rrebell You misunderstand, I am talking about electrical arc from engines, sure there are other things, but most of it is from this arcing. Turn off the lights and run your trains and you will see what I mean. As a side note this info came from a person who makes his living as a chemist, he accually put it in a spectromiter etc.
You misunderstand, I am talking about electrical arc from engines, sure there are other things, but most of it is from this arcing. Turn off the lights and run your trains and you will see what I mean. As a side note this info came from a person who makes his living as a chemist, he accually put it in a spectromiter etc.
I have read this too. But a question:
Isn't the black stuff created by tiny little objects getting fried by the arc? The residue is burnt dust, no?
I'm just wondering. Lighting doesn't leave a residue until it hits something.
- Douglas
I can see arcing from engines or lighted cars happening, but you are not going to get arcing from regular fright car wheels because there is no eletrical path for an arc to follow.( no ground path and no load) You might get static build up and discharge on regular freight cars but not arcing from the current from the track.
your crud from arcing would be soot so to speak from dust, skin, oil, etc etc. Your lightning example is usually something it has vaproized.
What if cars are resistor equipped?
Steve
If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!
moelarrycurly4 I can see arcing from engines or lighted cars happening, but you are not going to get arcing from regular fright car wheels because there is no eletrical path for an arc to follow.( no ground path and no load) You might get static build up and discharge on regular freight cars but not arcing from the current from the track. your crud from arcing would be soot so to speak from dust, skin, oil, etc etc. Your lightning example is usually something it has vaproized.
Ok. My point is that electrical current is invisible. It becomes visible when its frying something. Something in the air as far as lightning, and something on the track like dust.
A cleaner track would produce less visible arc?
Maybe I'm thinking about this wrong.
In my opinion yes a cleaner track may create less crud, but maybe not less acring. Wheel shape and track level ( or out of level), joints, switches all can cause arcs, your air molecules will allow an arc so long as there is sufficent current to jump the gap. ( smell the ozone). Air is not in insulator.
Steven there is not much current draw on a resistor equiped truck ( nothing like a motor)
The brush with the "plastic" bristles in the dremel works well to remove crud without damaging wheels.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Doughless rrebell You misunderstand, I am talking about electrical arc from engines, sure there are other things, but most of it is from this arcing. Turn off the lights and run your trains and you will see what I mean. As a side note this info came from a person who makes his living as a chemist, he accually put it in a spectromiter etc. I have read this too. But a question: Isn't the black stuff created by tiny little objects getting fried by the arc? The residue is burnt dust, no? I'm just wondering. Lighting doesn't leave a residue until it hits something.
No most of it is residue from the arcing itself, you never arced thing when you were a kid? I used to use an old Lionel transformer to melt pot metal etc.
rrebell No most of it is residue from the arcing itself, you never arced thing when you were a kid? I used to use an old Lionel transformer to melt pot metal etc.
What causes the visible arc, the light that we see? Something's burning isn't it? Fine particles in the air?
A light bulb, the sun. Isn't all light created by a "burn" of some sort?
As I said before.....the older American Flyer/Lionel trains would arc on the steel track......also the older scintered wheels would also arc on brass track when really dirty........But! Where does the black come from when you have a brand new piece of NS track that has never been on any layout or subjected to voltage/current??????? Simple word...Oxidation. I rest My case.......
Take Care!
Frank
zstripe As I said before.....the older American Flyer/Lionel trains would arc on the steel track......also the older scintered wheels would also arc on brass track when really dirty........But! Where does the black come from when you have a brand new piece of NS track that has never been on any layout or subjected to voltage/current??????? Simple word...Oxidation. I rest My case....... Take Care! Frank
One, is arcing a fire hazard? I assume the sparks could ignite a fire under the right circumstances. Does arcing occur on HO scale NS rails?
Two, if oxidation occurs on brand new NS rails, never subjected to electrical voltage, what turns it into crud? Or, is it simply the oxidation that transfers to the wheels?
Rich
Alton Junction
Rich,
I had a lengthy post trying to explain a few things and when I tried to post it I lost My internet connection so I'm not going to repeat it. But no it is not a fire hazard with the voltages, mainly current that we use. Back in the 40's/50's era it was a possibility in the some circumstances. Back then electric motors drew more current then we use now. That coupled with steel track would create sparks on dirty track........basically Again, due to the oxidation of the wheels and track. My American Flyer when run fast, would emit a faint hint of o-zone smell, when not using the smoke function. My cousins Lionel would be worse in that smell....those older engine drew a lot of current and that is what makes the spark/arc. In steel rail you could see the arc spots on the rail........but the oxidation was still there adding to the arcing.
The crud is a combination of oxidation, dirt, dust, fumes from cooking, smoking and any other thing in the air that rests on the layout. wheels pick it up and constantly spread it around. Were are engines and rolling stock as heavy as the real equipment, it would turn that crud into powder, just by friction alone with the weight.
This thing about cleaning track has been going since since before My starting time in 1947 and I've heard everybody and their brother having a fix or explanation....But....Everybody and their brother, don't come from or live in the same environment.....
BTW: I'm an expert Arc welder......
Thanks, Frank. I am buying your theory of oxidation. I just hope that came from the course where you got the 89, not the 74.
I can recall, as a kid, turning off the lights in the basement and running my American Flyer in the dark. Loved those sparks. Quite a light show.
By the way, I love the smell of ozone in the morning.
richhotrain Two questions. One, is arcing a fire hazard? I assume the sparks could ignite a fire under the right circumstances. Does arcing occur on HO scale NS rails? Two, if oxidation occurs on brand new NS rails, never subjected to electrical voltage, what turns it into crud? Or, is it simply the oxidation that transfers to the wheels? Rich
Two questions.
Only a fire hazard if your train room was full of gasoline (or other flamable ) vapor at the correct fuel to air ratio. But if that were the case something else would have ignighted it before you started your train. the arcing is not going to set your scenery on fire, it is not sustained long enough to do any harm, or heating. you are not going to create a brush fire in your layout. the arcing prob has less current than some build ups of staic electricity when you shuffle across the carpet and touch the doorknob and get shocked. What you see is air molecules ( oxygen, nitrogen etc) "lighting up" this chemiclally changes these molecules, which is why you smell ozone. Electricity causes chemical reaction. if you run a current through water it will cause the oxygen and hydrogen to release back into gasses.
Sorry I haven’t responded back yet, been away a few days. Thanks for all your comments. What I come away with from all your comments is there’s nothing we can do, just limit it. I’m glad I asked the question, now at least I know I’m not the only one with this issue. And to answer Mark‘s question,I clean my track with a CMX car using ACT-6006 once or twice a year
Regardless of the voltage gradient that permits the arcing, arcing, by definition, is of a high enough temperature to cause combustion of organic compounds with sufficient voltatility. It being near 6000 deg F, it will even melt or weld steel.
What probably saves us from combusting ties and other materials due to combusting organic matter, sparse as it may be on the rails, is the ephemeral nature of the sparks because they last a small fraction of a second, and are tiny in cross-section. But be sure that, where the arc takes place, there is a place of plasma-like temperatures, very much hot enough to start exothermic oxidation processes.
http://www.solarabcs.org/about/publications/meeting_presentations_minutes/2011/02/pdfs/Hastings-Electrical_Arcing_and_Material_%20Ignition_Levels.pdf
Given enough amps you could weld your wheels to the track.( but your motor would fail first) Notice I said amps not voltage.
What selector says is true, which is why when something shorts out you get wires welded together or plastic melted.( or fires started) This is how Arc wleders work.
Ok, the simple explanation is that the arc is the electrical breakdown of a gas. As the current moves through the gas it produces plasma which can emit visable light. You are basicaly changing air into component parts and getting some light. As far as danger what most people don't know is it is extreamly hard to creat a real electrical fire at the volts and amps in household wiring. Most of those times you see the firefighters saying electrical fire, that is just a we don't know what happened (this come from the guys at the federal forencics labs, the guys who job it is to start electrical fires). Also when you see the arc you are getting micro pitting of the surfaces, just so you have something more to worry about, LOL.
My layout is about 10 years old and lately I have noticed a litlle crud on my rolling stock also, everything has metal wheels. We use a couple cars with the masonite under the cars, my son puts one before the engine and one behind it, after one lap we clean the masonite with a brass bristle brush and run them again. When it needs a little elbow grease we clean it with the Creotex bar that someone on here was talking about quite awhile ago and now I see Micromark is selling them. They polish the track as well as clean it so not much sticks to the rails. I have a double main twice around and a yard that is 45 feet long with 16 tracks to clean, all total 13 boxes of Atlas code 83 track so it does take awhile to clean my layout.
Creotex Bar? Please tell me more. Is it abrasive like a Bright Boy? What is it made of? Anything like the Woodland Scenics track clearer pads? Anyone else use these? Thnx Much
SouthPenn Bob, You can replace the pads on the CMX track cleaner. I do multiple times during a cleaning session. Sometimes I use a spray electronics cleaner ( plastic safe ) to clean the pad during refills. At times I pull Centerline roller cleaner behind the CMX.
Bob,
You can replace the pads on the CMX track cleaner. I do multiple times during a cleaning session. Sometimes I use a spray electronics cleaner ( plastic safe ) to clean the pad during refills. At times I pull Centerline roller cleaner behind the CMX.
I still have replacements that came with the CRX. I just need to use the car.
Will keep your advice in mind.
Thanks,
Bob
Don't Ever Give Up
Tophias Creotex Bar? Please tell me more. Is it abrasive like a Bright Boy? What is it made of? Anything like the Woodland Scenics track clearer pads? Anyone else use these? Thnx Much
Tophias Creotex Bar? Please tell me more. Is it abrasive like a Bright Boy? What is it made of? Anything like the Woodland Scenics track clearer pads? Anyone else use these? Thnx Much They are a rubber based bar with fine grit in them for polishing metals, they will polish the tiny scratches out of your track.https://www.ebay.com/itm/Walthers-SceneMaster-Cratex-Abrasive-Block-Extra-Fine-Toy/222648705265?epid=1812238927&hash=item33d6e5a0f1:g:X-QAAOSwHZ1Zv4VI This is what we use I cut it down into2 pieces makes it easier to use.
I'm not sure this is exactly the same link but at least it works
https://tinyurl.com/ycjt6vnv
There is also a company site, but no comparison of extra fine to sanding grits we would know.
I did find a comparison to grit XF is 240 +
https://www.cratex.com/Products/Rubber-Abrasives/Blocks-and-Sticks
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I found the Cratex at Amazon. Good price and free shipping.
Maybe am I the only one having those awkward ideas, but I use a dremer tool with a rotary stailess brush. I keep a thumb on the opposite axel wheel and slowly let it rotate until I have two rotations on each flanges and see them back to shiny chrome. I happen to weather all my trucks&wheels, and I first figured this out for removing paint excess. I just brush dry without any type of solvent, and roll the car or (spin) the loco over a towel for catching the loose grime.
I know some folks in my RR club are rolling their wheels into WD40, then rub over a piece of towel, but the idea of using something oily as a solvent never made much sense to me.
Stephane (Ironstef70)
My Youtube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC051f4F3z0iwDFa8FqRtgXQ/videos
My past projects:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/ironstef70/albums/with/72157651845821179
How do the abrasive qualities of a bright boy and a cratex bar compare? I’ve stopped using a bright boy (except in certain situations) because of its abrasiveness. Does a cratex bar “scratch” the rail?
Try this instead it goes up to a much MUCH higher fineness of grit. They're used for polishing guitar parts and go all the way up to 8000 grit which is the "highest" measurable grit as I've heard.
http://www.stewmac.com/Materials_and_Supplies/Sanding_and_Polishing/Sandpaper_and_Finishing_Papers/Fret_Erasers.html
Ironstef70know some folks in my RR club are rolling their wheels into WD40, then rub over a piece of towel, but the idea of using something oily as a solvent never made much sense to me.
A significant proportion of WD-40 is solvent and surfactants -- that's what gives it the penetrating and 'water-displacing' characteristics.
That does not change the "desirability" of leaving the water-displacing light oil film on the tread surface after cleaning. It would to a certain extent help prevent adhesion of further crud components to treads, and while I don't want to make any attempt at a formal parallel between use of WD-40 and prototype TOR, there may be some decrease in rolling resistance with the light lubricant film.
The advantage decreases of course if the lubed wheels are used for power pickup, or the lubed rails are in a high voltage-drop zone for some reason.