Prior to my founding the Great Scale Model Train Show (aka Timonium MD show) with Ken Young in 1982, I had purchased 15 acres of land in near by Montgomery County, MD for this purpose. The plan was to construct a 75,000 sq.ft. steel structure with an almost complete basement for multiple uses. This was going to be the home of the train show, and used for other events when trains show were not scheduled. One huge area of the basement was to be for a very large model railroad club. We were going to section off this area as a seperate entity with its own value (this was beyond my business and economic limits, but not my accountant's). Then we had proposed to sell shares for the club area which could be sold, traded, or whatever at current appraised value should member decide to drop out.
The club was to have a really great track plan to be designed by John Armstrong, then the dean of model railroad design (and most likely be one of the best ever).
Construction was to broken into various phases with a captain in charge of each phase....such as bench work, electronics, track laying, scenery, structures, equipment, and power...etc
Obviouolsy the captian would be the most proficient in his area, and all work by members would have to be approved by captain and group of peers. Standards were to be extremely high like everything such as structures and rolling stock would have to be hand built, with nothing allowed in plastic or the unspeakable (then)....RTR!
Of course operating dues would have been charged, but members would have had free access to all of the shows including dealer priviledges. A hobby shop was also discussed for the basement area as this was before the great on-line and eBay purchasing invasion.....train shops then were still a viable venture. Members would have been able to purchase at a great discount and of course wholesale contacts would have greatly aided in layout construction.
We dropped the plan due to problems in zoning, but mainly due to a tip that a major highway was to re-routed through our property taking most of our parking.
The rest is history. We began the show in the fall of 1982 in the Ellicott City Amory, then to Howard County Fairgrounds for two years .....and finally to Timonium where is is still going strong, but with new owners.I was able to re-sell the land without a loss.
Question?.............would a plan like this work today? The discussion has come up and I don't know the answer. I would guess not for many reasons, but I've been wrong before.
HZ
My comments are only addressing your idea for the club. It sounds as if one person (or a select few) would pick the track plan, be nominated as "Captains" of the various departments, and get most of the say. In my own personal experience, this will only alienate other potential members of the club. A select few will govern the rest and while the layout (if it is every built) will indeed be spectacular, in reality only those select few will ever show up for work sessions. Thus, the layout will never move forward.
Clubs work by allowing multiple ideas to be brought in and integrated with the group. That might not be the best method, and indeed poor workmanship can and frequently will result, but at least everyone is participating. I personally would not want to join a club where the decisions are being made by a select few.
Your other ideas sound interesting and bold.
Modeling the D&H in 1984: http://dandhcoloniemain.blogspot.com/
Howard, the club concept does not seem much different from that of "The Model Railroad Club" in NJ, started by Paul Mallory. That group has been slow to complete the rather ambitious original plan, but they are still there none the less.
That much said, I'm no longer the club joining/building type, so it would not interest to me.
The one flaw I see in your club plan is the "high standards" thing. Even back then it was a diverse hobby that attracts people of different skills and interests.
Example - I can, do, and have, built models at least close to being on a par with your work. BUT, I like plastic (styrene) as a modeling medium. I have nothing against plastic freight cars that are intended to represent steel. I do have steel cars that represent steel (I still run as lot of Athearn and Varney metal cars.....).
AND, more importantly, I'm not really interested in, or able to, put that much time into every model on the layout. Nor do I think it is necessary to build everything from scratch scenery/structure wise to have an effective high quality layout.
Paint alone does wonders to any number of commercial models on the market - then or now.
I'm a kit basher, freelancer, student of "minimum effort modeling" (the idea that you take the commercial product, and you do just what is necessary to make it an effective model of the desired prototype) and ex rivet counter who is more interested in having fun - building trains and running trains.
So how would I fare in your "high standards" group? I can tell you, but its not pretty......
As for the other aspects of your idea, the hobby shop could work if it was a well funded internet store as well. How much money do you have? I'm looking for a post retirement job.....
And the train show venue could work, that is all about location.....
Sheldon
I think it was in MR that I saw an ad for a retirement community with a model railroad. That seems like a smashing idea for me.
For those who want to downsize, you wouldn't have to deal with steps to the basement, building a new layout or a house that is bigger than you need.
For a brand new, free standing building and real estate, even if it was supported by a train show, would be an enormous cost in the urban areas of the US. Cheaper in small towns, but then you don't have the potential membership numbers.
Howard's Montgomery County is one of the most wealthy counties in the country. He should have bought the land and flipped it.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Hello all,
The nearest club layout is more than an hour-and-a-half away, and the nearest museum and train show are more than two-hours away.
If there were a complex, as you describe, I would gladly spend a few hours of travel to support your efforts.
Also, if planning a train themed vacation, an attraction like this would definitely be on the itinerary.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
Henry,
Montgomery county has slipped quite a bit. Howard County now is number 3 in the country. Unfortuantely it is where I live. If not for me, it would most likely be number 2. As soon as I found out about the plan to re-route Rt 29, I dumped the property ASAP. Had I held it longer, who knows, but I got out clean. I know about airplanes, model trains and brass locos, but in real estate I'm out of my league.
Sounds like a giant time-share to me. Practically every person I've known who's purchased one has stated they regretted the decision. I see it as a similar venture and it wouldn't interest me one bit.
As far as the layout, I would think a freemo-style layout would be much easier to setup, maintain, and dismantle, if needed. A "standard" for modules could then be more easily enforced and maintained - without it detrimentally affecting other parts of the layout. Any offending or inferior module would just be left out and sent back home with the owner until it could be brought up the acceptable "standard" - whatever that meant.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
#OT Howard Co? I am surprised. Last year there were a number of murders there, that never used to happen.
My wife has medical issues and I have not been able to find time to visit. Maybe soon.
"Standards were to be extremely high like everything such as structures and rolling stock would have to be hand built, with nothing allowed in plastic or the unspeakable (then)....RTR!"
With standards like this, you would limit your membership to about 1 person in a 25-mile radius. Maybe.
Howard Zanestructures and rolling stock would have to be hand built
Russell
SouthPenn "Standards were to be extremely high like everything such as structures and rolling stock would have to be hand built, with nothing allowed in plastic or the unspeakable (then)....RTR!" With standards like this, you would limit your membership to about 1 person in a 25-mile radius. Maybe.
I agree. I was reading it and thinking "ok this doesn't sound too out there. Not my cup of tea, but not too bad on paper." Then I got to that line. Seems rather limiting for no functional gain. The relatively flat sides of a boxcar look the same when painted, be it brass or plastic.
I can see that this thread is annoying to some so I'll be removing it. I did not intend it to be so.....just wanted ideas on a once viable idea. Note, before the junking of this plan, we had already had possible commitments from 9 modelers.
Can't seem to delete it, so possibly this topic will die a fast death. I'm sorry to have brought it up. I live in the past and although I understand the 21st Century, I prefer times of yore.
BigDaddy I think it was in MR that I saw an ad for a retirement community with a model railroad. That seems like a smashing idea for me.
I saw that ad in the magazine also. So I checked how big or estate in had. It was a very small layout, that could fit at least two people.
Amtrak America, 1971-Present.
Howard Zane Can't seem to delete it, so possibly this topic will die a fast death. I'm sorry to have brought it up. I live in the past and although I understand the 21st Century, I prefer times of yore. HZ
Howard, even though I am not personally intersted in joining a club, let alone buying stock in one, I think it was a good plan then, and could still be a good plan.
But your "standards" for the club are unrealistic - then or now.
You mentioned in the past that you finally had the chance to meet Logan Holtgrewe, correct?
As a teen I worked under Logan on the Severna Park Club layout. But even with the high standards of modeling at Severna Park, they had then, and I'm sure they have now, plastic freight cars........
Models should only be judged on the end result, not what they are made of.
I'm all for good modeling, and building models, but elitest ideas like no plastic freight cars? That is a total non starter even for me, let alone the younger/newer crowd.
Do my Varney metal cars fail because the "newer" ones from 1957 have plastic floors? - a good model is a good model, no matter the medium.......and a bad model is a bad model, and there was many a bad wooden kit back in the day......
Your thread is not annoying, it just started a conversation from model railroaders in 2018 on an idea from 1982. In 1982 there were three hobby shops within 15 miles of my home. They were well stocked and the employees were knowledgeable. They even had scratch building supplies.
Now there is one hobby shop about 15 miles away that's part of a tourist trap. They used to have a lot of kits and building supplies. Now they have 8-10 Accurail kits and a boatload of RTR. Your business model and club plans might have been fine in 1982, but they need to be updated to 2018 and RTR. Some RTR are really nice. I still build kits but it's getting harder with arthritis in my hands.
Hi Howard!
I have to say that your plan sounded very attractive, that is right up until you specified that everything had to be hand built. I have hand built plenty of models, some to higher standards, some not quite so high. My concern would be that I do not want to have every piece of my rolling stock examined with a magnifying glass before I am allowed to put it on a layout. That whole concept totally turns me off. My club allows any member to run what they want. If the stuff doesn't run properly then, after giving a reasonable amount of time to correct said problems, the stuff comes off the layout. We don't give a rodent's behind what it looks like. "Run what ya brung".
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Howard,Your plan sounds good on paper but,it would never work then or now..
First buy a share,then pay operating dues and still have no say in any matter because your "captain" or my "peers" has the final say..What do I get in exchanged for my money rendered? Sounds like very little and none of my 1982 BB locomotive and cars would be welcome so,why bother to join? Recall in '82 the main stay of the hobby was plastic Athearn and Atlas cars and locomotives.
No club has higher standards then the membership can bear.
In 2018 you would need to rethink your "no plastic or RTR" policy.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Since I cannot remove my posting, I guess I'll have to continue. Folks, the hobby has many genres and levels of proficiency sort of like the Prototype modelers and 1:48 scale people. They have their own meets and many offer workshops and clinics on how to improves skills. My club idea was not going to be an elitist venture, but only a club with the highest standards and we had plans to hold such clinics on workmanship. At the time my skills were not at the level I was proposing, and I had no problem in wanting to develop my modeling skills and this club would have had members who not only could have helped me, but as mentioned....others as well. Today, most if not all of these folks are no longer with us. I can only hope that this breed is not exstinct today.
What if you found someone with the knowledge, skills, and abilities to pull this off but not the money to pay the dues? I know two or three; one about my height.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
Howard ZaneToday, most if not all of these folks are no longer with us. I can only hope that this breed is not exstinct today.
Howard,I think they may become a endangered species at best but,who's to say since the RPM fellas does a lot of detail modeling and rework.
A club that should be mention is the Rensselaer Model Railroad Society since they have pretty high standards and the members models the 50-54 era on their impressive layout IRRC.
As far as modeling skills I'm comfortable with my skill level and see no real reason to improve-well not at my age and health level.
Howard, the breed is not exstinct, but even that breed has evolved.
I save my "highest skills" for the projects that really count. Being a bit of a lone wolf, I like the idea that good quality products can let me have a moderately large layout, with reasonably high standards, in a relavitely short number of construction hours.
I like busy Class I operations and modeling, my layout supports 8 to 10 operators OR good display operation.
My life is busy, I put in the time needed for signature projects, but a nicely weathered plastic box car in that 40 car train that just went by you at 40 smph is just fine.
It is about the overall effect, not each little piece.......
Seems to me, you views have some inconsistancies. You are a big fan of brass locos, last time I checked they are RTR. What makes them different than a piece of rolling stock from Kadee, Intermountain, Spring Mills Depot, or any other high end RTR rolling stock manufacturer? Or a plastic craftsman kit like the older Proto, or Tichy, or a long list of others?
Still very happy with my "cheap plastic trains" running right along with my wood and metal craftsmsn kit trains, pulled by my kit bashed Spectrum and Proto2000 locos.......
ATLANTIC CENTRALSeems to me, you views have some inconsistancies. You are a big fan of brass locos, last time I checked they are RTR. What makes them different than a piece of rolling stock from Kadee, Intermountain, Spring Mills Depot, or any other high end RTR rolling stock manufacturer? Or a plastic craftsman kit like the older Proto, or Tichy, or a long list of others?
Brass locos and rolling stock are very limited run handmade (mostly) works of art made from metal on an almost individual basis by extremely skilled craftspeople. A plastic loco or car although of excellent quality is a production piece from a mold produced in very large runs. Nothing here about denegrating plastic.....it is just different. We were going to allow brass locos, kit built locos such as Bowser, Leetown, etc, and possibly upgraded (extra details and weathering) some plastic locos, but they would have to be approved by committe. It seemed to me to maintain the highest level, some very high standards would have had to be enforced.
A layout such as was planned would have had very successful open houses and fees charged would have gone back into layout and we had also planned special charity fund raising events. A mid-level pike just would not have worked.
I would say it probably would not work. The Capitol Expo used to have 2 buildings, but sold the larger one to Walmart. This says to me that it wasn't that much of money maker. Then there's the D.C. convention center and Timonium for competition.
The club idea sounds like a problem. Essentially you're selling shares in the building. So you now have many owners of the building even with sectioning it (whatever that means). Then once someone buys a share for model railroading you are going to have big problems telling him he can't run his trains because they don't meet the standard. After all he's an owner (not just a member) who bought with the expectation of running his trains. And if you start forcing out folks who don't meet the standards, the value of the shares will decline as word gets around and no buys them.
But then I've never seen this kind of thing done before. So who knows, maybe it could work. Give it a try and keep us apprised of how it's going.
Paul
Howard ZaneBrass locos and rolling stock are very limited run handmade (mostly) works of art made from metal on an almost individual basis by extremely skilled craftspeople. A plastic loco or car although of excellent quality is a production piece from a mold produced in very large runs. Nothing here about denegrating plastic.....it is just different. We were going to allow brass locos, kit built locos such as Bowser, Leetown, etc, and possibly upgraded (extra details and weathering) some plastic locos, but they would have to be approved by committe. It seemed to me to maintain the highest level, some very high standards would have had to be enforced.
I think this alone will give it a VERY limited appeal and the cost per share will then be prohibitively high to make it all work - i.e. unless someone of means has a way of underwriing the entire project until enough "acceptable" modelers agree to become members.
Standards are important for any organiziation but think the above will be a deal killer for a majority of modelers. And what about those like Robert who have the talent but may not have the current means to invest in such an endeavor?
Have you come up with a figure of what each share would cost a potential member and what the monthly fees would be?
Howard Zane ATLANTIC CENTRAL Seems to me, you views have some inconsistancies. You are a big fan of brass locos, last time I checked they are RTR. What makes them different than a piece of rolling stock from Kadee, Intermountain, Spring Mills Depot, or any other high end RTR rolling stock manufacturer? Or a plastic craftsman kit like the older Proto, or Tichy, or a long list of others? Sheldon, Brass locos and rolling stock are very limited run handmade (mostly) works of art made from metal on an almost individual basis by extremely skilled craftspeople. A plastic loco or car although of excellent quality is a production piece from a mold produced in very large runs. Nothing here about denegrating plastic.....it is just different. We were going to allow brass locos, kit built locos such as Bowser, Leetown, etc, and possibly upgraded (extra details and weathering) some plastic locos, but they would have to be approved by committe. It seemed to me to maintain the highest level, some very high standards would have had to be enforced. A layout such as was planned would have had very successful open houses and fees charged would have gone back into layout and we had also planned special charity fund raising events. A mid-level pike just would not have worked.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Seems to me, you views have some inconsistancies. You are a big fan of brass locos, last time I checked they are RTR. What makes them different than a piece of rolling stock from Kadee, Intermountain, Spring Mills Depot, or any other high end RTR rolling stock manufacturer? Or a plastic craftsman kit like the older Proto, or Tichy, or a long list of others?
Sheldon,
Howard, I'm just saying you can HAVE high standards of appearance without specifying specific materials or sources. Appearance is what counts.
So it is ok to buy and run RTR if it is semi custom built by some other highly skilled craftsman, but not ok to buy the product some highly skilled group of people researched, engineered and mass produced at a more affordable cost?
More elitisum. The elitisum of both price and limited supply.........not a club I am interested in being part of.......
I refuse to "afford" $2,000 locomotives when I can add some detail to a $200 one and meet my high standards of appearance........
I'm afraid you are really out of touch with even many of the best craftsman in this hobby.......
IRONROOSTERBut then I've never seen this kind of thing done before. So who knows, maybe it could work. Give it a try and keep us apprised of how it's going. Paul
IRONROOSTER I would say it probably would not work. The Capitol Expo used to have 2 buildings, but sold the larger one to Walmart. This says to me that it wasn't that much of money maker. Then there's the D.C. convention center and Timonium for competition. The club idea sounds like a problem. Essentially you're selling shares in the building. So you now have many owners of the building even with sectioning it (whatever that means). Then once someone buys a share for model railroading you are going to have big problems telling him he can't run his trains because they don't meet the standard. After all he's an owner (not just a member) who bought with the expectation of running his trains. And if you start forcing out folks who don't meet the standards, the value of the shares will decline as word gets around and no buys them. But then I've never seen this kind of thing done before. So who knows, maybe it could work. Give it a try and keep us apprised of how it's going. Paul I have no plans on again trying to make this work. It may have worked for the time (1980), but the hobby is much different today. The discussion came up recently at a model rail bull session as some folks did remember this plan. Anyhow the Timonium train show evolved out of this idea and that is a good thing for many. For the record, I did belong to two clubs in NJ during the 60's and high standards were enforced and met successfully, but not as high as we had proposed for the aforementioned club. Today I'm just too much of a maverick to be involved in any kind of a club. Possibly ornery or cantankerous would be a better description. I do love sharing my pike today and visitors and comments are always welcome. HZ
I have no plans on again trying to make this work. It may have worked for the time (1980), but the hobby is much different today. The discussion came up recently at a model rail bull session as some folks did remember this plan. Anyhow the Timonium train show evolved out of this idea and that is a good thing for many.
For the record, I did belong to two clubs in NJ during the 60's and high standards were enforced and met successfully, but not as high as we had proposed for the aforementioned club. Today I'm just too much of a maverick to be involved in any kind of a club. Possibly ornery or cantankerous would be a better description. I do love sharing my pike today and visitors and comments are always welcome.
I can't see a reason why a club can't have high modelling standards?
Pendon works, and so do several clubs where I live.
They all set minimum requirements.
Like detailing grade, how buildings should be done so you get a complete whole, not a concoction of various models...
But then again, I like to build models, and so do several of my fellow model builders, and maybe the US has gone all RTR and instant pleasure if you have a big wallet?
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Graffen I can't see a reason why a club can't have high modelling standards? Pendon works, and so do several clubs where I live. They all set minimum requirements. Like detailing grade, how buildings should be done so you get a complete whole, not a concoction of various models... But then again, I like to build models, and so do several of my fellow model builders, and maybe the US has gone all RTR and instant pleasure if you have a big wallet?
High standards of detail and appearance are one thing, limiting methods to achieve those standards is quite another.
I'm a builder too, but I am also an operator, it's called "balance", being interested in all aspects of the hobby.......
Last time I checked, many craftsman kits, or the materials and detail parts required to scratch build, quickly add up to higher costs than many very good plastic kits or RTR models.
Not to mention the 10x factor of brass locomotives Howard is so fond of.
I belonged to a club with very high standards, especially regarding scenery, I get it, but Howards view is just unrealistic for a club today.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL High standards of detail and appearance are one thing, limiting methods to achieve those standards is quite another.
I suppose even materials and appearance could be poo-pahed by the committee.
Suppose I designed and built a next-gen Shinkansen, micro-machined from ultrapure titanium, aluminum, and Delrin. And suppose that, after hundreds of hours of work and thousands of dollars for tooling and materials, I presented such a contraption to the board for approval. I suspect they'd dismiss it out-of-hand because it offended their steampunk sensibilities (wrong century, wrong color, wrong texture, wrong materials, not hand-built (even though I'd put in a huge effort, my cnc milling machine would do most of the work), not weathered sufficiently, etc etc etc). Then afterwhich, I'd probably be brought up on charges of insubordination for making obscene hand gestures and booted from the club. No refund of fees.
Elitism.