RS-1's. The Alco Models RS-1 is noisy and only has 4-wheel pick up. Meh, I'll pass. My more modern Overlands all have DCC. The difficulties in converting brass engines to DCC is mostly overblown. It's usually easier than an Athearn blue box.
I got most of them from Oriental Limited. Pretty much all of them were built by Samhongsa and ran very well. I did get a chance to use them on the Tehachapi layout at the La Mesa Model Railroad Club so I know they worked (the last time I used them).
gmpullman,Nice work on the DD-1. I just did a similar trick with a piece of heat shrink tubing over the brush spring on an old brass steamer.
Darth Santa Fe,Actually, you don't usually have to isolate the motor from the body/chassis, just the brushes. A fellow member of my club, a retired civil engineer, was told that he needed to isolate the motor from the frame on an HOn3 steamer. He created a custom motor mount that he scratch built out of styrene that was very well engineered (took him hours to design and build it)...but completely unnecessary. All he had to do was snip the brush wire.
I don't know if I've ever seen a 3amp HO motor, let alone a 4amp. Even those going over 1.5amps are pretty rare. In my almost 20 years as a DCC user, I can count on the fingers of one hand how many high-amp motors I've seen pop a decoder.
I agree with you on your brass manufacturer opinions. I've had roughly the same experience.
Randy,I admit that some of my models do nothing but sit in a display case and look pretty...because it's what they do best. Things like the old Stewart RS-3 that was custom painted and detailed many moons ago. Looks good, runs terrible. Same goes for a certain number of other pieces; enough to fill a display case. The good items I have are at my club in "revenue service".70humdinger,If they're ORI/SAM, and they run well, then I'd probably DCC 'em. It depends on what they are. If they are farely generic models, modern plastic versions will be better. But if they're hard to find in plastic (or never done), then I'd DCC 'em for certain. First, make sure they run well in DC. Test 'em before tearing one apart. New grease and oil, etc. Only if they run well would I bother with DCC.
Paul3I don't know if I've ever seen a 3amp HO motor, let alone a 4amp. Even those going over 1.5amps are pretty rare. In my almost 20 years as a DCC user, I can count on the fingers of one hand how many high-amp motors I've seen pop a decoder.
The highest amp motor I've come across was in an old Tenshodo diecast 0-6-0T. It didn't have nearly enough turns of wire on each pole, and the wire was about 32 gauge. As a result, the top speed was very high, the free running amp draw was about 0.35 (not bad, considering), and the stall current was about 3.5 amps. I ripped all that out, put in 34 gauge wire with a good number of turns on each pole (about $0.25 worth - cheap way to upgrade!), and it now runs about 2/3rds of the original speed and uses half as much power. It's a tedious process rewinding a motor, but I wanted to keep the original Tenshodo motor since it was a good runner overall.
Darth Santa Fe,Wow. My compliments on re-winding a motor. I built an electric motor once for a B-17 balsa wood model I had when I was a kid. After all that work, I had three more to do. I think at that point, I decided on a static model.
And being Oriental/Samhongsa, if the do clump along from split gears after all these years, NWSL is your friend and go to to replace those gears. I have done several for myself and friends over the years. Even bought a few super cheap because of this issue and fixed them for a healthy profit when resold as a running model. Older Alco Models brand can be a crap shoot. Some have plastic axle gears that split, again NWSL is your friend here, some ran really nice. Later imports from them were early Samhongsa production and the box will have that on it or "made in Korea" Any Alco Models box with "made in Japan" are Kumata built and will have the normal gear box noise. A can motor, extra weight and some insulating material on the inside of the brass shell(which makes an excellent amplifier for that gear noise) helps quiet them down. As does plenty of run in time on a loop of track. While the new stuff from Proto 2K and such is beautiful, the details and handrails break if you look at them wrong. Not so with brass if your handling it properly. Shorts between trucks and the frame/carbody. Turn out the lights and find it. Then tweak and tune so it goes away. This is part of brass ownership. Back when the modeler was expected to do some work to make the model run its best. It was a much different era. They were not made of brass for the collector or pretty factor, it was the easiest and best material of the time to get that level of detail. They were also the only models of that engine available back then, so your choice was limited. I have seen Alco Models with Kumata drives running smooth, with no more noise than a well broke in Athearn Blue box on club layouts. Most only had a can motor, usually a Sagami back then, but retained the stock gears and brass trucks. Wheel wipers can be added to gain all wheel pickup, A and B unit diesels like Sharks can be MU'd together to gain electricl pickup. Having a fine running brass engine in those days was a thing to be proud of as you as the modeler had put in the time at the work bench to get the model to that point. Today we are spoiled by nearly perfect running models right out of the box, be them plastic or the newest $1000 or more brass diesel or steam from OMI or DP. I will take all the Alco models I can find, I wont pay much for them, as a rule under $75, even for 6 axles. The ones online that are priced above that, have been listed on that auction site for over a year. Last fall I picked up a RS32 in its original box in mint condition for $30. It runs really well, will just creep, even with its original open frame KMT motor. They are a bargain and to me atleast, lots of fun and a challenge to make run well. Mike the Aspie
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
Here is my Alco Models DL721(RS32), was mint unrun when I bought it for $30 at the Noblesville NMRA show last November. I did a full tear down of the trucks, cleaned out the stiff goo that used to be grease, soaked the truck gear box castings in carb cleaner to remove the varnish that old oil and grease clean behind, used a can of Gumout to flush the metal axle years(do not do this if they are plastic), then reassembled the trucks with fresh grease and oiled all the bearings. The motor, a large double ended open frame KMT, got its communtator polished and bearings oiled. On this motor, both brushes are isolated, so DCC if so desired could be easily done. Even without much break in time, this engine will creep slow enough to count ties. And that is still with 4 wheel power pickup. Some good run in time, adding wheel wipers for all wheel pickup and a NWSL can motor will bring her up to date. She is much more durable in the detail department than anything from Proto, Atlas, Bowser ect. Grab irons and hand rails do not get broke from normal handling. At some point she will get painted, probably in either my homeroad or one of the eastern regionals that has an RS32. And I have never had any shorts out of this model running on curves down to 15" radius industrail sidings.
Mike the Aspie
emdmike Here is my Alco Models DL721(RS32), was mint unrun when I bought it for $30 at the Noblesville NMRA show last November. I did a full tear down of the trucks, cleaned out the stiff goo that used to be grease, soaked the truck gear box castings in carb cleaner to remove the varnish that old oil and grease clean behind, used a can of Gumout to flush the metal axle years(do not do this if they are plastic), then reassembled the trucks with fresh grease and oiled all the bearings. The motor, a large double ended open frame KMT, got its communtator polished and bearings oiled. On this motor, both brushes are isolated, so DCC if so desired could be easily done. Even without much break in time, this engine will creep slow enough to count ties. And that is still with 4 wheel power pickup. Some good run in time, adding wheel wipers for all wheel pickup and a NWSL can motor will bring her up to date. She is much more durable in the detail department than anything from Proto, Atlas, Bowser ect. Grab irons and hand rails do not get broke from normal handling. At some point she will get painted, probably in either my homeroad or one of the eastern regionals that has an RS32. And I have never had any shorts out of this model running on curves down to 15" radius industrail sidings. Mike the Aspie
$30? And I thought I got a deal on my Alco Models RS-3. Granted, it was painted and lettered, and had extra detail added like the marker lights the Reading had on the corners, and it was remotored already.
After I fix up the drive for good, I will probbaly have to strip and repaint it though, there are some chips and I have no idea what paint was used originally.
Hard to say what the older paint was, probably floquil as that seemed to be the prefered paint back in the day. The gentleman that I got the RS32 from had a table full of Overland cabooses, ranging in price from $100 up to $300 for some that were factory painted. The lone engine on the table was this one, with no price on it. I looked it over, felt each axle to see if the axle gears were split(wheel/axle will rotate with your thumb if the are broken). All was good so I asked what he wanted for it. When he said "Give me $30 for it", i was like "sold". I keep meaning to take an image off google images and use it to make a new end label for the box. Atleast someone got rid of the foam before it did any damage to the model. With Reboxx gone for now, I need to find some new foam for my box. Most original motors are fine and can be set up for DCC by just isolating the two motor brushes. But many have failing magnets which make the motor weak and draw high Amps. Micro-mark has small super magnets that you can stack in place of the original one, this will restore the low speed performance, lower the Amp draw and the motor will run cooler. Mike the Aspie