HO vs HO visual comparison

[Bernie]

I'm new to the hobby and am planning my first layout.  I have a lot of sectional Atlas brass track and DC trains from when I was a kid, and thus it's kind'a beat up.  Lately, I have been buying a lot of new DCC/sound locos, and Peco nickel track in anticipation of the final layout.  One thing I want as part of my layout is a subway system, but nobody makes HO subway cars.  There's a few old HO NYC subway cars on the market, but my railroad is modern.  I found some modern Japanese subway cars that fit the role perfectly if I just replace the Japanese lettering with English.  Unfortunately, we Americans model in HO, but the rest of the world models in OO.  HO and OO use the same HO gauge track, but OO models are slightly bigger for historical reasons. So can someone post a photo of an OO and HO model (preferably the same model, such as an SD-70, for example) side-by-side to see if the size difference is noticable?  Thanks, much :-)

[DSchmitt]

Bernie

Unfortunately, we Americans model in HO, but the rest of the world models in OO.  H

Actually OO scale 1/76 (for British prototypes) is the most common British scale.  Most Japanese HO is 1/80 (for most Japanese prototypes) but they do make some 1/87 .  HO 1/87 is US and Europe.   The Japanese HO scale is approximately half way betweem OO and HO in size.

Japanese cars are generally a little smaller than New York cars but the sizes of both vary. Typical dimensions (approx): 

NYC L about 60' W 9' 9"  H 12'

Japan L 53'  W 8' 4"  H 11' 5"

So a Japanese 1/80 scale is probably not too far off representing a US 1/87 car.

In isolation it would not be possible to tell and even sitting next to a US 1/87 car a Japanese 1/80 car would probably not look too large.

[bearman]

There is a model railroader who posts a lot under the handle "Broadway Lion".  He is a monk in N Dakota and models the NYC subway.  He also has a lot of modelling methods that work but are definitely low cost, vows of poverty and all that.  My guess is he can be a wealth of information on your question.

 PS:  And as the Broadway Lion would end his posts...ROAR!

[7j43k]

Re-iterating what Dschmitt said, it is NOT true that the "rest of the world" models in OO.  On HO track.

There was once FULL OO in this country.  That would be 4mm to the foot, rather than 3.5mm.  Track gage was widened from HO to match.  As opposed to the Brits.  Who kept the gage the same as standard HO but bulked up their models by about 15%.  

My first steam engine was a cast metal Tenshodo 0-6-0T.  Aside from having drivers a bit too large and a funny cap on the stack, it bulked out nicely to an American tank engine, say, for logging.  It was really, I am told, a model of a Japanese locomotive done in 1/80.  As opposed to 1/87.1.  Sweet little engine.

 

Ed

[jjdamnit]

Bernie

There's a few old HO NYC subway cars on the market, but my railroad is modern.

Hello all,

Could you give a more specific time frame for your pike?

Hope this helps.

[Anonymous]

Others have said it before, only UK and Japan have a different scale, but also run on 16.5mm track. The rest of the world is true HO scale.

UK uses OO gauge, which is 1/76 scale on 16.5mm track and Japan uses HOj scale, which is 1/80, also running on 16.5mm track, supposedly representing 3 1/2 ft. gauge - the Japanese "standard gauge" for all trains other than the bullet trains.

Modelin a subway is a bit of a challenge, as there is very little choice of equipment. I can´t remember seeing any affordable, mass-produced subway cars than the old Walthers line and the more recent MTH set.. I also can´t imagine, that a 1/80 scale Japanese subway car looks at home on a nothern American layout.

If you do a Google search, you may find your way to a few kichen counter businesses making more recent cars, but beware - they are not cheap!

[azrail]

Most of the world, esp Europe, uses 1/87 for HO and 1/160 for N, British and Japanese N scale are slightly larger than 1/160. The UK is the only major market that still uses OO (due to the size of electric motors in the past)

[Bernie]

Is your question for me, jjdamnit?  It's still in the early planning stages, so I'm sort'a flexible.  By modern, I mean within the past 20 years to the present.  I'm not a nit-picker, so I do plan to have Metroliners sitting next to P42s in my fiddle yard, even if I don't run them at the same time. 

[Bernie]

Hi, Sir Maddog.  Actually, there's an abundance of modern Subway cars if you don't mind replacing Japanese lettering with English (or whatever is your language).  Unfortunately, modern NYC subway cars are MIA, but my layout isn't specific to NYC, so any modern-looking subway fleet will work fine for me.  But they're in Japanese OO scale, which led to my original question.  Thanks :-)

[dknelson]

While American HO at 1:87 is not the same scale as the popular English OO/HO, as a rule British prototypes are smaller than American so that the general look of their OO looks OK to us on HO track.  Genuine American OO scale where the scale and the gauge were correct was visibly larger than HO -- it is ages since I have seen any but I recall an OO scale caboose, and Lionel and a nice looking NYC Hudson in OO that you could immediately see was larger than HO.  But the British models tend not to look bigger in that same way so if you see some British or Japanese models, don't rule them out just because they are not 1:87.

There are some options for subway cars.  Since the all tend to look alike (to my eyes) you might even explore the Freteschi models, which have overheard pantographs but if those were removed they'd sure look like subway cars to me:

http://www.frateschi.com.br/web/trens-metropolitanos/

 

 

6318 - CPTM

 

There are also some resin cars

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/ho-scale-new-york-city-r32-subway-cars-mike-bartel 

Dave Nelson

[tomikawaTT]

Japanese-prototype mass transit cars can make acceptable 'foobie' subway cars - the KuMoHa73 and 100 series cars were very similar in design to the Grand Concourse Line IND cars I rode as a high school student in Da Bronx.  Add third rail pickup, ditch the pantographs and most people would never know that you're running HOj - 1:80 scale models of 3' 6" gauge prototypes.

Models of Shinkansen high speed rolling stock are usually built to 'true' HO scale because the prototypes are standard gauge - but no way would they be mistaken for rapid transit/commuter service cars.

Consider that prototype New York subway cars were shorter and narrower than ordinary railroad equipment, and that subway/elevated trackage was and is run as an isolated system.  A little oddness and incompatibility is totally acceptable.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - from my own photos and field notes)

[hon30critter]

Hey Bernie!

Welcome to the forums!!   

The only example that I can offer has to do with vehicles. I'm modelling in HO. I used to own an MGB so I thought it would be cute to have a couple on my layout. The only ones I could find were OO scale by Oxford Models. They didn't work out very well because when I put one of the MGBs beside a Classic Metal Works '55 Chevy they were the same size. The MGB should have been about three feet shorter and much lower. The tires on the 'B' were actually bigger than the Chevy's. Lots of people might not notice but the discrepancy was unacceptable to me. By the way, I did measure the '55 Chevy and it was to scale.

That's probably not the best answer to your question, but it does demonstrate that OO and HO may not work out as well as hoped when they are side by side.

Dave

[steemtrayn]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HO-NYCTA-R40-Slant-Nose-Subway-Car-Resin-Body-2-Shell-Set-from-IHP-/132118119201

 

http://islandmodelworks.com/Subway.html

 

[joe323]

I was going to suggest Island Model Works as well you order the shells from them and mechanics are from Bowser.  

[DSchmitt]

The OP has already identified some Japanese models that appear to fit his needs, but is woried because he is woried that because they are 1/80 scale that they are too big to look right with 1/87 HO scale.  Since Japanese prototypes are generally a little smaller than similar US prototypes, they might not be too big.  

Also even if they are a little oversize, it would most likely that to be able to tell they are too big, they would have to be compared with a 1/87 model of the same prototype. In the real world very similar things can vary greatly in size. Even sitting next to a building, auto, people, etc might not reveal  a descrepency in size. 

1/80 and 1/87 are close enough to often work together on a 1/87 scale layout

Extreme differences in scale:

http://www.bizarbin.com/giant-trucks/

 

[Bernie]

Thanks, everybody! 

The R32 cars are too dated for my layout.  And the Brazilian cars don't seem to be available in the US. 

But I understand that HO and OO is close enough for my needs since the subway won't be running alongside my mainline.

[Auldsalt]

DSchmitt

NYC L about 60' W 9' 9"  H 12' Japan L 53'  W 8' 4"  H 11' 5"

60 ft 0.00 in L x 9 ft 9.00 in W x 12 ft 0.00 in H
in HO is 210.21 mm L x 34.16 mm W x 42.04 mm H

53 ft 0.00 in L x 8 ft 4.00 in W x 11 ft 6.00 in H
in HOj is 201.93 mm L x 31.75 mm W x 43.82 mm H

In HOj, 201.93 mm L x 31.75 mm W x 43.82 mm H translates to HO dimensions of
57 ft 7.65 in L x 9 ft 0.75 in W x 12 ft 6.08 in H, respectively.

The Japanese car would therefore scale to a prototype that was/is

• Under on length, by 2 ft 4.35 in, or by approximately 3.937 percent,
• Under on width, by 0 ft 8.25 in, or by approximately 7.051 percent, and
• Over on height, by  0 ft 6.08 in, or by approximately 4.219 percent.

Unfortunately, I don't know how the Japanese prototypes are scaled for occupant height, and I haven't measured any figures to determine their sizes, but if I've kept my numerators and denominators in their respective correct positions, an HO figure scaled to:

• 72 inches tall would appear 68.96 inches tall in the HOj model;
• 64 inches tall would appear 61.30 inches tall in the HOj model;
• 48 inches tall would appear 45.98 inches tall in the HOj model;
• 42 inches tall would appear 40.23 inches tall in the HOj model.

Supposedly, "20mm-scale" is 1:80.5; however, there are 1/72 figures listed for sale under a search for 20mm-scale.  Either way, I'm not entirely sure what you'd find there would give a realistic appearance for the setting you're modeling.

On the other hand, a figure that (when standing erect) measures 20mm from the top of its head to the soles of its feet, would be 68.5 inches tall in HO scale -- which is reasonably close to the height of the average adult male in the USA.  For what it's worth: in HO, 21mm translates to 71.9 inches; 22.5mm translates to 77.1 inches.

I hope you found this helpful.

[Tinplate Toddler]

Bernie

Hi, Sir Maddog.  Actually, there's an abundance of modern Subway cars if you don't mind replacing Japanese lettering with English (or whatever is your language).  Unfortunately, modern NYC subway cars are MIA, but my layout isn't specific to NYC, so any modern-looking subway fleet will work fine for me.  But they're in Japanese OO scale, which led to my original question.  Thanks :-)

 

Japanese prototype HO scale models are 1/80 scale, which means they are nearly 10% oversize. Most of what you call subway cars are not true subway cars, but commuter train cars, the difference being the overhead pick-up instead of a third rail pick-up. None of them would look at home on a US-prototype based layout.

OO scale, btw, is only to be found in Britain!

[SeeYou190]

Auldsalt

Supposedly, "20mm-scale" is 1:80.5;

Hold on there. 20mm is a Wargaming size, like 15mm, 28mm, 54mm, and so on. These are not scales.

Introducing this "not-a-scale" to a discussion of scale models will be completely confusing,

-Kevin

[gregc]

ho vs oo google images

[richhotrain]

Auldsalt

 

I hope you found this helpful. 

Probably not Bernie (the OP) who came and went 2 years ago after starting this thread 3 years ago. 

Rich

[riogrande5761]

Ah, yet another necro topic.  

I found the title, as is often the case here, a bit weird and confusing.

"HO vs HO visual comparison"

At plain reading it makes not sense.  Modus operandi.  

[Auldsalt]

My intent by such mention wasn't to offer it as a substitute for scale, per se, but to offer that it's a potential source for in-scene people.  The caveat that YMMV is a foregone conclusion: there's a chance that it wouldn't work at all, but there's a very good chance that it might -- and because of the latter, I felt it was worth mentioning as a potential starting point.

Ostensibly, 20mm includes "human" characters and "sci-fi" characters, being not exclusively devoted to wargaming; I can imagine some of the fantasy characters would look at home on the sidewalks of NYC, or Sacremento or LA, or Vegas or NOLA, etc.  Plus, soldiers and sailors, airmen and marines travel alongside civilians.

If you're somewhere that you have access to these things, where you can physically handle them and do a comparison and contrast -- then I think someone who's already looking at mixing scales (HO and HOj) owes it to himself or herself, to at least take a look-see and decide for himself or herself whether the figures will work in the projected layout environment.

From what I understand, the only other alternatives available to the OP were both unacceptable; the first of the two options being to abandon the idea altogether, and the second being to scratch-build the desired rolling stock.

Granted, the latter of those options would allow the use of off-the-shelf HO figures (which may or may not be "closer to scale" than an out-of-scale alternative), but that potential advantage was rendered moot when the OP indicated a build "from scratch" wasn't acceptable.

[Auldsalt]

they were listed as "wargaming scales" (or words to that effect) in a Wikipedia list of modeling scales. yeah, I know: "Wikipedia" -- but I think it falls within popular usage/understanding of the concept, respecting miniatures.