Hello everyone. I was recalling when I first got into the hobby back in the late 1980s. I'm an N scaler and started out with such brands as Life Like, Model Power and Bachmann most of which I purchased in boxed sets at places like Toys R Us. The thing is, back at that time there was no higher end brands like Kato, Athearn, Spectrum and so forth at least not at the train shops and stores where I shopped. Atlas was about as top of the line as I could get and even it was very limited as to what was available. Then one day I was complaining to the owner of one of the train shops that I did regular business with that I was sick of the junky locos and cheap looking rolling stock I had to work with and he introduced me to my first Kato loco and Kadee rolling stock and that was when a whole new world opened up to me. I still buy a Life Like loco or two now and then but most of my collection now consists of the higher end brands. Live and learn...
Your experience mirrors many noobs regarding many genre's. For trains, many with no guidance start out with train set level stuff but that learning curve doesn't have to be long and frustrating.
Heck in the 1970's I had Model Railroader magazine at both my public library and school library and read it throughout my teens and beyond. Reading MR and other magazines, you quickly learn there is way more than just toy train set schlock.
Really thats one of the missions of MR magazine over the years is to introduce the hobby to beginners and QUICKLY get model train fans to step away from the junk and get into decent trains and modeling and be inspired.
In fact, for many years, the magazine would prior to the Christmas season, discuss trains for Christmas and rate train sets, since that is something thats been out there as a gate way to the hobby. But MR would usually suggest instead of buying a train set, to spend a little more money and buy items separately, such as an Atlas engine and Athearn freight cars, Atlas track and an MRC power pack. Those pieces were FAR better quality than the cheap stuff in train sets. The sad part about train sets is they may discourage a train fan due to the poor quality, but by buying better quality items, a budding model railroader would be more encouraged to continue to grow in the hobby.
There were definitely ways to avoid the hard way of learning brand names - probably the biggest way to avoid that was on the shelves of many hobby shops and in libraries. ;)
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Well I started with Tyco trains, Atlas track and buildings on a 4x8 sheet of plywood. It was a fairly inexpensive way to see if I like the hobby. Reading MR led to MDC kits and then LaBelle and Central Valley and Bowser and even a little scratchbuilding. But it was definitely the Tyco's that got me into the hobby.
Starting out with high end stuff sounds good. But do you really want to spend a couple of thousand dollars just to see if you like a hobby?
Paul
I've been back and forth between HO and N a few times, when I still lived at home. Mostly because we didn;t have room for a permanent decent HO layout. I finally got fed up with the poor operation of the N scale and tossed it for good - right before the Kato/Atlas Alcos came out. I might be in N scale today had I stuck it out another year.
HO was always Tyco and AHM, had one or 2 Life Like but compared to the Tyco it was really poor quality. I also had some Tyco older than me, much nicer than the 70's stuff. Early 70's wasn't too bad, but it went downhill fast especially after Consolidated Foods bought them. Much like General Mills pretty much destroying Lionel. What's a food conglomorate know about model trains?
The mid to late 70's were the malaise years for a lot more than just US automobiles. If anything conspired to kill the hobby, it wasn't slot cars or other such nonsense, it was the absolutely horrible quality products put out under the well-known names during those years. Today's choices are MUCH better than what we had in the 70's. There are many, many fine running and finely detailed plastic models available today. Sometimes with familiar names. Some of those companies learned that they just couldn't peddle junk and expect people to keep buying.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I got back into the hobby in the early 90's. Back then there were quite a few really good model train stores in the area where I lived at the time. Many of these stores had the whole spectrum of quality trains, from the cheap train set to the high end. I was able to quickly identify the brands that were cheap, to stay away from and the high end, and good, but not the best quality, but were a good buy. Since that time, some of these brands have upped their game and some have not. I would not be afraid of Bachmann or Life Like today, as I would have been then. In fact I have some of the locomotives from both brands in my roster. The earlier Life Like locomotives that I have are from the Proto 2000 series, before Walthers bought them out. A lot of the later release Bachmann equipment may not be to the detail of Genesis or Atlas higher end, but they are great runners and a good buy.
Also, as already stated, reading MR magazine and other popular model railroad press is a good way to get educated. The main thing is to have fun, that's what it is meant to be. As the tag on one of the regulars on this forum says: "If you're having fun you're doing it the right way". Oh yes, that's Paul, the Iron Rooster!
I have owned and tried many different brands of HO trains, including as a kid the Mantua, and later, Tyco, offerings. I loved them then and enjoyed playing with them, but I do not miss those days and don't desire to go back. So, I too, learned and eventually gravitated toward higher end trains.
Though I'm picky about handrails, and some diesels just don't measure up for me, I have found that, generally speaking, the Athearn Genesis steam power is worthwhile, worth the money invested (except perhaps some of the earliest steam offerings of the early 2000's), and runs as well as anything else out there.
Others swear by other brands, and there's room for all, especially if the other brand is the only one that offers the particular engine or rolling stock you need to have.
John
IRONROOSTERStarting out with high end stuff sounds good. But do you really want to spend a couple of thousand dollars just to see if you like a hobby? Paul
Do you consider Atlas and Athearn "high end" stuff? I don't.
I think there is a significant difference between Tyco/Life Like quality trains, with truck mount couplers and Athearn and Atlas rolling stock. Athearn kits were/are easy to build, had body mounted couplers and were better quality. That is why MR magazine recommended, year after year, that anyone wanting to get their kid a trainset for Christmas, consider buying those things separately rather than a boxed trainset. The risk was that the lower quality of the train set stuff would frustrate the budding hobbyist and cause them to abandon it prematurely. Of course, not eveyone abandoned the hobby due to cheap trainsets, but some might, and understandibly so.
If I had a nickel for every model rail who could duplicate or closely parallel the OP's story I could hire a top-of-the-line layout builder to complete my empire right down to the stacked newspapers on the side table of the down platform kiosk.
My own HO - HOj experience actually pre-dates the HO train in a box era, but I have met many people who got their start that way. All hit the same fork in the road, either graduate to higher quality or take up a different hobby. If one is a dyed-in-the-wool model railroader, the higher quality will win.
Information about better quality models has always been readily available. MR and the other magazines are supported by it. Of course, many new modelers find that fork when they read the product reviews in their first-opened copy of MR...
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - slowly)
Mark, it's the same in every hobby. The interest comes first, but not the experience. In astronomy, people pay $200 for the shaky drug-store refractor with 200X power! EGADS!! Imagine, 200 power from an eyepiece that costs $12 to make. My cheapest, once I had learned a thing or two (...and had long since discarded that initial department store purchase...) was about $90, and that came with the much better telescope I had since purchased. I paid $380 for one that produced 318 power. Problem was, it almost never showed me anything recognizable because of the physics of the light path between the object and my fovea. Mostly, the air in the atmosphere....it shook, rolled, waved, and pinched the stream of photons I was hoping to see with the costly purchase. I eventually understood that most telescopes provide the sharpest and most pleasing images with magnifications less than about 120.
Imagine what amateur car buffs, or RC aircraft guys, have to learn...and hope to recover the costs of their misunderstandings on eBay.
rrinker ... HO was always Tyco and AHM, had one or 2 Life Like but compared to the Tyco it was really poor quality. I also had some Tyco older than me, much nicer than the 70's stuff. Early 70's wasn't too bad, but it went downhill fast especially after Consolidated Foods bought them. Much like General Mills pretty much destroying Lionel. What's a food conglomorate know about model trains? ... --Randy
...
Genral Mills didn't destroy Lionel. They saved the brand from extinction and continued to grow the number of offerings back into a robust, innovative line of trains. Fast-angle wheels and delrin plastics were first offered by Lionel when General Mills owned the rights to it. Lionel's last catalog in the 1960's before General Mills licensed the right to make their trains contained a whopping 1 train set! Many people deride Lionel's GM/MPC era, but it was pivotal in saving the brand and setting it back on course.
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
I started my career in the hobby business at the tender age of 14 (1971) working in the Depot Hobby Shop in Severna Park, MD. In the late 1970's and early 1980's I managed a train department in another full line hobby shop.
We started lots of new modelers off with "train sets" we put together from higher quality items. Athearn locos and car kits, Atlas track, MRC power packs, etc. Many were very happy to spend a little more understanding that these items would likely serve them much better and longer as they grew into the hobby.
Sure it cost more, but we offered package discounts on these startup sets and took the time to explain lots of stuff, Kadee couplers, using better track, etc.
At that time Athearn had been out of the RTR or set business for quite a while after being in RTR through most of the 60's. Bachmann, AHM, TYCO and LifeLike were the only choices.
TYCO was the best set stuff in terms of quality control and actual performance, but talgo couplers, poor diesel loco drives, and steam with little detail still made them not so great.
Bachmann was next behind them. Locos ran OK, but rolling stock was worse than TYCO.
LIFE LIKE set were just junk, garrantied to only last for the three weeks after Christmas........
AHM, locos ran smooth, but had issues, troublesome traction tires, etc. Rolling stock similar to Bachmann - too light, troublesome talgo couplers.....
Then Bachmann and Life Like saw the future in more detail and better quality - Spectrum and Proto are born - the hobby is changed forever by better and afordable RTR models.
Athearn then got back into RTR, Walthers and others followed suit, and here we are today.......
Sheldon
Hi, Sheldon. Don't forget that Atlas imported Roco- then Kato-drive locos in the 1970's and 1980's as RTR long before the LLP2K BL-2 and Spectrum 70 tonner. The Roco's were growly but okay, but the Katos were the best drives on the market and still hold up well even 30 years later.
What really set apart P2K and Spectrum were the details. Their original drives were either improved Athearn's (P2K) or growly (70ton, 44ton, F40PH), neither of which were better than the Atlas/Kato drives. But I remember being surprised at the applied grabs, MU hoses, see-through fans, etc. on the BL-2/70tonner. Up 'til then, these had been the trademark of quality superdetailed locos that used to sell at a premium at train shows. Seeing Life-Like and Bachmann doing this was unbelievable. I was a (youth) member of my club back then, and I remember how shocked some of the guys were over the details on these models from the "toy trainset" manufacturers. They refused to buy them until they saw them run.
P.S. Just scraped and painted another side of my 1890 house this summer. Now it's time to shore up my swayback 1890 shed. Joy!
Paul3 Hi, Sheldon. Don't forget that Atlas imported Roco- then Kato-drive locos in the 1970's and 1980's as RTR long before the LLP2K BL-2 and Spectrum 70 tonner. The Roco's were growly but okay, but the Katos were the best drives on the market and still hold up well even 30 years later. What really set apart P2K and Spectrum were the details. Their original drives were either improved Athearn's (P2K) or growly (70ton, 44ton, F40PH), neither of which were better than the Atlas/Kato drives. But I remember being surprised at the applied grabs, MU hoses, see-through fans, etc. on the BL-2/70tonner. Up 'til then, these had been the trademark of quality superdetailed locos that used to sell at a premium at train shows. Seeing Life-Like and Bachmann doing this was unbelievable. I was a (youth) member of my club back then, and I remember how shocked some of the guys were over the details on these models from the "toy trainset" manufacturers. They refused to buy them until they saw them run. P.S. Just scraped and painted another side of my 1890 house this summer. Now it's time to shore up my swayback 1890 shed. Joy!
Paul, I remember the early Atlas locos well, but you have to keep in mind it was their only item of rolling stock back then. They were great for the time, but the selection was limited, many people still wanted other styles/types, so Athearn still ruled the day in many ways.
And yes, I still consider all my early Proto stuff as on a par detail wise with anything out there today. As for the early Proto drives, well if you know how to tune up an Athearn drive, than the Proto drive can be made to run like a KATO.......
riogrande5761 IRONROOSTER Starting out with high end stuff sounds good. But do you really want to spend a couple of thousand dollars just to see if you like a hobby? Paul Do you consider Atlas and Athearn "high end" stuff? I don't. I think there is a significant difference between Tyco/Life Like quality trains, with truck mount couplers and Athearn and Atlas rolling stock. Athearn kits were/are easy to build, had body mounted couplers and were better quality. That is why MR magazine recommended, year after year, that anyone wanting to get their kid a trainset for Christmas, consider buying those things separately rather than a boxed trainset. The risk was that the lower quality of the train set stuff would frustrate the budding hobbyist and cause them to abandon it prematurely. Of course, not eveyone abandoned the hobby due to cheap trainsets, but some might, and understandibly so.
IRONROOSTER Starting out with high end stuff sounds good. But do you really want to spend a couple of thousand dollars just to see if you like a hobby? Paul
Well, the OP specifically said "higher end brands". For me that includes higher cost. Whether or not that's Athearn or Atlas can be debated, but both those lines are starting to include higher cost items, so I would hope there is a higher level of quality them.
ATLANTIC CENTRALPaul, I remember the early Atlas locos well, but you have to keep in mind it was their only item of rolling stock back then.
Guys,Let's not forget at one time Athearn made Atlas cars. IIRC that was in the 70s because I recall seeing them in the PX and again in hobby shops after I ETS in '77. I didn't buy any seeing these cars was readily available as BB kits at half the price.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
riogrande5761Do you consider Atlas and Athearn "high end" stuff? I don't.
Jim, Athearn and Atlas has probably done more to promote the hobby then any other manufacturer since both had quailty cars and locomotives at affordable prices.
Even today that old Atlas/Roco S4 is still a smooth running switcher and those 40 plus year old BB engines still roll up the miles and smiles for hundreds of modelers.
Given a choice between brands Atlas,Atlas/Kato and P2K is my first choice of locomotives and will be until Athearn's Q/A and Q/C improves.
My IM GP10 and BLI SW7 are good engines as well.
My 40+ year old Athearns and original Atlas/Roco lokies continue to turn good, reliable mileage just like Larry's. Durable engines they are and very inexpensive.
And me, being a "young guy" in the hobby, (having started scale modeling when in my early forties, back in the early 90's), I still have the the Athearn BB locos I bought back then and they still run very well. In fact, I just got an Athearn BB Alco PA-1 out of its box after not running it for about 6 years and it was as if I'd just run it yesterday. I was given that loco (and a PB-1, as well as a PA-1 dummy) back in the Christmas of '96. There are some of those locos that need some work to improve track contact and all,(and maybe it's my track!), but for the most part, they still run very well. And, I don't think I spent over $35 a piece for any of the ones that I bought back in the early to mid 90's.
When I was a youngster and did not have much money to spend on HO trains, there was a line of freight cars called "Crown" that attracted me. The cars looked just like Athearn's but were just 99 cents (and to me at the time, Athearn was high end! Why, a boxcar kit might cost $1.79). The packaging was a sheet of cardboard and a clear plastic bubble to hold the car. I later learned Crown was actually imported by Tyco/Mantua and that the similarity to Athearn was deliberate -- they found a factory in Hong Kong to make the knock offs.
But while they looked like Athearn they were not as good. They were underweighted. The plastic trucks had deeper flanges and did not roll well. The horn hook couplers were so tightly sprung that a car would derail before it would couple up. The detailing and, for the most part, the paint jobs were OK and comparable to Athearn but the similarity ended there.
I did not toss the cars but I did put them aside and years later replaced the trucks with better ones, added weight, and by then I had switched to Kadee couplers anyway. Needless to say at that point any cost "savings" was utterly gone and what I had was a car almost as good as Athearn for maybe double the cost of Athearn.
John Ruskin the famous 19th century art critic and social philosopher put it best. Of course as a teenager I was unaware of this and would not have believed had I read it anyway:
“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. Whenyou pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you paytoo little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing youbought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. Thecommon law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is wellto add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you willhave enough to pay for something better.”
Exactly!
Dave Nelson