Sheldon--
Wow. "To obsess over just a few perfect pieces of equipment"...Really?? Just a bit strong. Sure I want even my plastic diesels to fit together correctly, and that is really all I want, since things are now glued and not at all "adjustable" to fix once one buys. (See other topic about removing handrails). Even in plastic I reject some.
However you are completely missing the boat on how some of us play or played with ho brass toys. First if you don't like, don't buy. Once bought they are toys to be played with and used on the layout, which I most certainly did.
The stainless steel drivers of recent brass stuff never show wear. You can put easily 50 or a 100 hours on them and they will still look mint brand new. I know because I have done it on several. They just get broken in and run much better than out of the box. When I sold them I sold them as used and mint and got perfect feedback.
One can get a nice plastic EM-1, but there is nothing remotely close to a true B&O EL3 or EL5 2-8-8-0 or the UP 2-8-8-0 in plastic, and removing a trailing truck from a USRA version just will not cut it for those who know the prototype well. Arguably the most beautiful challenger 4-6-6-4 ever is the rarely ever seen or photographed Western Pacific version, and nothing in plastic is remotely close. I bet even the WP decals are hard to find now, too.
So for some even modifying a plastic USRA whatever would just never be acceptable because they are so far off, and why bother when you can get the right model if you really want it?? Wanting the right model is not necessarily obsessing over it at all.
ALL I want is decent build quality and I simply do without those models or toys that I dont feel measure up regardless of who made it.
Perhaps someday I will have the chance to own a WP challenger once again. In the meantime I will enjoy my affordable little ICG diesel fleet.
John
John,
I get the the whole idea of locos not made in plastic and choosing brass as the only way to get close/correct models for many prototypes - BUT - not every piece of excellent quality brass is this recent production/late model, high priced stuff you talk about all the time.
2-8-8-0, I would never suggest passing off my USRA 2-8-8-2 with the trailing truck removed as some "other prototype" 2-8-8-0. None of mine are lettered B&O?
BUT AGAIN, those locos are for my FREELANCED/PROTOLANCED ATLANTIC CENTRAL - note the lettering on the tender.....
I know, FREELANCING is now a dirty word, but since my self esteem is not invested in the opinion of the "hobby elite", I will soldier on with what is fun to me.
And since the B&O did remove trailing trucks from 2-8-8-2's, that gives my freelancing prototype credibility.
All these other protoypes you talk about, I know about many of them, some I don't know anything about, but in any case I'm not interested, at least not in buying. I only model three prototype roads, B&O, C&O and WESTERN MARYLAND. It is of NO IMPORTANCE to me what is available for the UP, WP, PRR, etc.
I don't collect model trains, I don't model those other railroads. And I don't speculate in model trains, I found Real Estate to be much more profitable......
But I am interested in creating an operational and visually plauseable model railroad of some size and complexity - 1,000 sq ft layout room, 600' of mainline, staging for 30 trains, CTC and signals, operations for a crew of 6-8 people, etc, etc.
And when I retire it may get bigger.........
My goals are different/more involved than just rail faning the flavor the week around a loop of track - although I like good display running too, and the layout is designed to provide that as well - four mainline display trains that can be swaped out for others in staging, while an operator works a yard or industries for fun.
I can't meet all these goals and spend $1200 on a locomotive, locomotives that would not really further the goals in any measurable way.
It takes most of the 140 powered units I own to protect the schedules for the 30 trains on the Piedmont division of the ATLANTIC CENTRAL. 140 locos times even $600 is likely equal to more than half of the money I have spent on model trains in my whole 50 years in the hobby. But then again I have never sold off my stuff and started over.....
The dollar cost average price of my fleet is about $120 - and they all run great and look great - even if I did have to upgrade, tune up, detail, assemble, or kit bash some or all to some degree or another. The most I have ever spent on a loco is $325 - or, if you count multi unit diesels as one loco, about $600 for a four unit lashup.
I'm really not interested in the "buy it and drive it" version of the hobby.
I search for NOS undecorated Proto2000 diesels with out DCC, I learned how to fix the minor short comings of EVERY brand of plastic steamer (they ALL have a few minor short comings), my roster is based on the layout theme only, so my needs are driven by the operational features I wish to simulate, not on a museum selection of famous locos.
It is mostly boring stuff like Mikados, 2-8-0's, 4-6-2's, Heavy Mountains.....and some bigger power. But all of it, be it ATLANTIC CENTRAL, or the three prototype interchange roads, is believable for my intended time and locale.
I have two USRA brass Pacifics, because until recently there were no plastic ones worth considering. But they have been kit bashed to the "family" standards of the ATLANTIC CENTRAL - guess there is no selling them off for emergency cash.......
But I don't have more than about $175 in either of them anyway......I spend that much taking the wife out eat in a week.
Then there is my "could have been" modeling. My fleet of heavy modern Mikados, built from Bachmann 2-8-4's.
FACT - the GN O-8 Mikes were heavier than the LIMA Berkshires
FACT - the GN and the B&O experimented with 70" driver Mikes
FACT - the DT&I 800 class Mikes were just baby Berkshires with 63" drivers
So LIMA could have built this (show here before it went to the paint shop):
I built 5 of these in three sub classes for the ATLANTIC CENTRAL - total investment about $800 with some extra Bachmann Vandy tenders for one sub class, the PSC trailing trucks, and a few other items.
I know, not your kind of "modeling". But they are well detailed, plausable, pull well, run well and look interesting.
The ATLANTIC CENTRAL has nine Spectrum USRA Heavy Mountains (and there two C&O versions on the property as well) I don't have $1200 in the whole fleet of Mountains - also great runners and lookers.
In my view, $1200 model train locos are for those who can spend $1200 like I spend $50 on a meal out with the wife - no matter how it may sound, that is not me.
Sheldon
I deliberately choose my words about brass very carefully to exclude those older or vintage models that may have serious issues like bad gears or known electical problems. You read what I say as though I am some kind of elitist; I am simply trying to distinguish between models that generally speaking perform well right out of the box (ie nearly idiot proof) from older ones that likely require considerable work and effort to get to run. My one friend often spent 40 hours fixing just one steamer, but then they were amazing when he was done.
I am not much personally for freelance modeling nor do I criticize those who are. All I said was removing a trailing truck to make a 2-8-8-0 would not satisfy some of us, and I think those who did in real life were actually in a small minority. I know most UP 2-8-8-0 engines always were that way, the vast majority of 80. I do not know B&O except those articulateds ran through dad's hometown. I have seen but cant find the video to buy it.
Also if I or anybody else chooses to like several widely differing roads or classes of motive power, so what?
We are two very different people from different eras with divergent philosophies. Time for both of us to agree to disagree?
As someone who worked in the retail side of the industry, I am always tolerant of how others enjoy the hobby - but that does not require me to be interested in how others enjoy the hobby.
There is brass in between the two extreems you described above.............lots of it.......
Say what you will, your comment about removing the trailing truck was a straw man shot at me, again because I never suggested it would be an acceptable way to model other 2-8-8-0's.
My "philosophy" of this hobby only applies to me, but you sure have spent a lot of time trying to sell or justify your philososphy of the hobby over the years.
I have 140 good running, good looking locos that only cost me $120 each on average because:
I have modeling/mechanical skills
I always knew what I wanted/never changed my mind and sold stuff off (at a loss or a profit)
I am a patient shopper with good knowledge of the industry
I am more than happy to agree to disagree, but you are constantly defending or justifing your position, and all your personal business you have shared on here.
You may not be an elitist, but it sure sounds like you "value" that view of the hobby - I was taught not to have champagne taste on a beer pocketbook - but in fact I don't care for either........
I know I am outside the current mainstream of this hobby, in a number of ways.
I am neither one extreme or another, my ideas on the hobby are a unique collection of different points of view.
If you ask about track radius, turnout size, or train length, or layout size - I sound like an elitist.........bigger is better.
If you ask about the acceptablity of "close enough" models, I am rather open minded and still very happy with the portion of my fleet that is Athearn Blue Box or its equal - even though I have a fair share of the latest high detail rolling stock and have kit built and scratch built contest level models.
BUT, passenger cars, even freelanced generic ones, must be close coupled with working, touching diaphragms........
If you ask about layout theme/design theory, I have no interest in simulating actual locations, even if I was not freelance or protolance modeling.
I love both prototype operation AND display running. That puts me at odds with everybody........point to point layouts are boring......and so are ones with no operational plan.
Elitist view - the best layout theory is to model one location and have the trains enter/exit that stage from thru staging - this allows only modeling each important element one time. One yard, passenger terminal, engine terminal, etc, etc, and allows for high levels of action.
Add in a little rolling scenery as the trains approach this one town/city/division point and you have the perfect model layout - in my view. Add in some hidden cutoffs for lots of display action and you have the best of both worlds........
When it comes to control and sound, I look like a Luddite at first with my lack of interest in DCC and sound - until you find out I use a DC control system way more complex than DCC to provide intergrated advanced cab control, turnout control and CTC........
And again, I'm not interested in, nor do I require, a "buy it and drive it" version of the hobby - at any price. If I did I would have switched to Lionel or Marklin decades ago.........
Agreed - we disagree
PS - do you know what the real difference between us is? I see the hobby, and the layout, as a "whole", from the "big picture" view. You see the trains, particularly the locos first, and all the rest is just fill in behind them. Maybe what you do should be called "locomotive modeling"?
PRR8259 I do not know B&O except those articulateds ran through dad's hometown. I have seen but cant find the video to buy it.
I do not know B&O except those articulateds ran through dad's hometown. I have seen but cant find the video to buy it.
But John, is it not you who is always commenting on the accuracy of this loco or that loco?
Fact is, an expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less.......
The B&O EL-1, EL-2, EL-3 and EL-5 were all built as 2-8-8-0 compounds.
Most EL-3 and EL-5 locos were rebuilt as simple expansion starting in 1927.
The Seaboard Air Line took delivery of 16 compound 2-8-8-2's from ALCO in 1918, and in 1920 sold all 16 to the B&O. These were not USRA locos, but were similar in size and features to the USRA 2-8-8-2, but with 63" drivers.
By 1922 the B&O had converted all 16 to simple expansion 2-8-8-0's, class EL-6.
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s7303ggC.jpg
This next photo shows how the original Seaboard locos had a trailing truck exactly like the USRA locos.......before the B&O removed them and changed the front cylinders.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/alcomike/6555262699/
But what do I know.......
railandsailThat is the DL109, a loco I was surprised to find modeled in plastic
.
When I started in N scale in the early 1980s, Con-Cor offered a DL-109, and I bought one because it was an easy to get and good running model.
Later, I found out how unusual it was.
My N scale fleet in High School included a DL-109, RSD-15, and some weird FM thing. Why were all the strange locmotives made in N scale plastic so early? There was not even a decent GP-9 offered back then!
-Kevin
Living the dream.
All right, John, Sheldon, go to your corners. If you two want to argue about locomotives, start a thread for that. That's not the topic of this thread.
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
RR_Mel I don’t “collect” but I have a sack full of SP Cab Forwards (16), all Rivarossi. The Cab Forward is my favorite locomotive followed closely by the AC-9. I enjoy restoring the clunkers sold on eBay to better than new condition. A real Clunker is bait for a kitbashed AC-9. Mel Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951 My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.