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Traction Tires

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Traction Tires
Posted by leewal on Friday, January 26, 2018 12:56 PM

I have acquired a Jouef steam locomotive and powered tender.  The tender runs very fine but the 4 traction tires on the geared wheels are loose.  Not sure how to determine size needed to replace and REALLY not confortable removing the geared axles to replace them.  Any suggestions?

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, January 26, 2018 1:47 PM

I don't know of any chemicals or other treatments that will reliably shrink these tires (there are plenty that will swell them, and perhaps one that does would induce greater shrinkage upon subsequent 'drying out', but I can't think of one).  

What I would try, since even replacement with NOS parts seems to be a nonfavored approach, would be to insert a shim or shims with the effect of increasing the effective wheel OD, consistently for all drivers, sufficient to give a little stretch to the tire, then add a little flexible glue if there is still slipping under power.  (Build up the tread of any non-tire-equipped "drivers" to match the as-stretched tire diameter if they are co-geared...)

If you do take the chassis apart, I would consider turning new larger rims and perhaps flanges, instead of making or adapting elastomer donuts 'to fit'.  Remember all the advice here over the years about machining with plastic wheel centers!  If you do try to source new traction tire stock, do not stint on getting good quality material with established resistance to aging (and which will not react adversely with plastic parts on the engine or on your layout...)

I suppose you could build up a replacement tender drive 'from scratch' with new wheels and axles, or adapt a more easily sourced chassis or parts.  Then modify the old side frames and tender body to this As needed.  This has a potential benefit in leaving the 'historic fabric' less affected...

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Posted by 7j43k on Friday, January 26, 2018 2:07 PM

If the tender runs "very fine", why do anything?

 

Ed

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Posted by mbinsewi on Friday, January 26, 2018 2:10 PM

This site handles a lot of Jouef steam locos, maybe you can track down a new set of tires.

https://www.reynaulds.com/index.aspx

Mike.

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Posted by leewal on Friday, January 26, 2018 3:51 PM
Thank you.  The tires on the wheels look almost new. They actually touch the wheel but they do not “hug” them. Pushing with your finger can easily rotate the tires on the wheel.  The person I bought this from was not the original owner and is not a train person.  Someone, probably the previous owner, oiled the tender and probably thought “more is better” because the tender & wheels were soaked in oil.  It’s cleaned up now and runs great but I bet the excess oil had something to do with the traction tires not fitting.  Short of replacing them I had two thoughts, 1) put a thin layer of Bull Frog Snot right over them or 2) put one or two small drops of CA under each tire to keep it from rotating.  The tender has the infamous pizza cutter wheels so I wasn’t worried about reducing the flange size too much.  I know a bunch of modelers around town but none are into European stuff and neither am I.  Any additional thoughts. I appreciate your input.

 

Walt

 

LIRRMAN

 

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Posted by leewal on Friday, January 26, 2018 4:03 PM

Maybe I wasn't clear.  The motor runs fine, the metal wheels spin the way they should and the traction tires are doing their job by gripping the RAIL.  Unfortunately the tires don't grip the WHEELS very well. Ergo, the engine stands still or just creeps along.

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Posted by mbinsewi on Friday, January 26, 2018 5:14 PM

OK, I get it.  Well, maybe the oil did stretch them out some.  Is there a little groove in the wheel that the tires fit into?

I'll thinking the snot might work, maybe try and get some under the tires, between the wheels and the tires, or maybe even your idea with the CA.

Not sure what I would do.  I guess I would try and locate some new tires, that aren't stretched out, and damaged from the oil, and in the mean time, try the "fixes".

Good luck!

Mike.

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Posted by dknelson on Friday, January 26, 2018 5:24 PM

I wonder -- how about BullFrog Snot to just replace the tires entirely rather than being used to [try to] adhere them to the actual wheels.  If the tires are now too large due to the oil or other factors they will not roll the way you want regardless of what holds them to the wheel.  

This discussion had some interesting ideas (I hope it is OK to post this link - not really a competing website I should think): 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/101366-jouef-class-40-tyres/

Note suggestions to try Hornby, Lima and other makes for similar size wheels.  One posting suggested Bullfrog Snot

And one guy posted this intriguing idea:

 heatshrink tubing cut into slices. Make sure you use the adhesive lined stuff though and that the wheels are free of contamination before 'shrinking'. 

 

Dave Nelson

 

 

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Posted by 7j43k on Friday, January 26, 2018 6:39 PM

leewal

Maybe I wasn't clear.  The motor runs fine, the metal wheels spin the way they should and the traction tires are doing their job by gripping the RAIL.  Unfortunately the tires don't grip the WHEELS very well. Ergo, the engine stands still or just creeps along.

 

 

Yeah, now I get it, too.

I'm a bit wary of putting various goo's under the traction tires because I think it would go on unevenly and make the wheels out of round.

I suspect the two choices for a successful outcome are either finding another tender in working order, or disassembling the trucks AFTER you find replacement traction tires.

And I'm hearing a hint that disassembly is unpleasant.  Or worse.

 

Ed

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, January 26, 2018 8:27 PM

What I am hearing is that someone greatly overlubricated this thing, and a large quantity of oil has wicked its way between the tires and wheels.

without disassembly what he ought to try is spraying a proper solvent repeatedly into the 'gap' and blotting up the dissolved and expelled oil until the gap is clean and dry when the last solvent injection evaporates.  This might involve adapting a fine needle to the end of one of those 'straws' that give directional application.  With care positioning the blotting, and attention to gloves and other PPE and to good ventilation, this can probably be done without ruining the actual necessary lubrication elsewhere in the tender and drive.

Then use some thinned elastic or rubber-loaded cement 'needled' into the gap followed by spinning the tires to spread the adhesive and adequate time UNLOADED for the adhesive to 'dry' or cure or set up.  It needs to be flexible, not lumpy epoxy or hard thin film CA even with gap filling additives.

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Posted by Little Timmy on Friday, January 26, 2018 9:45 PM

Overmod
Then use some thinned elastic or rubber-loaded cement 'needled' into the gap followed by spinning the tires to spread the adhesive and adequate time UNLOADED for the adhesive to 'dry' or cure or set up.  It needs to be flexible, not lumpy epoxy or hard thin film CA even with gap filling additives.

I used Walther's "GOO" many years ago on my one and only traction tired tender, and it worked fine. Just a very fine line of it ..... too much and you will spread that stuff EVERYWHERE !

Rust...... It's a good thing !

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Posted by leewal on Friday, January 26, 2018 10:48 PM

Thank you all.  I'm going to try SOMETHING before I try to dis-assemble the wheels and axles and replace the tires.  There are just too many gears on those axles for me to be comfortable with.  Also, I can't find any paper work to even help me safely remove the wheel/axle assembly.  Not even on HO Seeker. I bought the thinest CA available from Hobby Lobby. I'm thinking one drop on the wheel, let the CA flow behind an under the tire then rotate the tire by hand to evenly spread it out. Then run the tender as slow as possible and let the wheel turn sowly until the CA drys. And do this four times.  I've used Bull Frog Snot with some success but I'm not very good at it.  And GOO.  I always have GOO handy but it's a love hate relationship with that stuff.

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, January 26, 2018 11:06 PM

A general perusal of Jouef tender drives appears to indicate that you can work the tires out through the gap between wheel and side frame without mechanism disassembly -- at least on some models, apparently including some Hornby models made after they bought tooling from Jouef.  You might look carefully to verify this on your example.

i do not know if the tires stretch or deform when subjected to this treatment; all the references I could find assume you're replacing them with new, which really isn't the issue here.  But taking the tires off would greatly simplify cleaning and de-oiling.

Word is that the tires don't like to go back on without trying to flip off the part of the rim you can't reach as you try to work around the circumference.  Several people suggest using one or more jeweler's screwdrivers or the like angled in to hold the arc of tire in position while the 'rest' is worked on.

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Posted by zstripe on Sunday, January 28, 2018 4:08 PM

Leewal,

I don't know for sure how this would work on Your traction tires......but I had an RC 1/6 scale Nitro/Gas pick-up that I put a bead inside the Aluminum wheel and rubber tires and it prevented the wheels from spinning inside the tire and going no where. Probably the hardest part would be getting it on without making a mess. But You do have time before it sets up. They do have some cheaper......but I had found this to be the best:

https://www.rcplanet.com/chemicals-adhesives/tire-glue/traxxas-ultra-premium-tire-glue-tra6468?ref=isp_rel_prd&isp_ref_pos=4

I'm guessing the traction tires You have may be a synthetic rubber...it will also work on them.

Good Luck! Big Smile

Frank

 

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