The NMRA should be relying on the manufacturers and the retailers for the bulk of their funding. They do a great job on the standards, and the manufacturers and retailers benefit the most. and then, the NMRA can stratify its membership and drop the price of the individual hobbyist's membership. When I was working, belonged to two professional engineering organizations and the manufacturers, consultants, and distributers all paid more for membersip and did it gladly.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
SeeYou190 I never posted my review/reaction/experiences from the NMRA National Convention in Orlando last year. The reason it was never posted is because I could not make it sound like I was not bashing the NMRA, which I do not want to ever do. . But, they do deserve criticism, and I know exactly why the membership size is shrinking. It is not a mystery what the problems are. . However, I will not post my thoughts in here. I know this is not an appropriate venue. . I hope the NMRA gets its act together and recovers. They are important to the hobby and they need to live by their Mission Statement. . -Kevin .
I never posted my review/reaction/experiences from the NMRA National Convention in Orlando last year. The reason it was never posted is because I could not make it sound like I was not bashing the NMRA, which I do not want to ever do.
.
But, they do deserve criticism, and I know exactly why the membership size is shrinking. It is not a mystery what the problems are.
However, I will not post my thoughts in here. I know this is not an appropriate venue.
I hope the NMRA gets its act together and recovers. They are important to the hobby and they need to live by their Mission Statement.
-Kevin
So I take it the convention was not what you expected? Shame you won't tell us in an objective way so that others, and the NMRA, might know what you feel is wrong.
And, again, I don't need or want the convention, so it has no bearing on my choice to be a member.
But I would be interested in your thoughts.
As I explained earlier in this thread, just how small this hobby, and the NMRA membership is, how do you propose to "fix" the "problems"?
Problems are often about perception. Since I'm not a "people person", I would be the last person who could help. But I will continue to pay my dues to help those who are willing to try.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRALBut I am more than happy to pay the dues to help support the work of those able to volunteer their time. And the data sheets, standards and RP's, and other member benifits have been very valuable in my modeling.
I agree with Sheldon on this one.
I have been to maybe 5 or 6 NMRA functions, always enjoyable. But the Standards and RPs in particular are very important. One has only to look at DCC before the standard and after to see what a huge difference that has made. The other standards are just as important - imagine if your Bachmann locomotives and your Athearn locomotives ran in opposite directions for the same DC setting. Or your HO Rapido locomotive couldn't run on your HO Atlas track. And so many other things that we take for granted.
Paul
ATLANTIC CENTRALSo I take it the convention was not what you expected? Shame you won't tell us in an objective way so that others, and the NMRA, might know what you feel is wrong.
OK, I will not talk badly about the NMRA in here, so let me try this... I will tell you about the convention experiences I am used to. Conventions are supposed to be fun, fun, fun, and more fun.
I go to A LOT of conventions. This is my annual convention list:
HMGS Hurricon, Orlando, FL, Wargaming
HMGS ReCon, Orlando, FL, Wargaming
MegaCon, Orlando, FL, Comics, Gaming, Anime
MetroCon, Tampa, FL, Cosplay, Anime
Holiday Matsuri, Orlando, FL, Cosplay
Adepticon, Location Varies, Wargaming
These are the conventions I attend whenever possible:
HMGS Historicon, Fredericksburg, VA, Wargaming
GenCon, Indianapolis, IN, Gaming
DragonCon, Atlanta, GA, Fantasy Gaming
ReaperCon, Denton, TX (Rah Rah Rah), Miniature Painting
These conventions are all at hotels, or convention centers attached to hotels. So, as you can imagine, there a lot of people at these hotels that have nothing to do with the insanity (fun) going on with "that group of weirdos" over there.
Here is what we do at all these events without exception....
1) The contests are open to the public, or at least visible to the public. We love to show off what we are up to. The best way to recruit the public is to put your best efforts on full display.
2) The public is welcome, and encouraged, to join in. If you run into me at a gaming convention I am going to get you to play a game of the railroad themed "Ticket to Ride", and maybe even try to introduce you to a "Crayon Rails" game like "Empire Builder."
3) The public is encouraged to buy an event pass and completely submerge themselves into everything we are doing. How can you sustain your hobby if you are not a welcoming group.
4) The dealer room is open to only convention pass holders, but there is usually an "artists alley" where small producers can sell their wares. Artists Alley is always open to the public without a convention pass.
5) There is no elitism. If you are a new participant and your Cosplay is just a red cape, helmet, and a plastic hammer it does not matter. If your want to Cosplay as a Minion just by wearing a yellow T-shirt, overalls, and scuba mask, we will welcome you. If you are just starting in wargaming and your painted army looks poor, you can still put it on the table and roll dice. We will help you improve your painting skills. If you are just learning a game system, we have beginners events to help you along.
6) If you accidentally wander in, we will not ask you to leave. We will suck you in and make you one of us! Bwa hah ha ha ha! Welcome to the hive mind!
7) We usually have something set up to bait curious passer-bys. Paint-And-Take tables are common. If you get to try something, you are far more likely to join up.
8) We embrace the fact we are adults behaving like children and enjoying a childish pastime. We "own" it, and we are proud.
9) We welcome the next generation and the nonsense they bring with them. We don't turn away the Cosplayers that do new weird stuff. The HMGS crew has accepted the Zombie Apocolypse and Warhammer silliness. We keep our hobby fresh. Being stuffy would get us nowhere.
10) WE DRINK ADULT BEVERAGES... A LOT! We dance. We watch movies together. We eat in large groups. We laugh loudly.
How much of this do you think happened at the NMRA convention?
Like I said, I am not going to talk about the NMRA convention in any negative way, but they were in ORLANDO for heaven's sake. The place where adults go to be children. It should have been so much more.
Living the dream.
You are comparing apples to oranges.
NMRA conventions are organized by the NMRA for NMRA members. A lot of the stuff they put on isn't of interest to the general public. They are not a production backed by a commercial company that does this as a business multiple times a year in multiple locations.
I was involved in a train show years ago, we got about 4000+ over two days, at ~$10 a head. A comicon was held a week later, and they probably hit that number in the first hour. The paid parking lot was full to overcapacity, the numbers that went through the venue were amazing.
They needed those numbers. The facilities proabably cost them $100k just for the floorspace for two days, plus other fees. The cheapest ticket was something like $25. If you wanted to attend panel discussions or hear someone speak, that was extra. Want to hear William Shatner speak, an extra. Meet and Greet with Shatner, extra. Signed photo with Shatner, extra again. Average ticket was probably $75+, and many probably paid $100 or more. The organizers needed that to pay for all this.
An NMRA convention is different, again, as it is for the members and organized at a more local level. Members of the general public are probably not interested in attending a clinic on the history of freight car trucks.
Maybe at our trainshow (45,000 sq ft.) if we had charged $25 10,000 people would have came. At $75, 20,000? Somehow I doubt that.
SeeYou190 ATLANTIC CENTRAL So I take it the convention was not what you expected? Shame you won't tell us in an objective way so that others, and the NMRA, might know what you feel is wrong. . OK, I will not talk badly about the NMRA in here, so let me try this... I will tell you about the convention experiences I am used to. Conventions are supposed to be fun, fun, fun, and more fun. . I go to A LOT of conventions. This is my annual convention list: . HMGS Hurricon, Orlando, FL, Wargaming HMGS ReCon, Orlando, FL, Wargaming MegaCon, Orlando, FL, Comics, Gaming, Anime MetroCon, Tampa, FL, Cosplay, Anime Holiday Matsuri, Orlando, FL, Cosplay Adepticon, Location Varies, Wargaming . These are the conventions I attend whenever possible: . HMGS Historicon, Fredericksburg, VA, Wargaming GenCon, Indianapolis, IN, Gaming DragonCon, Atlanta, GA, Fantasy Gaming ReaperCon, Denton, TX (Rah Rah Rah), Miniature Painting . These conventions are all at hotels, or convention centers attached to hotels. So, as you can imagine, there a lot of people at these hotels that have nothing to do with the insanity (fun) going on with "that group of weirdos" over there. . Here is what we do at all these events without exception.... . 1) The contests are open to the public, or at least visible to the public. We love to show off what we are up to. The best way to recruit the public is to put your best efforts on full display. 2) The public is welcome, and encouraged, to join in. If you run into me at a gaming convention I am going to get you to play a game of the railroad themed "Ticket to Ride", and maybe even try to introduce you to a "Crayon Rails" game like "Empire Builder." 3) The public is encouraged to buy an event pass and completely submerge themselves into everything we are doing. How can you sustain your hobby if you are not a welcoming group. 4) The dealer room is open to only convention pass holders, but there is usually an "artists alley" where small producers can sell their wares. Artists Alley is always open to the public without a convention pass. 5) There is no elitism. If you are a new participant and your Cosplay is just a red cape, helmet, and a plastic hammer it does not matter. If your want to Cosplay as a Minion just by wearing a yellow T-shirt, overalls, and scuba mask, we will welcome you. If you are just starting in wargaming and your painted army looks poor, you can still put it on the table and roll dice. We will help you improve your painting skills. If you are just learning a game system, we have beginners events to help you along. 6) If you accidentally wander in, we will not ask you to leave. We will suck you in and make you one of us! Bwa hah ha ha ha! Welcome to the hive mind! 7) We usually have something set up to bait curious passer-bys. Paint-And-Take tables are common. If you get to try something, you are far more likely to join up. 8) We embrace the fact we are adults behaving like children and enjoying a childish pastime. We "own" it, and we are proud. 9) We welcome the next generation and the nonsense they bring with them. We don't turn away the Cosplayers that do new weird stuff. The HMGS crew has accepted the Zombie Apocolypse and Warhammer silliness. We keep our hobby fresh. Being stuffy would get us nowhere. 10) WE DRINK ADULT BEVERAGES... A LOT! We dance. We watch movies together. We eat in large groups. We laugh loudly. . How much of this do you think happened at the NMRA convention? . Like I said, I am not going to talk about the NMRA convention in any negative way, but they were in ORLANDO for heaven's sake. The place where adults go to be children. It should have been so much more. . -Kevin .
ATLANTIC CENTRAL So I take it the convention was not what you expected? Shame you won't tell us in an objective way so that others, and the NMRA, might know what you feel is wrong.
Everybody's idea of fun is different...........
My idea of fun does not incude this:
"10) WE DRINK ADULT BEVERAGES... A LOT! We dance. We watch movies together. We eat in large groups. We laugh loudly."
I do not hold that behavior against anyone, however, because of past experiances (an ex who was a drunk, children with addiction issues) it is not part of my lifestyle. And it is not an environment I wish to be exposed to. Been there, done that, no thank you.
Betamax is right, apples and oranges.
You seem unwilling to accept just how small the model railroading community is, and how challenging the problems are for the NMRA.
Sorry if some of us in this hobby are just too stuffy and serious for your taste.
And that is part of the problem, the hobby of model railroading is very diverse, diverse in ways that leave it splintered, no doubt.
I love trains, but I have little interest in a great deal of what many others do. Being 60 years old, and having studied real railroading and model trains since age 12, I still don't know everything, but I know what I am interested in modeling and I what I am not interested in.
I don't own some big random collection of trains, I'm not a collector. There is nothing wrong with collecting, it's just not my thing.
So how do you bring all these different but related interests together and satisfy everyone? Fact is I don't know that you can.
And, in the last two decades, the hobby as it relates to HO trains has become more splintered, not less. Why? Because the proliferation of high quality RTR has brought people into the hobby that otherwise would have never been in the hobby. This has been both good and bad.
Good:
It has kept the industry moving forward.
It has likely increased the number of active modelers, at least somewhat.
Bad (not really bad, but new challenges it created):
Increased number of collectors/casual modelers means people who are not interested (or able) to learn model construction skills, make their own minor repairs, or advance skills and then mentor others in those skills.
Has driven higher prices because of demands for "out of the box perfection", high end features, etc. Example: Early Proto2000 locos required you to install the shell. They later realized this was actually hurting sales, they now come fully assembled.......
It's like the topics on this forum some days, "My Big Boy will not go around 15" radius", "(insert brand name) did not answer my email in 10 minutes", "my train will not climb a 20% grade", "(insert brand here) is junk because they did not tell me some models are freelanced", and so on.
Kevin, one of the reasons I have never been to a NMRA national convention is travel. Only once or twice in my lifetime has it been relatively close to me, and those times were simply not convenient for me. And I have never been able to get my head around the idea of spending money traveling a great distance and getting a hotel room for such an event - but I'm not social type, I admit. And mostly my family obligations have made it impractical from a time standpoint.
And if thought for one minute I would have to deal with a bunch of rowdy drunks, that would really keep me away........
So, do you see the diversity problem..........
180,000 people attended the most recent New York Comic Con....
By many estimates there may only be 400,000 model railroaders in all of North America.......
betamaxYou are comparing apples to oranges.
I think I am comparing Gala Apples to Red Delicious Apples.
I never go to any ComiCon. This event is not for hobbiests.
HMGS is the "Historical Miniature Gaming Society", a group nearly identical to the NMRA and a hobby nearly identical to Model Railroading.
Historical Miniature Gaming involves research, collecting, painting, scnenery building, structure building, and learning rules of operation. It just lacks the electrical moving parts. Trains is missing the dice and winners/losers.
You think Model Railroaders are sticklers for historical accuracy, Hah! You should hear two WW2 gamers discussing the differences between a PzKfw-IV ausf H and a PzKfw-IV ausf J! It is just as bonkers as hearing the endless debates about the phase details of F-3s.
HMGS was in a situation similar to the NMRA. Convention attendance was down, the group was growing older, and there was this whole attitude about the hobby that If You Don't Do It Just Like This, You Are Doing It Wrong. The particpants in the hobby were always saying We Are Not Playing With Toy Soldiers, We Are Recreating An Historical Event. In reality, the hobby was outdated and computers made gaming different for the younger generation.
Sound familiar?
Miniature wargaming was a very stuffy hobby made up of old people that sat around with volumous rule books, measuring stick, calculators, and dice. They would move a unit of soldiers, consult several tables, roll dice, make calculations, consult more tables, and then move on to the next person. It looked like no-fun to the casual observer. Grown men playing with toys and pretending to be soldiers. Weird.
Then the miracle happened. The Pokemon and Warhammer gaming systems came along. German board game manufacturers released games that were simple and fun. Batllefront of New Zealand released a fun WW2 miniatures game with an easy to understand rules set. Even the old stand-by Axis and Allies got a serious revamping update. Young people were introduced to the gaming hobby in a new way that they could enjoy.
The young people began to be curious about the more "grown up" parts of the hobby with their appetites whetted by Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, and German Board Games. Zombies became all the rage.
HMGS decided to accept all these people under their umbrella. Some of the older stuffy members were deeply offended. Over the nextb ten years, they all ended up in a seperate convention room playing SeaKrieg, and still having a great time. The new participants played games with themes like Zombie Apocolypse, Steam Punk, Dystopian Society, Fantasy Battles, Monsters, WW3, etc.
This was certainly not "Historical" as HMGS would suggest, but it breathed new life into a dying hobby. The conventions are now well attended, and we all have a great time, even the SeaKrieg guys.
The board gamers were also brought into the group, and this did tons for bringing in new people. In this case, cell phone games actually helped. People could learn the rules to Settlers of Catan on the phone ap, then sit down and play at a convention table. Awesome!
Cosplay is also similar, but not as well advanced. It is a hobby that was started by kids just playing around. Then those kids grew into adults and still wanted to enjoy their past time. It is where model railroading might have been in the 40s and 50s.
The main point of this whole thing is that these groups, when they get together, welcome and encourage new people to participate. They welcome new ideas, and are now allowing the hobbies to evolve rather than make newcomers adhere to strict set of This Is How It Is Done rules and expectations.
This part of the discussion started with how the NMRA can get new members. Well... start with your conventions! There are "former-kids" out there right now in their 20s that learned about trains through Lego and Thomas the Tank Engine. They are not going to build layouts or operate trains obeying your rules for following prototype examples. There are people that loved the trains from Hunger Games, and might want to recreate that. The model railroads of the near future are going to look very different than what you are used to.
Open the doors... Welcome everyone... Make the hobby diverse.
The hobby of scale model building has also changed. Have you looked at recent copies of Fine Scale Modeler? Recent issues featured models of a Frankenstein/Bart Simpson mash-up, cardboard AT-ATs, Steam Punk creations.
A few years ago you would never have seen this stuff in Fine Scale Modeler, now it is featured prominently.
I left the International Plastic Model Society (IPMS) off my convention list because I do not participate, but I love to visit their conventions and see the models on display. When I attended their National Convention in Walt Disney World a few years ago it was also completely different than the NMRA. They were welcoming with all kinds of wonderful models on public display.
So, we know how to make a stuffy hobby group with an aging population survive, is the NMRA willing to accept a Steam Punk themed model in the contest room and award it a trophy? What are they doing to attract the Thomas crowd that now is interested in trains as a hobby, but with a fun fantasy child like theme?
Ten years ago when a Warhammer 40,000 model won "Best of Show" at an HMGS convention in Orlando many thought it was the end of the world, it was just the beginning.
If you hold your annual convention in public view, in ORLANDO, in the Orange County Convention Center, you need to be in full welcome in check out our hobby come join us and have fun mode. I will bet thousands of people were in the hotel and convention center that could have been reached out to.
If you want people to join your group, it really helps if you look like you are having fun and look like a group people want to be a part of.
Back to the main theme of this thread, about NMRA membership... put yourself in the place of a 25-30 year old. What possible value are you going to present to this person to join your group?
Think what you want of Cosplayers, but they always look like they are having fun, and people are attracted to fun.
Model Railroading Is Fun!
Kevin,
I don't care about war gaming or cosplay, or comic books or video games on ANY subject matter.
You keep missing the point. Model trains, or railfanning, already has some of what you speak of, just not from/with the NMRA.
Have you ever been to the Strasburg Railroad during Thomas week? It is so overwhelming, even for a tourist town/area, the chamber of commerce asked the railroad to limit the number of Thomas events each year.
That brought about the further franchising of the Thomas train to other locations around the country.
The Strasburg Railroad built the first "real" Thomas.
Well I can't comment on what 25 year olds want from the NMRA today, but when I joined at age 12, the Data Sheet pack alone was the greatest single modeling resource, all in one place, that I had ever seen. I still have them, I still use them.
Interesting how you skipped over my concerns about "adult beverages"......not anything I want my grandchildren around........
I also am a wargamer, as well as a model railroader.I have been to Gencon, GaryCon, and a number of DragonCons.I am glad NMRA conventions aren't full of chaos. 40,000 people running around shrieking is not my idea of a good time.I will never go to GenCon again, nor DragonCon. You can keep them.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Bayfield Transfer RailwayI have been to Gencon, GaryCon, and a number of DragonCons. I am glad NMRA conventions aren't full of chaos. I will never go to GenCon again, nor DragonCon. You can keep them.
Fair enough, but lets forget about the big Party-Cons like GenCon.
Have you been to a more "serious" wargaming convention like Adepticon, Necrnomicon, Historicon, Hurricon, or Reapercon? How about a Games-Workshop Grand Tournament? If so, what was your impression and experience like? I honestly believe if the NMRA could duplicate the experience of a Historicon event for their national convention it would vastly improve the membership totals and overall satisfaction of the members.
I have joined a few organizations just to participate in their annual conventions, but as this thread was started to discuss... what do you get for your annual membership dues to the NMRA? They say the annual convention is a big benefit of membership.
What about others that attended the NMRA National in Orlando last year? Would anyone say that convention was worth the dues and the costs to get there? Certainly someone besides me made it there. Was this gathering a benefit of membership, and if so, what did you get out of it?
I am really trying to stay on topic here!
Kevin, who are "they"? For me the NMRA has value without ever having attended a convention in 48 years.
Again, as has been repeated over and over, not just by me, why is it always about what you will get?
How about what you might be supporting? About those who came before you and made today's version of the hobby possible?
Or is that too serious and stuffy as well?
Or step up, volunteer, run for office, get involved, make a difference. I can't froma time standpoint, so I pay the money to those those who can.
And, admittedly, I know longer have any personal interest in "recruitment", I did my share of that 40 years ago behind the counter of a train shop.
ATLANTIC CENTRALWell I can't comment on what 25 year olds want from the NMRA today, but when I joined at age 12, the Data Sheet pack alone was the greatest single modeling resource, all in one place, that I had ever seen. I still have them, I still use them.
I believe that all the information contained in the data pack is now available on-line, and there is not a membership requirement to get the info. I don't know whether or not this works to the NMRA's advantage if they are trying to increase membership.
I suppose that one could ask what percentage of the current model railroad enthusiast population, other than a manufacturer, actually wants/needs/cares about that information.
maxman ATLANTIC CENTRAL Well I can't comment on what 25 year olds want from the NMRA today, but when I joined at age 12, the Data Sheet pack alone was the greatest single modeling resource, all in one place, that I had ever seen. I still have them, I still use them. I believe that all the information contained in the data pack is now available on-line, and there is not a membership requirement to get the info. I don't know whether or not this works to the NMRA's advantage if they are trying to increase membership. I suppose that one could ask what percentage of the current model railroad enthusiast population, other than a manufacturer, actually wants/needs/cares about that information.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Well I can't comment on what 25 year olds want from the NMRA today, but when I joined at age 12, the Data Sheet pack alone was the greatest single modeling resource, all in one place, that I had ever seen. I still have them, I still use them.
Actually, the data sheets are in the members only section of the web site.
And those data sheets answer correctly/more accurately hundreds of questions that are often poorly answered here..........without hoping for replies or sorting out fact from fiction.
As to what other modelers today need or want to know, I'm in the dark on that one.
Are you familiar with the kind of info in the data sheets? You might be surprised at its value to your modeling efforts......
ATLANTIC CENTRALAre you familiar with the kind of info in the data sheets? You might be surprised at its value to your modeling efforts......
I'm sorry, I thought that you were speaking about the standards. When you said "data sheets". That's what came to my mind. And that's why I mentioned about the information being useful to manufacturers.
Now, if by data sheets you mean some other form of question and answer document, then no, I am not familiar with what that might be.
Do they still give that out when someone joins? Are there updates?
Perhaps you would enlighten us by giving some examples. I would appreciate that. And that type of information would be more useful than the usual response ending with a snarky comment.........
Dick
maxman ATLANTIC CENTRAL Are you familiar with the kind of info in the data sheets? You might be surprised at its value to your modeling efforts...... I'm sorry, I thought that you were speaking about the standards. When you said "data sheets". That's what came to my mind. And that's why I mentioned about the information being useful to manufacturers. Now, if by data sheets you mean some other form of question and answer document, then no, I am not familiar with what that might be. Do they still give that out when someone joins? Are there updates? Perhaps you would enlighten us by giving some examples. I would appreciate that. And that type of information would be more useful than the usual response ending with a snarky comment......... Dick
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Are you familiar with the kind of info in the data sheets? You might be surprised at its value to your modeling efforts......
And this is the biggest problem the NMRA has, no one even knows what they have done or what they have to offer.
The NMRA Data Sheets are a very large collection of technical information, both prototype and model, on nearly every subject important to modeling.
Back in the day, they sent them to you in paper form along with the Standards and Recommended Practices. Together it fills a 2" binder.
I will explain more later, got to go.
ATLANTIC CENTRALAnd this is the biggest problem the NMRA has, no one even knows what they have done or what they have to offer.
Okay, now we're getting somewhere. I did look around their website in the benefits area, and the only thing I found related was something to do with getting questions answered, with a caveat that they were all volunteers (which I definitely understand) and if someone didn't get an answer back in three weeks they should re-ask the question.
I was not aware that there was another mountain of information available.
For the record, I am not an NMRA member. But that doesn't mean I have anything against joining, nor anything bad to say about the organization. I recognize that they have done much to expand the hobby. I just am somewhat reclusive and do not have any desire to attend conventions or things of that nature other than those involving my local model railroad buddies.
I'm working right now, but later I will post more info on the data sheets.
You have to be a member and be loged in, then there is a whole additional menu bar on the top right of the home page........
OK, the NMRA Data Sheets are a large body of technical information, on both modeling and on the prototype.
Subjects include - modeling tools, materials and methods, information on locomotives and car types, passenger car interior plans (not every one in the world), prototype lettering diagrams, signals, scenery, prototype bridge design and application, more detailed info on track than included in the Standards & RP's, architecture and civil engineering - like how wide is a street (asked twice a year at least on here), how high is a curb, etc, information of gear ratios for locos, grab iron and safety equipment on cars, numbers of steam locos built in North America by type, and on and on - I have just scratched the surface.
Here is just one of the three index pages from my orginal 1969 printed set:
And here is just one random typical page of information.
Again, my original 1969 issue of the Standards, Recommended Practices, and Data Sheets fills a 2" binder, easily 400 to 500 pages.
Much of the prototype information is obviously timeless, but starting in the late 90's, the NMRA began the work of both updating and making digital the Data Sheets. That work took many years.
As that project progressed, about 10 years ago, a well known modeler who will remain anonymous, recommended me to the Data Sheet commitee as a possible contributor for the revision of the Data Sheets. Unfortunately several unexpected family matters kept me from investing the time to help with this project.
I don't know exactly when the Data Sheet program was started, but some of the individual sheets in my 1969 set have original issues dates from the late 40's and early 50's.
Very knowledgeable and dedicated people worked hard to collect and present all this data to help modelers build better, more accurate models - long before the internet.
I suspect if you google much of this stuff you will come up blank or have to sort through a bunch of stuff to get the correct answers.
Yet here it is, at your finger tips for more than 4 decades..........
And now on the web - for the price of admission.
I have answered a lot of questions over the years on this forum, and many times I found those answers by reaching for my NMRA binder - but what do I know.......
Questions welcomed,
Thank you for the info. I don't see anything there that would intrigue me personally. However, I have an NMRA friend and I'll ask him to log in and see if the current list of items has been updated.
e
maxman Thank you for the info. I don't see anything there that would intrigue me personally. However, I have an NMRA friend and I'll ask him to log in and see if the current list of items has been updated. e
I understand, but please understand that is just a very small sample.
There is detailed info on laying track easements, building realistic culverts, bridges, roadbed profiles, basics of signaling, reporting marks and logos for all the major railroads, it pretty extensive......
So what kind of information would be of value?
ATLANTIC CENTRALSo what kind of information would be of value?
For me? Very little of what was in the contents list. Now if there were information on Penn Central or Conrail, that would be a different story.
But that is a deviation from the original subject of what does the NMRA have to offer, and why is it not advertised to potential members.
SeeYou19010) WE DRINK ADULT BEVERAGES... A LOT!
Kevin,The last thing I would want in a wargaming area is a stumbling around drunk or a idiot that can't hold his/her "ADULT BEVERAGES" .
I sure enough wouldn't want a rubber legged stumbling drunk any where next to my model display at a NMRA meet..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
People who yodel about "adult beverages...a lot" aren't adult.A brew or two while gaming, or while operating, for that matter, is another thing. I for one am very glad that the wargaming and railroading conventions I attend are NOT gigantic drunken frat parties.
Bayfield Transfer RailwayPeople who yodel about "adult beverages...a lot" aren't adult.
Maybe we are adults that has seen how one rubber legged drunk can bump into things.
One or two brews is fine but,how many will stop there? I never known anybody to stop at two brews when there's more at hand.
As one of the "young-uns" here (24) I might as well chime in with some of my thoughts. NMRA membership... I don't have one. I mentioned it a bit before in another thread, but I might as well mention some of the things holding me back.
1) Costly. Even with a student discount, the membership fees are a chunk of hobby money I can spend in other places. Budget is tight, I can either pay to go to the social club NMRA meetings, or just spend it on a piece of rolling stock or two. Or on books, magazines, paint, etc. The hobby already stretches my budget thin, I don't see how the NMRA is going to add to my enjoyment.2) Speaking of socializing, most of the younger guys I know in the hobby communicate via Facebook (I think I mentioned that in another thread too). So, we get together informally, etc. When I need hobby advice, I PM the people I know online and have a discussion with them in real time about what I need help on. Now most of them are actually prototype modeler fans, so I don't know if the hobby is going to go into the direction of "fantasy" any time soon. Most of our fantasy hobbies are done in video games, scale model spaceships, Lego sets, etc. When it comes to trains, we tend to take it pretty prototypically since we got the fantasy out on other hobbies. Now, that might change with time; but for now there is a lot of interest in prototype among my friends.
3) A lot of the higher profile modelers in my area, just aren't NMRA members. Some of them actively flaunt that they haven't been part of the NMRA in years. Others, just never have ever been part of the group. When the modelers us newcomers look up to most flaunt their dislike of the NMRA it sets an example the rest of us tend to follow.
4) The lack of high profile modelers in the local NMRA has sadly made the local chapter strapped for ideas on their monthly clinics... Sure a few great modelers still are part of the NMRA and regularly give the clinics, but you can't have a modeler (no matter how skilled they are) give a clinic again and again for months on end without it becoming stale.
5) The lack of active participants have made the local NMRA latch onto anything anyone in the area does, NMRA member or not. To many local modelers who aren't part of the NMRA have been surprised to see their photos or models featured in the monthly newsletter without advanced notification. In a way, the NMRA almost acts like any acomplishment in the local area is theirs to claim; thus negating the need to actually be part of the group. If I do something really cool someday in the hobby, the NMRA is bound to claim it as their own right? Why would I pay membership fees then when they are already highlighting my work? 6) The Master Model Builder certificate while cool in concept, feels a bit to much like Boy Scouts for me. I already got my Eagle Scout as a teenager, I don't need to join another group and work on rank advancements again. Been there, done that.
7) A group such as the NMRA should be actively promoting operations sessions at local layouts. While the local chapter has an operator focused group, it has a spotty track record; with many dates planned for operation being uncompleted due to the lack of planning or some life events interrupting the ability of the planner to get it together. I want to get into more ops sessions, but if I can't do it through the NMRA easily I might as well just stick to the grape-vine waiting list method through my Facebook friends. Its slow going, but it gets me to operate the layouts eventually.
8) NMRA data packs and all that can't compare to modern digital resources. I can find a lot of the information online now. I am lucky to live in the state very well chronicled by perhaps the greatest rail resource website ever made, UtahRails.net. If Don Strack hasn't put it in that website, I probably don't need it for my modeling goals. That site is free, available 24/7; and a great resource. Why would I need an NMRA data pack when a detailed history of things such as the entire Union Pacific diesel roster up to the turn of the millenium are a few keystrokes away?
I really hope the NMRA can eventually sort itself out. They are a good contribution to the standards of this community, and when the next "DCC" type advancement comes along they will be critical in ensuring common standards and shared functionality. However, their current program just doesn't appeal to me. My only really great moment with the NMRA was when I went to their annual train show last fall. It was well done, I had fun with my friends, and only had to pay for a few dollars at entry. I wish them well, I know why they don't appeal to me; but I hope they figure out the core problems in their method and make changes to perhaps have a broader interest group over time.
xboxtravis7992 As one of the "young-uns" here (24) I might as well chime in with some of my thoughts. NMRA membership... I don't have one. I mentioned it a bit before in another thread, but I might as well mention some of the things holding me back. ...........
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Travis, I don't know anything about the modeling community in your area, and it is really is not important. I don't know what "high profile" modelers you are refering to who are bashing the NMRA to others, and that is not really important.
I joined the NMRA at age 12, I did not join it to go to events or conventions......
My reasons have been clearing explained several times above.
I have no problem with your choice not to join, or anyone elses choice not to join.
But I am bothered by some of the "bashing" from outside the organization. If you don't think it is a fit for you, or don't want to spend part of your hobby dollars that way, fine, go about YOUR business and keep your nose out of NMRA business. By you I mean the collective "YOU" of people who choose not to be members, not you personally.
But I would point that finger at anyone with a public persona in the hobby. It does the hobby no value for people in the "public eye" of the hobby to endlessly bash an organization that is:
a) largely responseable for the fact that their Proto2000 loco runs on their Atlas track and can be controlled by their NCE DCC system.
b) virtually a completely volunteer effort with widely different local support and participation from region to region. What goes on where you are is likely nothing like what goes on here in the Mid Atlantic.
This one forum is the closest thing to "social media" that I do. I have belonged to clubs and round robin groups in the past, but not at present - It does not suit my time, needs or desires at present. If I want to talk to a fellow modeler, I have their phone numbers and email addresses, and I do know how to text :)
Yes, I'm an old guy, 60 years old - but again, I started in this hobby when I was less than half your age. And I don't just mean a train set on a piece of plywood.
At age 12 I was building Silver Streak wood/metal rolling stock kits, hand laying TruScale "self gauging" track, building Mantua steam loco kits, etc. By age 15 I was doing the repairs and working behind the counter in the local hobby shop. And I was a member of a nationally recognized club - The Severna Park Model Railroad Club - google it - their layout appeared on the cover of Model Railroader 4 times.....
I had a 100 sq foot layout with hidden staging, elevated track, plaster mountains, lighted structures, etc.
I can afford to support the NMRA, I spend more than the anual membership every week taking my wife out to dinner, so I would be embarrassed to suggest that I can't spare that money - I know I am blessed, and supporting the NMRA is kind of a "pay it forward" since I don't have time to be otherwise involved.
But instead of telling people what is wrong with an organization you are not a member of, join, help make changes, make it better - OR - go your own way.......
Most people in this hobby have never taken the time to understand how the NMRA is structured. They fail to understand the that regions and divisons are completely the result of volunteer effort. If no one joins, and no one volunteers, they simply don't exist. There are several inactive divisions here in my area for that reason.
Until you understand the history, and the process, and the original purpose, your opinion on the "value" of the NMRA truely only applies to you.
I have great respect for those willing, able, and interested in being active in an organization like the NMRA. I personally know one of the earliest people to earn the Master Model Railroader designation.
Personally, much of that is not for me, but that does not stop me from being repectful and appreciating the efforts of those who do make the NMRA run, and supporting their efforts with my dues.
The NMRA does not have the resources to magicly be the "facebook" of model trains - not unless the other 95% of people in this hobby join..........
BRAKIEMaybe we are adults that has seen how one rubber legged drunk can bump into things.
Larry,
I kind of intended #10 to be a semi-tounge-in-cheek humorously exaggerated statement, but i guess that was lost somehow. Oh well.
I guess it was naive to think that maybe the way to improve membership was to be approachable, enjoyable, and welcoming to the public.
I guess everything should stay as it is. Nevermind.
SeeYou190 BRAKIE Maybe we are adults that has seen how one rubber legged drunk can bump into things. . Larry, . I kind of intended #10 to be a semi-tounge-in-cheek humorously exaggerated statement, but i guess that was lost somehow. Oh well. . I guess it was naive to think that maybe the way to improve membership was to be approachable, enjoyable, and welcoming to the public. . I guess everything should stay as it is. Nevermind. . -Kevin .
BRAKIE Maybe we are adults that has seen how one rubber legged drunk can bump into things.
Kevin, those of us who did not attend in Orlando, and who maybe don't go to a lot of conventions of any kind, are still wondering what you expected and why you were disappointed?
It's like you think we should all be able to read your mind, or that we all like the kinds of things you like, and so that is what the NMRA needs to do?
I am more than interested in actual facts and your opinion of specific things you think should be better and how.
Approachable and enjoyable are both pretty subjective in my world. I am a private person, but I'm not the least bit timid. So aproachable would be anybody with an event staff nametag, etc.
Enjoyable - not sure we could have a meeting of the minds there......
Welcoming? again, please be more specific, I failed "intuition" class, I'm a nerdy introvert.
Knowing "Travis" in person (that's not his real name, but due to circumstances that I am familiar with, I will give him a pass on that), I'll point out that he and I are also "nerdy introverts." Not sure how being one negates the desire for a welcoming environment.The "bashing" he spoke of comes from people who have become disenfranchised from the NMRA due to bad experience, or because of, as others have already stated, the perceived lack of value in a full membership. It's an interesting situation when the VP of the Rocky Mountain region hasn't been a member for years and yet nobody from the NMRA actually questions that. One of the people organizing next year's national convention isn't a member either.The points that Kevin and "Travis" are making is that our culture is changing. My generation is not the same as Sheldon's generation by any stretch of the imagination. An organization in the 2010s that continues to operate as if it is the 1980s will fail after not too long if it does not adapt to the changing culture of its target audience.