Mel could you give me a walk through of how I would go about making an AC-9?
Steve
If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!
NWP SWPMel could you give me a walk through of how I would go about making an AC-9?
.
Steven,
There is a thread near the bottom of page 1 called "kitbashed locomotives" where Mel posted a pretty good description of this project. It is complete with pictures.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
NWP SWP,Manufacturers only produce a few select steam engines that have already been done? Um, no, not really. Sure, there are a few dupes, but just look at the current websites on existing or future steam loco models:BLI Paragon3:Condsolidation 2-8-0ATSF 2-8-2C&O T-1 4-8-4MILW S-3 4-8-4N&W Class A 2-6-6-4N&W Class J 4-8-4N&W Y6b 2-8-8-2NYC Commodore Vanderbilt 4-6-4PRR I1sa 2-10-0PRR J1 2-10-4PRR K4s 4-6-2PRR L1s 2-8-2PRR M1a/M1b 4-8-2PRR Streamlined K4s 3-6-2Reading T-1 4-8-4SP Cab Forward AC4 and AC5 4-8-8-2UP Big Boy 4-8-8-4UP Early Challenger 4-6-6-4UP Late Challenger 4-6-6-4USRA Heavy Mikado 2-8-2USRA Light Mikado 2-8-2USRA Heavy Pacific 4-6-2USRA Light Pacific 4-6-2BLI Hybrid:C&O L-1GN S-2New Haven I-4New Haven I-5NYC 20th Century Ltd J3a Dreyfuss HudsonC&O J3a 4-8-4 GreenbrierNP 4-8-4 NorthernPRR S2 6-8-6 TurbineT&P 2-10-4UP 4-12-2Athearn Genesis:4-8-2 Mt-44-8-4 FEF4-6-6-4 Challenger4-8-8-4 Big BoyAthearn R-T-R:Old Time 2-6-0 MogulOld Time 2-8-0 ConsolidationOld Time 4-4-0Rapido Trains:CP 4-6-4 Royal HudsonCP D10e 4-6-0CNR H6 4-6-0CP H1a 4-6-4CNR N4 2-8-0CP G5 4-6-2CNR U1f 4-8-2CP G3 4-6-2CNR J 4-6-2CPR T1b 2-10-4CNR U4b 4-8-4CPR Jubilee 4-4-4InterMountain:SP AC-8 Cab Forward 4-8-8-2SP AC-10 Cab Forward 4-8-8-2SP AC-11 Cab Forward 4-8-8-2SP AC-12 Cab Forward 4-8-8-2MTH:DMIR M3 Yellowstone 2-8-8-4DMIR M4 Yellowstone 2-8-8-4UP Big Boy 4-8-8-4UP Challenger 4-6-6-4C&O Allegheny 2-6-6-6PRR H10 2-8-0SP GS-4 4-8-4SP GS-6 4-8-4ERIE Triplex 2-8-8-8-2
Bachmann Spectrum:70 Ton Three-Truck ClimaxB & O EM-1 2-8-8-4Baldwin Modern 4-4-0
Bachmann:0-6-0T Porter w/ Side Tanks2-6-2 PrairieNKP 2-8-4 Berkshire4-6-2 USRA Light PacificUP FEF 4-8-4 50-Ton Two-Truck ClimaxALCO 2-6-0American 4-4-0Baldwin 2-8-0 ConsolidationBaldwin 4-6-0Baldwin Modern 4-4-0GS-4 4-8-4N&W Class J 4-8-4USRA 0-6-0USRA Light Mikado 2-8-2Fox Valley:MILW Hiawatha 4-6-4Now that's everyone currently making HO North American steam locos to my knowledge (except for Mantua and Model Power because they are not exactly comparable in quality or matched to too many prototypes).There are 75 unique models in the list of 84 entries above. What are the dupes? UP Big Boy (BLI, Athearn, MTH)UP Challenger (BLI, Athearn, MTH)USRA Light Pacific (BLI, Bachmann)USRA Light Mikado (BLI, Bachmann)UP FEF (Athearn, Bachmann)SP GS-4 (MTH, Bachmann)N&W J (BLI, Bachmann)So are 7 duplications out of 75 unique models really a problem? It's less than 10% of the current offerings.
NWP SWP Limited Choices in HO Steam?...
Limited Choices in HO Steam?...
I have to disagree. Disregarding brass for now, there are models available representing most of the wheel arrangements commonly used in North America, from 0-4-0s up to Big Boys and Alleghenies. Some esoteric wheel arrangments may be missing from that list, but many of the more common wheel arrangements, from switchers up to 4-8-4s are available, either as in-production models or ones made in the past and still readily available at reasonable cost at train shows and estate auctions. That a particular 2-8-0 or USRA Mikado doesn't exactly match your favourite prototype doesn't mean that it can't be made into a better, or even exact, match for your favourite road's Consolidation or 2-8-2. Bowser (Cal-Scale) and Precision Scale have thousands of detail parts available, most originally made for the Japanese and Korean brass builders.How badly do you want it? Would it be of as much interest if it were mass produced and anyone could own it or own a hundred of them? If you are discerning enough to appreciate the nuances of one road's Consolidation versus that of another road, then surely it's possible to change the details on an available model to better reflect your favourite.And I don't buy the "I can't do that!", excuse, either...if you want it badly enough, you can do it or can find someone to do it for you. You could also re-adjust your viewpoint and turn to brass, where the exact model may be available or at least a model closer to the prototype and requiring less work to modify. If you wanted a dozen, but could only afford one, which would you choose...the exact model or a cheaper stand-in (or perhaps a dozen) which you created yourself, and which no one else likely has?There are hundreds of Bowser locomotive kits out there - I see them at train shows all the time, for pennies on the dollar. Sure, some of them don't match much of anything, but many are great (and affordable) starting points if you've got a little skill and are willing to learn some new ones.If you cling to the idea that somebody ought to make your favourite prototype, of which there were only two, you will likely continue to be disappointed. I think that it would be better to stop winge-ing about it and instead make an attempt to create your own version from something that's already available and a reasonable starting point. You may find more satisfaction in that than in picking a mass produced exact copy from a shelf in your LHS or off the internet.
Sometimes the squeaky wheel continues to squeak - no one will grease it, and it can't (or won't) grease itself.
Just my thoughts on the subject.
Wayne
Sheldon,The current selection of steam locos is fine. It could be better, but then it can always be better. There are hundreds of prototypes that haven't had models made of them, and that goes for steam, diesels, electrics, rolling stock, etc.There aren't as many duplicates as you seem to think. Sure, the Big Boys and Challengers, FEF's and Daylights have been made over and over again (because they keep selling; strange but true!), but there have been plenty of other models out there (see the list above).
Yes, I know BLI refuses to modify their USRA generic steam engines with road-specific prototypical details. That's because they want to keep the costs lower on these generic (but complete) locos (and they are $50 to $150 cheaper than other similar BLI engines). Because it's not just one or two parts. They are making 12 different road names in USRA Mikados alone; that's asking them to make 12 different variations vs. their normal 1 variation per run. That drives up costs because the biggest cost in the hobby is assembly labor.
Is it one-upsmanship, or just good business? Because Bachmann & Athearn also make several duplicates. Are they one-upping MTH or BLI? Or just chasing the dollars?
If you were in charge of a manufacturer, I bet you wouldn't make a livable profit for any of these companies and they'd be out of business before the next decade is out. Why? Because you'd make what you want: low-cost small-to-medium generic unlettered steam locos that have no details so that modelers can easily add their own. Oh, and you wouldn't do pre-orders or limited runs but instead make a constant stream of the same few models that are stickpiled, year after year. Right? Bowser used to do that. How's that working out for them these days? That sort of thing doesn't sell well enough anymore. Sure, it will sell, but it won't sell enough vs. today's methodology.
The hobby has changed. Your Atlantic Central is the rarity now; the freelane/protolance pike. At my club with 65 members, we have maybe 5 or 6 guys who have their own railroad (and most of them date back to those days when it was common), and I can't recall the last time any of them registered anything in their ficticious RR. The vast majority of of the near 1900 locos on our roster are prototype RR's. If there are a dozen freelance locos on our roster, I'd be surprised.
Hunting for that elusive model is a much more fun than, you know, not finding anything you want because it was never made to begin with. I used to drive to 8 train shows a year to hunt for NH models that were never made; now I can search the 'net whenever I want from my home.
The loco manufacturer probably makes more money on the collectors than the operators. After all, collectors always keep collecting; operators buy their fill and then stop buying.
John (PRR8259),Just an aside; I worked with BLI on the NH I-4 4-6-2 (a really nice large Pacific with lots of piping and character). They were disappointed with the sales of it. Meanwhile, the UP 4-12-2 (at the same price) flew off the shelves. What do people think BLI is going to make more of in the future?BMMECNYC,Ahem...the Athearn B&M P-4? The Proto B&M 0-8-0?
Thats quite a list Paul. The kitbashed loco thread was started by Stephen, and is now on page two. You can also see Mel's build on his blog.
Mike.
My You Tube
You'll notice in Paul3's list that "PRR" "SP" "UP" and "N&W" come up a lot. (BTW all four Athearn Genesis engines listed are UP engines.) Also, there may be a lot of different wheel arrangements, but sometimes only in an accurate model for one railroad.
Note too that some engines that are listed in sort of a generic way really aren't. The Bachmann 2-6-0 is offered in a variety of roadnames, but is a model of a Green Bay & Western engine, so is really only accurate for that railroad...although the engine is pretty close to engines owned by some other railroads. Except for USRA and copy engines, steam engines tended to be 'made to order' like tailor made suits, unlike diesels which were more like buying an automobile - the railroad picked the model and options they wanted.
BTW the BLI 2-10-4 is based on a C&O engine, and the Fox Valley Hiawatha engine is the 4-4-2, not the 4-6-4 (though it would be nice to see one available!)
I really love those art deco streamlined steam engines, but I almost never come across one of those.
Paul3The loco manufacturer probably makes more money on the collectors than the operators. After all, collectors always keep collecting; operators buy their fill and then stop buying.
Thank you John.
Enough can not be said for the silent collectors out there who buy not only steam locomotives, but also Classic Metal Works vehicles and Micro-Trains freight cars. Because of the demand they create, we as modelers benefit because there is increased demand and manufacturuers can make a profit creating what we desire.
Without them, who knows how sparse our options would be.
I, like Sheldon, am building a Private Roadname railroad set in the mid 1950s. I understand that I am quite a dying breed. Manufacturers just don't make undecorated models much anymore. I am thankful for the great models that Tangent and BLI have produced for me. I am lucky to find most of the old Red Caboose, Proto 2000, and Intermountain freight cars that I need at train shows.
The Life-Like undecorated Mather Boxcar still eludes me. I only want two! I cannot find one!
I could never make a profit running a Model Railroad company, for the reasons you stated. I would make what I want and not what would sell.
Great post.
Paul3Ahem...the Athearn B&M P-4? The Proto B&M 0-8-0?
Ive never seen the Athearn P4 in real life, but should have remembered the 0-8-0. Probably should add to the list the USRA 0-6-0, because MEC owned 2, and Proto did both numbers.
I agree that there is some variety but there is room for improvement as I would like to see some SP, WP, and NP steam.
NWP SWP Mel could you give me a walk through of how I would go about making an AC-9?
Paul3 Sheldon,The current selection of steam locos is fine. It could be better, but then it can always be better. There are hundreds of prototypes that haven't had models made of them, and that goes for steam, diesels, electrics, rolling stock, etc.There aren't as many duplicates as you seem to think. Sure, the Big Boys and Challengers, FEF's and Daylights have been made over and over again (because they keep selling; strange but true!), but there have been plenty of other models out there (see the list above). Yes, I know BLI refuses to modify their USRA generic steam engines with road-specific prototypical details. That's because they want to keep the costs lower on these generic (but complete) locos (and they are $50 to $150 cheaper than other similar BLI engines). Because it's not just one or two parts. They are making 12 different road names in USRA Mikados alone; that's asking them to make 12 different variations vs. their normal 1 variation per run. That drives up costs because the biggest cost in the hobby is assembly labor. Is it one-upsmanship, or just good business? Because Bachmann & Athearn also make several duplicates. Are they one-upping MTH or BLI? Or just chasing the dollars? If you were in charge of a manufacturer, I bet you wouldn't make a livable profit for any of these companies and they'd be out of business before the next decade is out. Why? Because you'd make what you want: low-cost small-to-medium generic unlettered steam locos that have no details so that modelers can easily add their own. Oh, and you wouldn't do pre-orders or limited runs but instead make a constant stream of the same few models that are stickpiled, year after year. Right? Bowser used to do that. How's that working out for them these days? That sort of thing doesn't sell well enough anymore. Sure, it will sell, but it won't sell enough vs. today's methodology. The hobby has changed. Your Atlantic Central is the rarity now; the freelane/protolance pike. At my club with 65 members, we have maybe 5 or 6 guys who have their own railroad (and most of them date back to those days when it was common), and I can't recall the last time any of them registered anything in their ficticious RR. The vast majority of of the near 1900 locos on our roster are prototype RR's. If there are a dozen freelance locos on our roster, I'd be surprised. Hunting for that elusive model is a much more fun than, you know, not finding anything you want because it was never made to begin with. I used to drive to 8 train shows a year to hunt for NH models that were never made; now I can search the 'net whenever I want from my home. The loco manufacturer probably makes more money on the collectors than the operators. After all, collectors always keep collecting; operators buy their fill and then stop buying. John (PRR8259),Just an aside; I worked with BLI on the NH I-4 4-6-2 (a really nice large Pacific with lots of piping and character). They were disappointed with the sales of it. Meanwhile, the UP 4-12-2 (at the same price) flew off the shelves. What do people think BLI is going to make more of in the future?BMMECNYC,Ahem...the Athearn B&M P-4? The Proto B&M 0-8-0?
OK, if you take into account recently made, current production and future "promises", the list is pretty good.
And if you add in stuff going back say 20 years, the begining of Spectrum, and its high water mark about 12-15 years ago, the list is real good.
My comments are not based on my situation as a modeler with 50 years experiance, but based on how I think I would feel if I was new to the hobby.
Model trains have always been produced in "batches", so maybe it is not really the "current selection" I take exception with, it is more the current marketing methods, which I don't really think serve the hobby in the long run.
On your list, how many of those Rapido locos have actually landed in North America..........until then, vapor ware......
I'm not asking BLI to make down to the last rivet correct versions of the Mike, Pacific or the generic 2-8-0, but Bachmann has no trouble with simple stuff like different trailing trucks, different headlight locations, and few different tenders - generally at better prices?
BLI "heavy" Pacific? That is about as generic as that MRC/Model Power/Mantua Pacific you elected not to count, considering the BLI model has the wrong size drivers.....
I once worked in this business, I understand it is not about what I want for my modeling, but this inablity or unwillingness of anyone in this industry to hold a little bit of inventory for "future customers" does not sit well with me.
I realize my freelancing is not as popular as it once was, BUT, I also model THREE prototype railroads - big enough, should be reasonably popular, railroads - B&O, C&O and WM.
Yet only the C&O has had much of a selection of steam in the last two decades?
OK, the Western Maryland, I get that and I'm not complaining.
But BLI promised for a decade to do a B&O P7 4-6-2, and we got a generic loco with a wrong headlight, wrong drivers and wrong trailing truck.......
Actually, collectors don't keep collecting. The bottom has largely dropped out of the 1990's O gauge collecting craze. Why do you think MTH got interested in HO? 7 years, that is how long most "collectors" of anything are real active purchasers. and many collectors are driven by the direction of thier stock portfolio, modelers generally keep modeling and buying through thick and thin for decades.
Sure, collectors help drive the market and selection, and yes the hobby has changed a lot, but here is my big question:
How much business, how many discouraged new people, is lost do to the lack of continuity in available product, and lack of product "in stock" to buy right now?
I think it might be a lot......I could be wrong.
Paul, your list, nice as it is, seems a little "skewed" to me, but clearly you have more spare time than me......
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRALModelers generally keep modeling and buying through thick and thin for decades.
I do not agree with this at all. Sure, they might buy small things for decades, but surely not the big baskets full of all the items a newcomer needs. New people to this hobby (and any hobby) are the life blood of all manufacturers and shops. Collectors are the icing on the cake. Us old people are the slow and steady tortoise that keeps the cash flowing.
Us old curmudgeons like to think we spend as lot more than we really do.
New people building new layouts are where the big sales are that keep the doors open.
You need all three (collector, newbie, old wheel) to keep a good profit alive. It would be a foolish shopkeeper that did not keep stuff in stock for the old timers. However, when there is fresh meat in the store, that is where his attention should go.
The lack of a wide variety of new product will not disourage newcomers. There is plenty for them to buy and learn. It will be later before they become frustrated, and then the shopkeeper should have made his money and have another steady customer.
I am currently riding a big wave of extra spending as I get ready for my next layout. This surge will die down in the next twelve months or so when I have everything I need to replace what I purged. So I guess i am a combo "newbie-old wheel" right now, and Gulf Coast Model Railroading & Colonial Photo & Hobby have benefited from this.
I emailed Intermountain about making an AC-9 and an SP-2 they said they'll forward it to their R&D team.
And I'm about to email Athearn and Broadway Limited.
NWP SWPSP,
20 brass steam locomotives in SP in your price range, 32 total.
NWP SWPWP
None
NWP SWPNP
1 in your price range, 12 total.
Some of them are probably not the best runners. Others can speak to the quality of particular models and production runs.
Brasstrains.com
Brass is a slipperly slope.
YMMV
One of the SP locos is a SP-2 4-10-2.
Sheldon,Actually, the beginning of Spectrum was in 1989-1990, so it's closer to 30 years. Hard to believe, isn't it? But the first Spectrum steamer, the PRR K4 4-6-2, was sometime around 1992-93 (because I remember first seeing one at a hobby shop that closed right around then), so more like 25 years for Spectrum steam.
Yeah, none of the Rapido engines are out; the Royal Hudson is coming next year, and there will be one per year or so for the next dozen years if they are lucky. I've seen the 3D images and Rapido has a pretty good track record of not canceling too many items, but who knows? Still, they announced them.
Bachmann is the Chinese factory that makes them. BLI contracts out to a Chinese company. It's why Bachmann still offers the old full discount while BLI (and many others) are short-discount. They can swallow some tooling costs and they can afford to stockpile some parts in China. Bachmann also tooled up variations from the get-go while BLI did not. It was short-sighted of BLI, sure, but it's too late now to change it without significant price increases to pay for all new tooling.
When BLI or other companies contract out to a Chinese firm to make a model, they pay for a run of, say, 3000 units. The Chinese firm will make 3000+ units, with the + being items used to cover expected manufacturing defects. After all 3000 items are made and all defects are cleared up, the remainder of the + are either shipped to the USA at extra cost to the US manufacturer (doubtful), or they are re-grinded and put back into the plastic bins (more common). There is no BLI parts warehouse where a run of 3000 USRA engines in 12 road names can have different tenders, headlights, or trailing trucks added simply by going to the stock room and pulling the parts down. If BLI wants a different tender or trailing truck, they have to pay the Chinese to dig out the old tooling (if present) and pay for more injected plastic machine time. It can be done, sure, but the Chinese will charge more, which means that the MSRP will go up.
Yep, I didn't count Mantua, Model Power, or IHC (or Rivarossi or Penn Line or Bowser, etc.). They're all ancient tooling.
Hold a little bit of inventory...are you kidding? Do you realize just how much product is out today; I mean really counted it up? There are so many different products out there now that no hobby shop could possibly afford to stockpile even a 1/10th of what comes out annually. Seriously, take a look at my LHS, AA Hobbies in Warwick, RI: https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1073610229409366&id=148146821955716
He's got tons of inventory (there's even more in the store's basement), but he doesn't have everything. He couldn't possibly physically put it in the shop, let alone afford it. But too bad he doesn't have anything to stock his shelves, right? I mean look at his shelves...they're loaded. Any newbie that goes into his shop and can't find anything to buy isn't looking too hard. In yon olden days of the 1980's, you bought what was in stock at the LHS (or you mail-ordered with no choice of roadnames) or you got nothing. That didn't seem to bother newbies at the time. Why would it bother newbies today?
Why did MTH get into HO? Probably because HO is over 50% of the market and O-scale is in a distant 3rd place behind N-scale.
I have no idea where you pulled the 7 years for collectors thing. The collectors I know are still buying. Meanwhile, you said yourself that you're not buying much these days because you got all the stuff you wanted already.
Paul3 Seriously, take a look at my LHS, AA Hobbies in Warwick, RI
We have probably met, also my LHS. That store was probably the single largest contributer to me getting into HO.
Paul3I have no idea where you pulled the 7 years for collectors thing. The collectors I know are still buying.
I have to agree with Paul on this one. My other (AA doesnt do 3 rail) LHS has a steady stream of business from collectors. He has regulars as far as Louisville, Ky.
MTH has this neat product locator service where you can find any run of locomotive they have done, and who has it in stock still. Thats how I found most of my O 3rail stuff my senior year in high school.
Paul,
Yes, I already know all of that, and then some.
I started working in a hobby shop at age 14, in 1971. By age 16 I was doing most of the repairs there. At 17 I was working in a different shop, by age 20 I was managing that train department.
Today I still know lots of people in this business, I knew Lee Riley of Bachmann, etc.
The real heyday of Spectrum steam was from about 1997 to 2007, largest selection, big quality improvements, etc. Lee did a great job with products that appealed to a wide range of different interests in the hobby, modeler, collector, casual or serious.
While LifeLike never got deep into steam, the original growth of the Proto2000 line was the same way. Both product lines had their origins right here in Baltimore, I knew lots of the players at verious points.
Yes, Bachmann has an advantage, their parent company actually owns factories......and is one of a very few publicly traded model train manufacturers in the world.
This is the Baltimore area, home of LifeLike, home of M B Klein (modeltrainstuff), home of the B&O, home of the BSME (oldest model train club), home of the Great Scale Model Train Show (only thing that comes close to Amhurst), home to Howard Zane's famous layout, nearby is Philly, original US home of Bachamnn and once home to AHM, Atlas right up the road in NJ, etc.
The Mid Atlantic is one of the activity hubs of this business and this hobby, then and now.
I grew up here, in this hobby, I don't have time to share all I know about it.
I understand why and how we got where we are, I was a part of it, that does not mean I have to agree it is the best course for the future of the industry or the hobby.
We could see in the early 80's when Atlas started importing diesels, and Bachmann started getting better, where this was going. We knew then shops would need to be bigger, they would need to discount and they would need mailorder to be profitable. We tried to put together some investers for a hobby super store, we just could not find the right takers.
As for my purchasing habits, yes, I have most of the locos and rolling stock I want - that took the better part of 50 years and it is a sizeable fleet.
But I am still buying model train products at a pretty good anual pace. And now I am getting back to my new layout project, so spending will increase, even if it is not locos and cars so much any more.
What would I buy if it was out there:
A good modern 10 wheeler like a B&O B18 - in diecast/plastic at say $250 on the street, I would be in for 3-4
A Western Maryland Pacific - I know that's a real long shot. When I get serious about that one I will just buy a brass one.
Since I almost always buy locomotives in pairs or greater, I really am a friend to any manufacturer who makes what I need.
Obviously the 7 year stat on collectors is "typical", not absolute. But I watched as a local shop here, big in O and large scale, went from boom to struggling as that whole market cooled off after about 2006/7 or so, along with housing and stocks..... I know several other shops in the region also said that part of the market cooled a lot at that time and has never fully recovered.
I'm really not up for any more of this conversation, so you win, whatever.
I have what I want, without a bunch of electronics that sound like a 9 transistor radio, and I can kit bash any model I really want.
But I doubt I would get into this hobby if I was starting now.
I see that there is a lot of opinions on this subject some of you agree with me some don't that's just the way it is I still am going to stand firm on my opinion and I'm sure you all will too! Hopefully the manufacturers will start selling more variety of roadname/wheel configurations but if they don't there's always brass. Thanks for responding and please continue to.
BMMECNYC,Could be. I only get down there about once a month if that. It's a 30 min. drive for me without traffic, and I have to drive around or through Providence (not fun). Usually, I hit Gregg's for lunch (because the desserts...yum) but if I don't get out of AA by 3:30PM, it's a traffic nightmare all the way to Massachusetts (60 min. or worse).Sheldon,The only solution to your concerns (if I read you correctly) is to retrench the hobby back to the 1970's-80's era. You want to be able to walk into any LHS and buy whatever that has been recently produced even if it's months or years after it came out. You also want generic locos and a trove of available detail parts so that the modeler could customize the models themselves. For that to happen, choices must be limited to only a few items (and a wall of detail parts) or no LHS could afford it.
Personally, I prefer the here and now. I don't model generic railroads; I model a specific RR. In the 1970's-80's, there was exactly zilch in accurate NH models in plastic; people modeled home roads because what they really wanted wasn't available. Just look at Tony Koester; he did the AM because he couldn't do NKP. Modeling the NKP or NH (and many other RR's) is so easy today, it's unreal when compared to 30 years ago.
But if we went back to the 1970's-80's formula, there would be few if any new products; maybe 5 new engines in a decade. And there'd only be a half dozen paint schemes...ever...per new engine.
Just look at this 1975 ad for Atlas diesels:http://hoseeker.net/Atlasinformation/atlassaleslist1975pg1.jpg
Pretty limited selection there. Of course, you could walk into any LHS in the land and buy any of them. But if you didn't model those roads, what did you do? How was that not frustrating for newbies?
You'll never get your B&O H10 or WM Pacific in plastic without today's marketing.
Paul3 BMMECNYC,Could be. I only get down there about once a month if that. It's a 30 min. drive for me without traffic, and I have to drive around or through Providence (not fun). Usually, I hit Gregg's for lunch (because the desserts...yum) but if I don't get out of AA by 3:30PM, it's a traffic nightmare all the way to Massachusetts (60 min. or worse).Sheldon,The only solution to your concerns (if I read you correctly) is to retrench the hobby back to the 1970's-80's era. You want to be able to walk into any LHS and buy whatever that has been recently produced even if it's months or years after it came out. You also want generic locos and a trove of available detail parts so that the modeler could customize the models themselves. For that to happen, choices must be limited to only a few items (and a wall of detail parts) or no LHS could afford it. Personally, I prefer the here and now. I don't model generic railroads; I model a specific RR. In the 1970's-80's, there was exactly zilch in accurate NH models in plastic; people modeled home roads because what they really wanted wasn't available. Just look at Tony Koester; he did the AM because he couldn't do NKP. Modeling the NKP or NH (and many other RR's) is so easy today, it's unreal when compared to 30 years ago. But if we went back to the 1970's-80's formula, there would be few if any new products; maybe 5 new engines in a decade. And there'd only be a half dozen paint schemes...ever...per new engine. Just look at this 1975 ad for Atlas diesels:http://hoseeker.net/Atlasinformation/atlassaleslist1975pg1.jpg Pretty limited selection there. Of course, you could walk into any LHS in the land and buy any of them. But if you didn't model those roads, what did you do? How was that not frustrating for newbies? You'll never get your B&O H10 or WM Pacific in plastic without today's marketing.
Well Paul you are not reading me correctly.
I don't want generic locos, I don't expect every modeler to "detail his own", although that choice is and shoud be out there.
I know every shop can't have everything, but there could be a better balance rather than the current, pre sell it, make it, blow it out, business model.
You have decided to assume that it will not work any other way than the current way. I have run a hobby shop, I have run businesses my whole life, I think it might work another way.
I can't help that BLI has always been under funded and undermined the value of their products early on by "dumping" product that did not sell fast enough.
I can't help the fact that some manufacturers don't have enough control over their source of production.
But it is not how I would do it.
In fact, I think that eliminating what few middle men are left in this business would be a good start.
If every manufacturer was willing to do two things, sell direct to any size retailer at the same or similar discount (in others words self distribute like Athearn) and at the same time sell direct to the consumer at a competitive but dealer protected price level, and thereby make an effort to keep products on the shelves for delivery to dealers and retail customers alike, distribution costs could be reduced and re-invested into inventories at both levels, the manufacturer and the retailer.
Now my next statement will be unpopular - and by doing the above, hold the line on markups to a more profitable level for manufacturers and retailers (like it was in the pre 1980's days) to fund the inventory selection and continued product developement.
Athearn, Walthers and Bachmann have already come very close to my business model, Atlas is a little farther away.
But interestingly enough, those three are the ones who still make trains in quantities significantly above preorders, or who don't always use preorders, but rather actually make trains first then sell them. Maybe I'm not crazy after all?
Sure, Athearn and Walthers use preorders to gauge the market, and Walthers does sometimes close out really old product, but they generally have a healthy business model.
MTH is stuck in that O gauge collector mentality, he will never understand the modeler side of the HO market. But I'm not interested in his disfunctional electronics either.
BLI remains underfunded or just greedy or also stuck in the O gauge collector mentality.
And the hobby faces other challenges, but I'm not up for solving them either,
tstage so much. As Rick correctly stated, it's simple economics for manufacturers. Yea, I'd love to see an NYC H-10a 2-8-2 Mike in plastic but that ain't gonna happen. It's just a reality of MRRing... Tom
Tom,I was told the same thing about a CF7, GP10 or GP16 being manufactured on the old Atlas forum.
Guess what we have the CF7 and GP10 with the GP16 on the way...
If there is a demand they will make a H-10a.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
And I would love to see that happen, Larry. $2K for a brass DP NYC H-10a just isn't in my budget these days and probably never will be.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
First off, people on this and every forum are the minority, period. The average model railroader may visit but most never sign up, let alone post. The average model railroader (these days) never goes to a hobby shop, a large number don't even buy from them online. I was never active here untill another forum I was active in changed hands. The most I have bought at a hobby store in 10 years or more is some spray paint or styrene, and I have bought a lot of stuff. The world has changed and the numbers of model railroaders has increased but the percentage of the population has gone down, the world has changed. There was a time when the hobby shop was the center of the model railroading world and you could get intrest in an item by going to enough of them, those days are long gone, in fact that trend started well over 30 years with mail order hobby houses (got burned on one of them, he went to jail for mail fraud but that didn't get my $200 back).
Sheldon,The reason why I said you wanted generic engines is because that's the only way lower the price and reduce selection to a level to which a hobby shop could afford to buy it all and have it sit on the shelf for years at a time.Did you see the photo link I posted from AA Hobbies? His shelves are full, and this is the era of the "pre sell it, make it, blow it out" business model. He doesn't have enough shelf space to hold more than a fraction of what comes out in a year (even with the basement).
You ran a hobby shop a long time ago, right? Back in the 1970's-1980's, IIRC. That's when the number of SKU's was pretty low in the hobby. The Walthers Catalog had far more European models than North American ones.
In 1971, Athearn had 275 different locos for sale at a combined MSRP of $2791 (that's $17,297 in 2017 dollars) with the old full discount to dealers. These products were made decade after decade with little to know changes. In 2012 (the last year I counted), Athearn offered 480 locos at $129,390 MSRP ($140,805 in 2017) with a short discount. Every time these modern runs are released, they have different road names and numbers. And that's just Athearn. That's not counting BLI, Atlas, IM, Bowser, Rapido, etc. It's a slightly different world we live in today with far, far more unique product being made every year.
BLI isn't underfunded to my knowledge. In the case of the USRA variations, I think it was this question: will investment in tooling = greater sales? IOW, will a $10,000-$50,000 tool increase sales by $10,000-$50,000? Their opinion was obviously no. That's not underfunding or greedy, that's making a cold, hard business decision. Sort of like you not buying BLI engines. You're not being greedy by keeping your money in your pocket; you're making a cold, hard business decision not to buy their product because it doesn't fit your business model.
Most manufacturers already sell direct to consumers at full list price: Athearn, Atlas, BLI, Tangent, Exactrail, Bachmann, Rapido, Bowser, Kadee, Walthers, etc. InterMountain is one of the few that doesn't, and Walthers is the only one that discounts the MSRP. Not too many manufacturers are willing to become distributers selling to hobby shops at wholesale (except Walthers and Athearn/Horizon Hobby; they already are distributers). For one thing, it would tick off and/or kill the distributers they still have who buy massive quantities. Secondly, the manufacturers would all have to hire staff to deal with the hobby shops and the problems they have. Again, would the profit be worth the expense? So far, that answer seems to be no.
Athearn doesn't sell to all hobby shops. When Horizon Hobby bought them, they put in a list of heavy retailer restrictions and monthly order minimums that eliminated a bunch of marginal hobby shops from their distribution chain.
Athearn and Walthers are healthy because they are also distributers. Having all the manufacturers go to a direct-to-retail business model would impact their health in a negative fashion. Not to mention the pain in the rear for hobby shops to have to maintain accounts and orders with dozens of manufacturers.
I agree with you that MTH just doesn't "get" the HO market. And BLI is, unfortunately, being lured down the O-scale tinplate road.
Paul3 And BLI is, unfortunately, being lured down the O-scale tinplate road.
And that's a pity..I have their SW7 while it may not be the often quoted "Genesis Quality" its light years beyond the old BB SW7 and I like it enough I'm considering buying a second one.
I have seen a few MTH HO scale three rail engines?! I have heard of three rail O but never HO! And I don't get why MTH makes 3 Rail anything is there some advantage to having a third rail. (no subway jokes please) Please someone tell me 3 rails advantage over 2. Thanks to all of you relies I see that there is what some consider plenty and others not. I will agree that the number of available models is pretty good and detail on said models is pretty up to snuff BUT I still feel there is room for improvement in the variety department far as western roads go. I have two BLI locos one steam one diesel both run well and were reasonable. Sadly BLI has dropped its Paragon 2 line. (at least its no longer in the menu on the website but you can "hack" in by searching Broadway Limited Paragon 2 on google and clicking the appropriate seach result but I'm sure that won't last too long.)