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hesitate Rivarossi 2-10-2 S-1

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hesitate Rivarossi 2-10-2 S-1
Posted by LEOFUTURE on Monday, March 27, 2017 3:55 PM

still a newbie. Any help will be highly appreaciated! 

When I use wire leads to test the motor directly, the motor runs fine with no spark. But when I hook up a tender with drawbar it runs hesitate at best and there seems to be spark in the motor, sometimes on the drawbar. I don't see sparks when I
use wire leads to test the motor directly.
 
When I examine the electrical path, it seems the motor's two wires, one from the tender drawbar and goes to the headlight, and another soldered to the metal weight (but I don't know where it picks up electrcity from the wheel. See below. I looked at HOseeker, but the diagram does not seem to have the wire goes to the headlight.
 
Could someone shed some light on this? Thanks!

 

 

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Posted by steemtrayn on Monday, March 27, 2017 4:43 PM

Does the drawbar have a spring that maintains constant electrical contact with the pin on the tender?

 

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Posted by Mheetu on Monday, March 27, 2017 5:31 PM

Check the Brushes on the Motor and clean the commutator,  the older rivarossi pick up power from the engine frame directly, (the chasis is not insulated). 

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Posted by LEOFUTURE on Monday, March 27, 2017 6:15 PM

drawbar does have a spring, it relies on the tension to maintain constant electrical contact with the pin on the tender, it is there but I can't say it's too good.

steemtrayn

Does the drawbar have a spring that maintains constant electrical contact with the pin on the tender?

 

 

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Posted by LEOFUTURE on Monday, March 27, 2017 6:19 PM

It does pick up power from the engine metal weight shown in the picture (is that the frameyou are referring to?)

 

Do you think the spark comes from dirty brush/commutator? I asked this because when I test the motor directly using 2 wire leads it seems to be work fine w/o sparks

Does it require motor dissembling? The motor is square shaped as shown in the pic, it seems the brush/commutator are inside w/o good access, how would one do the cleaning? Thanks!

Mheetu

Check the Brushes on the Motor and clean the commutator,  the older rivarossi pick up power from the engine frame directly, (the chasis is not insulated). 

 

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Posted by zstripe on Tuesday, March 28, 2017 12:52 AM

LEOFUTURE
When I use wire leads to test the motor directly, the motor runs fine with no spark. But when I hook up a tender with drawbar it runs hesitate at best and there seems to be spark in the motor, sometimes on the drawbar. I don't see sparks when I use wire leads to test the motor directly.

Sounds to Me like You have a bad wire connection somewhere. Could be a corroded contact point, intermittant contact, hence the spark. Clean all wire contact points, with CRC 2-26 Electrical lube and cleaner. You may even have a wire barely making contact in a soldered connection. That is a fairly old engine and the wires/connections do corrode over time.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/CRC-2-26-5-oz-Multi-Purpose-Lubricant-02004/100398344

Good Luck! Big Smile

Frank

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Posted by ATSFGuy on Wednesday, March 29, 2017 11:47 AM

BLI released 2-10-2's back around 2014/2015, they are equipped with sound and DCC. If I were you, I'd just get a new locomotive rather then trying to fix an old engine that will fail again down the road.

How old is that locomotive and when did you get it?

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Posted by yougottawanta on Wednesday, March 29, 2017 11:52 AM

Leofuture

I see you already have several good answers. 

Rather than repeat earlier comments, let me invite you to Jeffries diner where we talk about model railroading and some off topic subjects. Hope to see you there and tell FLO to put your meal on YGW tab.

 

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Posted by ggnlars on Wednesday, March 29, 2017 12:30 PM

 Lost Rivarossi steam engines get the electrical connection from one side of the engine and the other side of the tender.   I find the drawbar is pushing the tender off the track and that is causing the hesitant behavior. What do you need to do is make sure the drawbar is not causing this tension and also put some more weight in the tender I also put washers between the tender body and the trucks, particularly in the front.  

So many trains, so little time,

Larry

www.llxlocomotives.com

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Posted by Mheetu on Wednesday, March 29, 2017 6:05 PM

LEOFUTURE

It does pick up power from the engine metal weight shown in the picture (is that the frameyou are referring to?)

 

Do you think the spark comes from dirty brush/commutator? I asked this because when I test the motor directly using 2 wire leads it seems to be work fine w/o sparks

Does it require motor dissembling? The motor is square shaped as shown in the pic, it seems the brush/commutator are inside w/o good access, how would one do the cleaning? Thanks!

 

 
Mheetu

Check the Brushes on the Motor and clean the commutator,  the older rivarossi pick up power from the engine frame directly, (the chasis is not insulated). 

 

 

 

 

 

Well it possible being that these Riviarossi engine are made in the 70's and 80's, it might help to clean the motor up.  This link show one of the fourm members that have disassemble one of these square motors.

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/120264.aspx

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Posted by Mantua Man on Thursday, May 18, 2017 1:32 PM

Hello!

 Though I don't know much, I might be able to shed some light on this subject. I would immediately take the tender out of the equation. Rivarossi tenders were almost always made out of plastic with no electrical connection to the locomotive. Why rivarossi developed them with metal draw bars as well as tender hooks, I do not know. The 2-10-2 that I own is made by rivarossi and I know the motor I have likes to lock-up. I have no idea why. when it does this, the ball bearings then establish a full current from the positive rail to the negative. This would cause sparks and poor running your describing. I haven't found a natural fix for this, but i'm planning on remotoring my locomotive and seeing if that fixes it. If not, the drawbar might be coming into contact with the metal plate holding the rear truck. This scenario would cause the same sparking and failed running. Just an idea. I hope the best of luck for you.

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Posted by RR_Mel on Thursday, May 18, 2017 2:00 PM

All older Rivarossi locomotives need some TLC, I have twenty older Rivarossis and after a good cleaning and tweaking they make great runners.  All of the above advice is good, be patient and keep after it and you will have a good runner.  As stated above the tender is the Rivarossi weak point.  They need some added weight and CRC2-26 lube at the bolster.  Make sure the spring between the truck screws and trucks are in place.  Bend the drawbar spring to insure it makes good contact with the tender tow pin.  
 
Edit:
 
Check for rust at the rivet in the drawbar where the wire spring attaches.  There should be a solder tab on one corner of the motor going to the ground side brush held in place by a motor screw, I had one that had a very fine crack in the solder tab.
 
I don’t have a 2-10-2 but a Canon EN-22 can motor or Faulhaber 2224RS work very good in the Rivarossi articulateds.
 
Mel
 
Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
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Posted by bibbster on Thursday, May 18, 2017 3:52 PM

LEOFUTURE, I'm having similar issues with a Rivarossi Heisler (3 truck) so thank you for brining this up!

Another issue I'm having is that there is a smell like an old '60s TJet slot car. That smell for the slot car meant oil on the commumator and/or brushes or a dying motor. Does that same thing hold true for the Rivarossi motors?

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Posted by Mantua Man on Friday, May 19, 2017 7:33 AM

bibbster

LEOFUTURE, I'm having similar issues with a Rivarossi Heisler (3 truck) so thank you for brining this up!

Another issue I'm having is that there is a smell like an old '60s TJet slot car. That smell for the slot car meant oil on the commumator and/or brushes or a dying motor. Does that same thing hold true for the Rivarossi motors?

 

I know for the bunch of Rivarossi's I have that they tend to build up dust inside of them causing them to smell terrible after a couple of runs. The solution I learned for this is to just run them until the dust burns out. It happens frequently so its a good way to tell wheather or not its been run in a while. No damage to the motor ever occurs unless someone tries to use a cleaning agent to get the dust out (Wouldn't advise as it usually ruins the motor) After a while the motor will have burned the dust out and will stop smelling and run as it had before. This run time can take anywhere from a couple of seconds to (My longest case) ten minutes or more. No motor I have ever done this to has burned out or shot, all of my rivs are now running just fine, though I may need to go back and dust run them again. Just food for thought.

 

If this doesn't work, then there is more than likely something in the motor that doesn't need to be there. I've heard some stories at the club about some people putting sorts of conducter liquids in motors before and that causing the motor to smell terrible as it was burned by the heat produced (Suprised more damage didn't happen because of that). If there is some sort of oil or liquid in the motor, the dust run trick should still eventually burn it away, though it will take much longer as it is much more resistant than dust.

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Posted by bibbster on Friday, May 19, 2017 7:52 AM

Thanks, Mantua Man. I only ran it for about 30 seconds before smelling the odor at which point I stopped running it. I bought it off ebay and the seller said it has been in storage since he bought it new. Not sure if I believe it, but I have no reason not to. lol I'll give it another run and see how it does after 10 minutes or so.

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Posted by BMMECNYC on Sunday, May 21, 2017 3:20 PM

Is one of the tender trucks reversed, assuming split pick up between the locomotive and tender?   Could one of the wheels in the tender truck be reversed possibly, causing an intermittant short if tender trucks are not making good contact?

Rule 108: In case of doubt or uncertainty, the safe course must be taken.
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Posted by Mantua Man on Monday, May 22, 2017 7:50 AM

BMMECNYC

Is one of the tender trucks reversed, assuming split pick up between the locomotive and tender?   Could one of the wheels in the tender truck be reversed possibly, causing an intermittant short if tender trucks are not making good contact?

 

 I would find it hard to have the trucks and/or the wheels being reversed; heres why. On rivarossi 2-10-2 models the tender is a 12 wheeled vanderbuilt. The way rivarossi produced the tender trucks is so that they are mounted on once side of the truck, not the middle. This would make finding which end of which much easier as well as making it harder to reverse the truck poles without diss-assembling it as they would stick out the sides and have to pass through the mounting ladders.

Switching the wheels around is possible, but very difficult. In the rivarossi design there is a large piece (Metal or plastic depending on the year) holding the wheels in place. If someone decidided to switch the wheels around than it would most definantly leave some remenants behind such as scratches, bends, and dents in the plastic/metal.

I tell you, deciphering the problem with this loco is tricky. I spent the weekend looking all over mine and I cant seem to find anything that would cause a short. Very intresting.

As for Bibbsters post, I can almost for sure say it is the dusty motor poles. If its been sitting in open, or even closed storage, for a time than it will definantly collect dust. Depending on how long its been sitting it can build up many levels of dust. I have an old Varney loco that I've posted about, and when I first ran it, it began smoking because of all the dust in it. I took some tweezers, an air duster, and some time off my hands, and it runs much better now (Especially without the retched smokeWhistling). Just running the rivarossi loco should clean out the motor. As I said it could take varoius amounts of time depending on how much dust it in it. If you want to clean it faster (Only works for the square motors) than take an air duster and blow it through the open slot on the side of the motor. If its a round motor than just run it out. This will burn out the dust and also get the motor used to running giving it a better performance.

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