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Graphite for Track Conductivity Improvement?

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Graphite for Track Conductivity Improvement?
Posted by Arto on Friday, January 26, 2018 8:14 AM

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/17181

Interesting article. However, since graphite is also used as a dry lubricant I have to wonder what it will do to traction, particularly on layouts with grades and grades on curves.

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Posted by mbinsewi on Friday, January 26, 2018 8:22 AM

If you read it through, you'll see where that problem is addressed.  If you experience a loss of traction, have put on too much graphite.

Mike.

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Posted by Arto on Friday, January 26, 2018 8:48 AM

I read thru it. I'll have to see it to believe it! Graphite is pretty slippery. And the layout mentioned is S gauge, not HO or N. And of course, this was forwarded to me to me by an O scale friend, flat lyout.

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Posted by Carolina Northern on Friday, January 26, 2018 8:58 AM

After years in N Scale, I was sceptical about this, but some modelers I respect kept saying how it helped.

My track has never seen a Brite Boy and has had metal polish treatment. Never clean with anything but alcohol.

I gave it try - I figured the worst that could happen is I clean it off with some alcohol.

I was pleasantly suprised that it made difference. Locos ran smoother and lighted cars no longer flickered.

I'm convinced. I bought a stick of 4h at Micheals and apllied it on about four inches of track about every 25 feet. It's been several months and have not had to redo or seen any reduction of traction.

Probably will need spot touch up after any scenery work that gets on the track and has to be cleaned off, but is worth the time and little bit of effort.

 

Don

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Posted by mbinsewi on Friday, January 26, 2018 9:05 AM

Some that have tried it, do run HO, one person figured out that the graphite helped to "fill in" the old sintered wheels on Athearn BB locos.

Anyway, I've never tried it, don't plan to.  I don't have any problems.  Joe also talks about using just a quick and light swipe with the graphite stick, on the inside corner of the rail head, in a few places around the layout, and let the wheels spread it around.  Using too much, can cause slippage.

Try it out and see if it works.  Like I said, I don't have any problems, so I'm not fixing something that's not broke.

Mike.

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, January 26, 2018 9:43 AM

The key point here is that graphite lube is either dry flake or suspended in some kind of carrier lubricant -- whereas the product being described here uses a clay or heavy wax binder, carried over with the smear of application.  Apply one of these sticks to any surface and feel the result with your fingertip -- it is not a reduction in 'friction' for most casual loading.  In those situations where even adhesion with something like Bullfrog Snot is dicey, like using that model with the depleted-uranium chassis to pull 540 cars, you might see tribological effect from the ''graphite' but i'd expect the sticky clay effects to predominate for normal loads and grades...

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Posted by 7j43k on Friday, January 26, 2018 10:07 AM

Graphite does do a pretty good job of conduction--for example, the brushes in our motors.

They were writing a lot about dealing with oxidation of the rails.  Isn't it asserted that the oxides of nickel silver are conductive?  As opposed to brass?  And, if those oxides ARE conductive, why are you adding graphite?

 

I have been hearing about the marvels of smearing "secret sauce" on rails about as long has I've been playing with (HO) trains.  This sounds like another one.

 

 

Ed

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, January 26, 2018 10:46 AM

7j43k
 Isn't it asserted that the oxides of nickel silver are conductive?  As opposed to brass?

This would be a new one on me.  Nickel and chrome oxides are insulators anywhere near room temperature; copper oxide is a weird semiconductor at best.  

What I think you mean is that the nickel-silver oxide film is comparatively thin, and self-healing, compared to the progressive scurf of oxides and sulfides and stuff that affects brass.  So there is less 'insulator' in the layer, at a reliable thinness, for conductivity.

Sometimes we forget that chromium is a hellishly reactive metal -- it forms oxide in a heartbeat in contact with oxygen, and this layer is what effectively 'passivates' items that are chrome-plated.  (Or that have chrome in the alloy).  Nothing more is needed to keep the underlying metal bright ... and some of its valence electrons reasonably mobile...

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Posted by floridaflyer on Friday, January 26, 2018 10:56 AM

Looking at the size of the layout in the article, I can see why they were looking for a 'better" way to address the track conductivity. That is one huge layout. Putting the graphite at random places and letting the trains spread it out has got to be a giant leap forward for them. As early indications show, it appears to be both easy and effective. Works for them.

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Posted by Graham Line on Friday, January 26, 2018 1:10 PM

Pure, or close to pure, graphite sticks are sold for adollar or two at art supply stores, or arts & crafts stores. Much less clay binder than the usual #2 pencil. It isn't a problem.

A few swipes every 10 feet is more than enough.

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Posted by 7j43k on Friday, January 26, 2018 2:18 PM

Overmod

 

 
7j43k
 Isn't it asserted that the oxides of nickel silver are conductive?  As opposed to brass?

 

This would be a new one on me.

 

It's been model railroading folk wisdom ever since nickel silver rail showed up in model railroading.  You might have missed the lecture.

 

Nickel and chrome oxides are insulators anywhere near room temperature; copper oxide is a weird semiconductor at best.  

What I think you mean is that the nickel-silver oxide film is comparatively thin, and self-healing, compared to the progressive scurf of oxides and sulfides and stuff that affects brass.  So there is less 'insulator' in the layer, at a reliable thinness, for conductivity.

Sometimes we forget that chromium is a hellishly reactive metal -- it forms oxide in a heartbeat in contact with oxygen, and this layer is what effectively 'passivates' items that are chrome-plated.  (Or that have chrome in the alloy).  Nothing more is needed to keep the underlying metal bright ... and some of its valence electrons reasonably mobile...

 

 

Then it sounds like nickel silver oxides would still be effectively conductors in this case.  And then one can ask why one needs to coat a conductive medium with another conductive medium.

 

Ed

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, January 27, 2018 11:47 AM

I will have more on why I think this works and is desirable when I get to a computer with a keyboard.  Too hard to fight the phone every sentence.

Consider what a photomicrograph of nickel-silver railhead looks like after a while, with the effect of small sparks from bad contact.  The conductive soft carbon fills in the 'asperities' and gives a compliant and laterally-conductive top-dressing film.  (Which perhaps not incidentally dissuades ambient dirt or other contaminants from sticking when the periodic Masonite track pad cruises through...)

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Posted by rrinker on Saturday, January 27, 2018 11:59 AM

Oxide of nickel silver is conductive, just mouch worse than nickel silver (which is worse than brass - but brass oxide IS an insulator).

I'm not sure how much the metal polich step of the 'gleam' thing actually helps. The key step it seems to be is the burnishing of the rails with a hardened tool. Against the relatively soft track, that should go a long way to closing up any micro pores in the surface, and in fact after I did that I never cleaned my track again. At worst it got dusty if I went a while without running trains, but since no liquids were used to coat the rails, it didn't stick.

 I can't see how pure graphite wouldn;t cause adhesion issues. Compounds like in a pencil might be ok because of the binders, but plain powered graphite is quite a good lubricant. The again - take a pencile, color in completely a good size place on a piece of paper, then run your finger across it - the penciled area is definitely more slippery. I get that graphite can fill in microabrasions in the surface and improve conductivity - but at what cost?

                                    --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by RR_Mel on Saturday, January 27, 2018 12:55 PM

I was having to run my CMX car on my NS track daily before I went to ACT 6006 cleaning fluid.  I switched over to ATC 6006 eight years ago and now I only run only run it once a month or so (not needed just a habit) and I live in the lower end of the San Joaquin Valley, one of the dirtiest places in the US from the dried Bay Area SMOG that drops 24/7 on everything.  The SMOG dust is non conductive and the acids when moist eat the paint of your car if not removed.
 
Since I’ve been using ACT 6006 I’ve never had a problem with conduction and never see arcing at the wheels.
 
As Colombo would say one more thing, I have 3½% grades . . . . no slipping either.
 
I’m not affiliated with Aero-Car Hobby Lubricants in any way, it's just a good product.
 
Mel
 
Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951
  
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by 7j43k on Saturday, January 27, 2018 2:16 PM

Overmod

Consider what a photomicrograph of nickel-silver railhead looks like after a while, with the effect of small sparks from bad contact.  The conductive soft carbon fills in the 'asperities' and gives a compliant and laterally-conductive top-dressing film.  (Which perhaps not incidentally dissuades ambient dirt or other contaminants from sticking when the periodic Masonite track pad cruises through...)

 

 

That's a great idea. Someone can do some photographs of the before (fresh track), the during (the arcing damage) and the after (what the track looks like after it's been graphited) and afterafter (when it's been used).

I know it can be done, because I did it to settle whether Bright Boys scratch the rail.

I've got other things to do, so I will pass the mantle to someone who's got more time/interest.

 

I will predict that no one will do it.

 

Ed

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, January 27, 2018 2:58 PM

7j43k
I know it can be done, because I did it to settle whether Bright Boys scratch the rail.

Oh! this is something I want to read in detail!  Did you do any comparative examination with, say, stainless or other wools, or  metallics of other hardness -- or any of the oxide-abrasive-loaded or hard-plastic scrubber pads?

A good comparison with pictures of railhead 'results' for different pressures and times would be as valuable as those photo repositories showing all the failure-damage modes in bearings and shells.  Were the results published or discussed here, or anywhere else that has a link?

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Posted by 7j43k on Saturday, January 27, 2018 4:19 PM

Overmod

 

 
7j43k
I know it can be done, because I did it to settle whether Bright Boys scratch the rail.

 

Oh! this is something I want to read in detail!  Did you do any comparative examination with, say, stainless or other wools, or  metallics of other hardness -- or any of the oxide-abrasive-loaded or hard-plastic scrubber pads?

A good comparison with pictures of railhead 'results' for different pressures and times would be as valuable as those photo repositories showing all the failure-damage modes in bearings and shells.  Were the results published or discussed here, or anywhere else that has a link?

 

 

I did it comparing Bright Boy and Pink Pearl and polished rail.

The results were presented on the Free-mo Yahoo group.  I think they've shown up elsewhere, but I don't recall where.

If you PM me your e-mail, I'll send you a copy.  It is a very simple photographic examination.  I only went far enough to determine that Bright Boy DOES SCRATCH RAILTOPS.  As that was the purpose of the exercise.

 

 

Ed

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