richhotrainBut, in deference to cuyama and the others who have replied to this thread, true operations on a model railroad involve the simulation of the prototype and, for operation-oriented modelers, it is a lot of fun to add the "complexity" of CC&WB.
Rich,
I find all of it fasicinating, but my eye glaze over when reading it. lol. It's all just a reminder of how much I (we) still have to learn...
Rich,That complexity is why I decided to dump CC/WB. I knew there was a simpler way of doing things even a switch list is better and will work on any size layout since we do not really need to know all that gibby goo stuff contain on a waybill.
As I mention a yard conductor uses a switch list and following that list he can make up a 10,000 foot train without even seeing a waybill.
Since Doug Smith's '61/62 CC/WB article I thought CC/WB was all that and a bag of chips too for model operation even though my railroad experience taught me better.
So,I decided a simpler switch list would suffice and it does. The days of shifting through waybills for one of the 10 WBs used on Pickens boxcar number 1981 has ended for me.
Another thing is once a car has been rotated through the system it disappears for 3-4 months before its rotated back through the N&W/SSR interchange. Keeping 600 waybills for 60(recall each car has 10 WBs) cars plus the need to route every new car card ten waybills got tiresome-finding a shipper,routing and end receiver on my layout.
A example: Klipper Canning Co located in Seattle Wa to Mid States Grocery..What route BN/BRC/NW to SSR or BN,NW/SSR? I then had to research BN/NW interchange points for the best routing or would the car go through Chicago's bottle neck and that may add a week to the transit time?
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE Keeping 600 waybills for 60(recall each car has 10 WBs) cars
That's way overkill and makes CC&WB seem much more complex than it actually is. As I mentioned before, just swap out a small number of waybills between similar cars and you have plenty of options without that extreme.
BRAKIEWhat route BN/BRC/NW to SSR or BN,NW/SSR? I then had to research BN/NW interchange points for the best routing or would the car go through Chicago's bottle neck and that may add a week to the transit time?
Routing is totally optional on model waybills. Some folks find it interesting and include it, some don't.
CC&WB can be extremely simple and easy. The one- or two-move waybills I use on my small switching layouts (swapping them out during restaging) require a minute or two each to write and can be used forever.
CC&WB can work fine, switchlists can work fine. Neither needs to be as complicated as you are describing for a small switching layout.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
The most prototypical way to route cars is with minature waybills or CC&WB and handwritten switchlists. That is more or less how every railcar in the US was moved between about 1900 and 1970.
Any way you slice it it, if you are routing a car to a specific place, something or someone has to remember where the car goes. On a real railroad the routing information is written on a waybill and the waybill retains the information. To make a switch list, you read the waybill then transcribe just the information you need for the crew to do the job. But the waybill is the source document. Works the same way today with computerization, except instead of a hardcopy document the waybill is a record in a a data table. When a yardmaster wants to generate a switchlist, the computer looks at the waybill information (or a table derived from the waybill) and uses that to build the switch list. Either way the waybill is the source of the data.
I use CC&WB because its so flexible and easy to customize the operation. I use two move waybills (load in-empty out or empty in-load out) and have about 3 or 4 waybills per SPOT (not car).
I have thought about using CC&WB and handwritten lists, but don't want to "waste" the time generating the lists.
I have set up JMRI on my layout just to see how it works and if you want computerized switch lists, I would recommend it. I could easily get about 80% of what I wanted to do, but that last 20% was going to take more work than I wanted to invest (once you have to start adding psuedo tracks and yards or special car kinds to trick the computer system, I lose interest). I have found that the computer list programs do a pretty good job at replicating an industry switchlist that a local would use. They aren't as swuft at handling yard operations. I have only seen a couple that can handle the concept of "standing order" (as far as I know, JMRI does not). Standing order is important in making switch lists for use in a yard. The most basic switch list there is, the "dinger" is based entirely on standing order.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Here's where CC/WB operation goes South..A real yard conductor doesn't see a waybill since he has no need to. A road conductor turned his bills into the yard office and the yard clerks write up switch list for the yard conductor with copies for the brakemen. If the cars are being hump then a copy to the hump operator.
Larry, you're looking at this through the wrong end of the telescope. No model railroad has an army of yard clerks to handle the paperwork and the yard "conductor" is also running the switch engine, throwing the switches and inserting what amounts to sharpened telephone poles between the couplers to get cars to separate. When I run a local freight in an op session, I'm doing multiple jobs, not just making the locomotive go. And when I return to the yard, I don't mark off and go home, because, unless we're coming up to the end of the session, there's another job to do, even if it isn't completed by session's end. Now, I'll admit that my "employer" is now paying me 10 times my starting wage for being such a dedicated "employee", but since my starting wage was $0.00, I don't think I'm really ahead of the game.
I realize you were a professional railroader, but the infrastructure that supported you when railroading was your "day" job doesn't exist on a model railroad and you're performing tasks on the model that would have been performed by multiple people when you were getting paid for it. Furthermore, a model railroad is to a real railroad what a stage play is to real life and is subject to time, space, and other resource constraints that don't apply to the real thing. A stage play (or a movie) may cover multiple years in a given story, but the actual action only takes two hours or so. It's like a retired commercial pilot friend of mine told me, it's "hours of boredom occasionally interspersed with seconds of sheer terror". It's the dramatic moments that are "modeled" in a play or movie, not all the intervening boring stuff that actually goes on in real life. Same with a model railroad. CC&WB's allow for some of the paperwork to be simulated without creating a paper nightmare. Now, if you don't need them for your ISL, that's fine, but the OP was asking about a layout that simulated more of the operations of something approaching the functions of a Class 1 rather than switching an industrial park. For the former, you generally need a dispatching system, a method of tracking multiple cars in multiple trains to their destinations and do so in a manner that has just enough paperwork to make the system function without bogging everything down in clerical details.
The layout I operate on is based on the SP between Salinas, CA and Gilroy, CA, and includes a representation of the Monterey Branch. https://southernpacificcoastdivisionmontereybranch.com/ We generally run 12 to 15 trains in a 3 hour session (normally twice a month). 150 cars or more can be funneled through the yard at Watsonville Junction and need to be switched either for local destinations or for outbound through trains. What you do on your ISL just won't work for this intensity of operation. We need a dispatcher and more paperwork than a simple switch list. Generally, there are two people operating Watsonville Yard. We usually have 6-8 people during a session. It's an order of magnitude more complex than a simple switching layout. So's the layout the OP asked about.
Andre
BRAKIE.... each of my cars had ten waybills since that avoided that "Gee,there's that Chessie boxcar going to the team track again syndrome.
If you make waybills based on the spots then you don't have to worry about that many waybills. A certain type car can go to any place that accepts that car.
I don't get that hung up on the same cars going to the same place thing. Not a big deal. Lets say I have a cement dealer on my layout. I see a cement hopper in a train. Three guesses where that car is going to (or coming from)? I have 150 cars on my layout. If you come back next month, guess what, the same 150 cars will be on the same layout. If you operated on my last layout 2 years ago, same 150 cars (more or less).
Plus its not unprototypical. I model the Reading (P&R). Back in the 1980's I noticed that the same RDG boxcar was making about 1 or 2 trips per month to the same customer in Arlington, TX. Since RDG cars were unusual in Texas by then I paid attention to it. Some cars can ping pong back and forth between one or two origins and one or two destinations for years.
It really boils down to what you like. If holding a stack of car cards instead of a sheet of paper bothers you, use lists. If having a switch list in a yard that isn't in order and cars from multiple tracks in it bothers you, use CC&WB. If you don't really care where the cars go and you are on a NASA mission (keeping all your vehicles orbiting with nothing hitting the ground) then don't use either.
dehusmanI don't get that hung up on the same cars going to the same place thing. Not a big deal. Lets say I have a cement dealer on my layout. I see a cement hopper in a train. Three guesses where that car is going to (or coming from)? I have 150 cars on my layout. If you come back next month, guess what, the same 150 cars will be on the same layout. If you operated on my last layout 2 years ago, same 150 cars (more or less).
Dave,That's the thing that bugs me-ugh!,there's that dented railgon again going to Simms Scrap I wish I could say I could deal with that but,nope no can do that's why I rotate my cars like I do with 10 WB each. 1981 will show up tomorrow going to Mid States..Last time about 3 months ago it went to the transload track-I place the used WB in the end of that car's WBs so,it will be year or longer before it shows up at Mid States again.
For all 389 cars I own I would need to write 389 car cards and 3,890 WBs at 10 each so,I selected 60 of my favorite 77/78 cars in order to save my sanity from having to write those WBs.. My head spins from just thinking about it.
My 94/95 era was so much easier since all I use is a switch list that I converted my CC/WB 77/78 operation to switch list. Now I can use any of my 77/78 cars simply by adding their number to the list.
I fully agree it boils down to preference and after 54 or 55 years of CC/WB use I converted to switch lists. I'm happy.
You can visit Slate Creek twice a week and never see the same cars-the exception being SSRy/SCR exCR transfer caboose that used on shoves back to the N&W interchange. That operation may end since the management is thinking about having the conductor use the company pickup truck and drive to the crossings in order to flag the crossings.
andrechapelonWe need a dispatcher and more paperwork than a simple switch list. Generally, there are two people operating Watsonville Yard. We usually have 6-8 people during a session. It's an order of magnitude more complex than a simple switching layout. So's the layout the OP asked about. Andre
Andre,You need to sort through waybills between operation in order to assign some while turning others over between ops-a computerized switch list would be faster and much easier.
BTW.The Army of clerks is gone replace by a few dozen clerks with computers,a yard conductor with a belt pack and computerized switch list can run the engine while making up a 10,000 foot train.It boggles my mind every time I watch that being done at Bellevue or Willard..
We can do the same by using a computerized switch list..A club member could do the "clerk's job" between ops just like working with your WBs.
BRAKIEFor all 389 cars I own I would need to write 389 car cards and 3,890 WBs at 10 each so,I selected 60 of my favorite 77/78 cars in order to save my sanity from having to write those WBs.. My head spins from just thinking about it.
Then don't do it because there is no need to do it. There is zero need to make 10 waybills per car.
You only have a fixed number of spots on the layout that will take a mill gon. If you have 10 spots and make 10 waybills then you can send ANY gon to ANY spot. If you 2 two move waybills for each spot you will have 20 waybills, you can have an empty and a load on your layout for each spot at the same time. Next session you can mix themup and send ANY gon to ANY of the other spots. You get just as much variety with waaaaaaaaaay less paperwork.
If you have 10 different routes off the layout and every spot shipped to each of the 10 different routes then you might make a case for needing 10 waybills. But if you are modeling an industrial park there probably is just one railroad that switches it and there is probably just one way in and one way out, it doesn't matter where teh cars go, if there is one connection into the industrial park and its switched by one local then everything comes from "one" place and everything goes to "one" place outbound.
If you are happy with lists great. Lists work well too. But I don't want to people looking for a method to think that they HAVE to make 10 waybills for each car. They don't. They can make a few waybills for each spot and have different cars to different industries every session (with in the limits of a fixed roster).
At some point things will repeat because if you only have one cement plant then ANY cement hopper on the layout will go to that industry. There are no other options.
Only two places gets gons Spillman's Structure Steel on the transload track and National for production scrap both are occasional.Spillman's usually receives bulkheads once a month.
On the other hand boxcars account for 80%,Covered hoppers and tank cars covers 19% while coil cars,bulkheads and gons 1%.
National Rubber and American Plastics has 4 spots for cover hoppers and tank cars.
Mid States has four spots for boxcars and reefers. This is the grand daddy since food,paper products and other like items arrive by rail from all over the country.
The transload track has 6 spots and usually sees lumber in 50' double door boxcars and 72 foot bulkheads as well as hardware items for D.D Beckenridge Distribution and wine, whiskey and tobacco products for Patton & Son Wholesalers..Again more boxcars.
So,at the minimum 10 inbound WBs for each car to break up the routine-gee there's that B&H boxcar going to Pattons syndrome..
dehusman I don't get that hung up on the same cars going to the same place thing. Not a big deal. Lets say I have a cement dealer on my layout. I see a cement hopper in a train. Three guesses where that car is going to (or coming from)? I have 150 cars on my layout. If you come back next month, guess what, the same 150 cars will be on the same layout. If you operated on my last layout 2 years ago, same 150 cars (more or less). Plus its not unprototypical. I model the Reading (P&R). Back in the 1980's I noticed that the same RDG boxcar was making about 1 or 2 trips per month to the same customer in Arlington, TX. Since RDG cars were unusual in Texas by then I paid attention to it. Some cars can ping pong back and forth between one or two origins and one or two destinations for years.
Alton Junction
Rich,I have enough cars I do not have to see the same cars going to the same places every time.I've always hated that "Gee,there's that fill the blank car again..With my method and rotation a given car may show up once a year and then I will need to look at the switch list to see where its going..That killed that Gee,there's that fill the blank car going to Pattons again.
I have around 300 77/78 era cars to choose from since I dropped the CC/WB system even with 60 cars under the CC/WB system I had a 3-4 month rotation before a given car would show up again. My 94/95 era has 58 cars and I keep adding.
Now,some days 1 car may show up on the interchange for delivery or maybe the only work is pulling empties and taking them to the N&W.
All of my open freight cars has removable loads so,I'm actually pulling a empty bulkhead or gon from the team track or spotting a empty gon at National and pulling a loaded gon..
Personally I could not accept anything less then that type of operation and rotation. It as close to the prototype's day to day operation I can get.. I accomplish my goal.
How many waybills you need is subject to a lot of variation. First lets level set on terminology. When I use the term spot, I am referring to how many cars you will put on the track, not the loading door, ZTS definition. A coal dumper might hold 10 cars which I will call spots, but you really won't have 10 "spots" because it doesn't matter where on the track any individual car goes. I am using "waybill" to mean an instruction to place a car at an industry on the layout, not a specific document. If I have a "4 move" waybill then that is typically two car cyles (load-empty-load-empty or empty-load-empty-load) , which is for purposes of this discussion two "waybills".　
The minimum is one waybill for each spot for each car type. If I have 8 spots for boxcars then the minimum I need is 8 waybills. I can have a car spotted every single place I can use a boxcar.　
Then you have to think about swapping the cars out. If I have a spot that takes a boxcar, if I have one waybill I can spot an empty there for loading. What happens if I want to pull that boxcar after its loaded and replace it immediately with another boxcar? I need another waybill. Waybill 1 is a boxcar empty to industry and a load from industry to Chicago. Waybill 2 is another empty boxcar to the industry (and outbound load to Chicago). As I pull the car with waybill 1, I spot the boxcar with waybill 2.　
Then you have to think about "cycle time". How long does it take to get across your layout in paperwork cycles. I want to spot a car at the industry EVERY time the industry is switched (once per session). If I send a car to that industry then session 1 I bill the car and it moves from staging to the yard. Session 2 its switched and taken to the local yard on a through freight. Session 3 the local takes it to the industry and spots it. It takes 3 sessions to get a car from assigning the waybill to being spotted. Then it takes 2 more sessions to get the load back to the yard and into staging, grand total 5 sessions to go from staging to staging. If I want a car spotted every session I need 5 waybills. On the other hand I have a steel mill and I accumulate empty gons at the steel mill. The empties are applied to a car order for a movement and the car is spotted, the next session the car is pulled and makes an outbound through freight in that same session. Total 2 sessions from applying a car order/waybill to staging. For that move I only need 2 or 3 waybills.　
Lastly is a consideration of routes. I like to think of my layout in terms of a room with only a few doors. A staging yard is at least one door, it might be more if it represent more than one destination. For example if my staging yard represents both Reading and St Clair, PA then its two doors. Every interchange is also a door. Its the places where on a prototype railroad a car could go and never be seen again. There are really only a handful of ways on or off a typical layout. A friend is modeling the ATSF Surf Line from LA to San Diego. He only has 3 "doors", staging yards for Los Angeles and San Bernadino on the N end and the SD&AE on the south end. There are only 3 ways on or off his layout. On my home layout I have 7 doors, staging for St Clair and Reading, 4 PRR interchanges and a B&O interchange. 　
On your layout you might want to be able to route a car to or from any one of the "doors" to your industry. To do that, my friend would need 3 waybills for every spot and I would need 7. But I don't have that many because not every industry connects with every spot. I have a textile mill but I probably won't have any loads of cotton coming from upstate Pennsylvania (St Clair). On the other hand I won't be receiving much anthracite from the B&O in Delaware. So while I have many portals I don't have to use all of them. Similarly many people create multiple waybills to or from places on the other side of the door. St Clair (one of my "doors") is the coal marshalling yard for the anthracite region. There are dozens of mines served out of St Clair. If I wanted to I could create a waybill from every one of those mines to a single coal dealer. But from the standpoint of how the cars are handled on my layout they would all move EXACTLY the same. So I choose not to make that many waybills. Some people do for various reasons, a friend uses it to match road names on cars to an appropriate shipment (if he has a GTW car he will use a waybill coming from the GTW, CN or CP through Michigan).　
Yes you can have multiple waybills for each spot or car, but from a practical standpoint you probably only NEED one or two a spot. I use 2 move waybills (load-empty or empty-load) and I really haven't counted how many waybills per spot I have. I put the waybill info in a spreadsheet so it's real easy to auto fill and duplicate records, then dumped the spreadsheet into a MS Access database and print formatted CC&WB from that. If I want a few more I check off the print field and hit the button and it prints off some more.　
There is a lot of hand wringing about how you have to make all the car cards and waybills and how hard that is. Really? I had a CC&WB system for my 1950 era layout, I converted to the 1900 era and redid all the CC&WB (new industries and new cars), then I found the prototype actually uses something exactly like a CC&WB in my era (car tickets) so I converted to a version of that that reversed the position of the car card and the waybill (the car card fits into a pocket in the waybill) I played with that for a month or two,decided I didn't like that approach and changed it back to something more like conventional CC&WB using the car ticket format. In the last five or six years I have completely replaced my car forwarding paperwork about 3 or 4 times. I spend 3 or 4 nights of quality origami, printing, cutting and folding paper. Not a big deal.
One other thing, because I am using CC&WB I have the freedom to do all these changes and have all these options. With a computer program, you are stuck with whatever limitations the developer has allowed.
Dave,I used CC/WB since Doug Smith's article appeared in MR in 61/62. I've been fine tuning them to fit my style of operation. My last method use a one sided WB the CC simply read when empty return to (say) MP via reverse route or for my crew that means to the SSRy/SCR/ N&W interchange.
For me I find a switch list gives me more freedom on selection of cars and your one or two waybill per spot would never please me in a million years because I've always hated the idea of being limited on shippers since my security officer days(a fill in job between jobs) taught me a industry receives goods from several sources.
A shipper in Billings ships BN because that's their serving road but,how did a UP boxcar come from the same shipper? Should that not shipment be in a BN,NP,SP&S GN boxcar or at least a Railbox or other IPD boxcar?
Little things like that would be the reason behind those former 10 WBs.Those 10 WBs per car offers several different industry spots and loads from various shippers.
Now that BN boxcar could be loaded in Spokane instead of Billings and it may go to any one of my industries that receives boxcars..See the flexibility? Of course cars in captive service like reefers,bulkhead and coil cars is limited. Reefers to Mid States and the coil car and bulkhead to the transload track.Still 10 WBs from various shippers. Since conversion to switch list with numbers only I need not worry about where the load came from..I just place the number under the industry and to ensure once a car is cycled through it will not be accidentally cycled through again.
BTW..For the few(2%) outbound loads SSRy and SCR uses Railbox or Railgon.
BRAKIE Rich,I have enough cars I do not have to see the same cars going to the same places every time.I've always hated that "Gee,there's that fill the blank car again..With my method and rotation a given car may show up once a year and then I will need to look at the switch list to see where its going..That killed that Gee,there's that fill the blank car going to Pattons again. I have around 300 77/78 era cars to choose from since I dropped the CC/WB system even with 60 cars under the CC/WB system I had a 3-4 month rotation before a given car would show up again. My 94/95 era has 58 cars and I keep adding. Now,some days 1 car may show up on the interchange for delivery or maybe the only work is pulling empties and taking them to the N&W. All of my open freight cars has removable loads so,I'm actually pulling a empty bulkhead or gon from the team track or spotting a empty gon at National and pulling a loaded gon.. Personally I could not accept anything less then that type of operation and rotation. It as close to the prototype's day to day operation I can get.. I accomplish my goal.
andrechapelonOn your layout, you're essentially doing the same job over and over again. It's understandable why you might want a wider variety of cars, although I think 300 is a bit extreme.
I agree its to the extreme but,now I am using cars that was stored in totes for years.. Its kinda like having a rash of new cars. I'm enjoying the return on my investment-metal wheels,KD couplers and the search for these cars-some was built from BB and Roundhouse kits while others was bought used.
The "empties" I pulled today from the industries has return to the world beyond my ISL and won't be seen again for months.
I like that.
Sorry I'm late to this post- I'm way behind in my reading these. This is a very interesting topic for me, as I just received the Micro Mark car Card/waybill kit (I've only open the box so far). being relatively naive on operations it seemed this was a nice, basic way to get started. Can anyone offer a video/article/book on the basics of operations and one which lends itself to the Micro Mark system. Thnx all.
TophiasCan anyone offer a video/article/book on the basics of operations
Realistic Model Railroad Operation by Tony Koester, especially the "Quick Start" guide.
There is a fundamental difference in the level of information between a waybill and a list.
A list tells a single crew what they are supposed to do next with the car. A list covers only the next move, to the next location that train goes, which may or may not be the final destination of the car.
A waybill (CC&WB) tells the final destination the car is going, but not any of the intermediate destinations.
If your layout uses only one train to move a car anywhere on the layout to its final destination on your layout, then lists will work great. If your layout uses multiple trains to move a car to its final destinaiton, then something has to "remember" what the final destination is. In that case you can use CC&WB or combine CC&WB with lists (which is essentially what the prototype did.)
To get a car from the Birdsboro Foundry to the B&O at Wilmington, it will be touched by at least 4 trains/crews (the Birsdboro switcher, a through freight, the Wilimington switcher, the job that delivers to the B&O). I find it simpler to just use the CC&WB.
cuyama Tophias Can anyone offer a video/article/book on the basics of operations Realistic Model Railroad Operation by Tony Koester, especially the "Quick Start" guide.
Tophias Can anyone offer a video/article/book on the basics of operations
I had a copy, apparently 1st ed., with a different cover depicting signals and train schedule and subtitled "How to run your trains like the real thing". I also see there's a banner on the 2nd ed. stating "Layout Design and Planning". New copies of the 2nd ed. are less expensive than the alternatives, go figure.
Tophias Sorry I'm late to this post- I'm way behind in my reading these. This is a very interesting topic for me, as I just received the Micro Mark car Card/waybill kit (I've only open the box so far). being relatively naive on operations it seemed this was a nice, basic way to get started. Can anyone offer a video/article/book on the basics of operations and one which lends itself to the Micro Mark system. Thnx all.
In this YT vid, by "marklinofsweden", notice the graphics of the car cards and engine paper clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWpTxCqxPq0
"Tom Conboy"'s vid is a simple example showing an industrial spur drop-off: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTAkNNgXzu4&t=1s
So far, these two seem to be the best produced vids. They're very basic in that all the route and switch planning has already been done to create car card orders (which cars go "from" and "to").
There's a longer vid, that isn't what you're inquiring about, but I find it interesting since it discusses planning the layout for realistic operations and "tweaks" to the car card/waybill to facilitate easy use. It seems to be a recorded powerpoint webinar presentation among a number of participants: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7AwW2sXFFY
Maybe its because I started out from near the begining of my layout with JMRI, but I find it an excellent and very configurable program. As I was very early on in my layout construction when I tried it, I was able to set it up pretty quickly and easily. Snce then it has been very easy to just keep adding cars, locos, spots, routes, and trains, and to make fine adjustments and even major modifications as the layout has grown. I started out as the instructions advise with a the simplest settings, and it easily moved cars around the layout. Then as time when on I started making changes and refining specifics, and now the program knows to fill or empty a specific car at a specific location with a choice of specific loads for specific industries and to send it or hold it based on either the specific day or previous loads. And some spots and cars are not so restrictive, and the program simply supplies a load or empty of the correct type of car. It also knows to not send too many cars where the track canot hold them.
At this point when ready to run I simply fire up the program and I select all or what individual trains I want to run, and then I hit the "build" button and out comes the orders for the day, including times, (although as generally a single operator timetables are not very strict for me). The most interactive part is to hit the checklist to tell the program the cars have moved and when a train has finished, to terminate it. I generally do this right on my cell phone, but sometimes, I wait until I have run the entire route and switchlist and then just click a few buttons on the laptop afterwards. Either way, I think the entire process takes less time than flipping over a trains worth of waybills on a car card.It's probably a case of the "old familiar" for many, and there is nothing wrong with that, but as I was not familair with cc&wb to start with, I found them a bit confusing, and much less realistic in general movement wihtout making many more waybills and adding even more work for just a little more movement. And to be quite honest, as I did try to use it early on, I found writing, folding, printing, organizing, and making holders, and such, and carrying (or dropping!), all those papers, much more time consuming and difficult to setup than JMRI. That said, I am sure setting up JMRI on a huge existing layout would be a daunting task, but I think setting up cc&wb for the first time on a huge existing layout would also be an awful lot of work not to mention, writers cramp.
Summing up I would say JMRI is not to be feared, and people with new, or smaller existing layouts, might just want to try either or both styles to see what they like more. For big, existing layouts I can certainly understand why you may not want to change.
dehusmanTo get a car from the Birdsboro Foundry to the B&O at Wilmington, it will be touched by at least 4 trains/crews (the Birsdboro switcher, a through freight, the Wilimington switcher, the job that delivers to the B&O). I find it simpler to just use the CC&WB.
Dave,Yet as a brakeman I never saw the waybill that's part of the conductor's paper work. I used a switch list to do my work on the PRR and again on the Chessie(C&O).
As I said before I used Doug Smith's CC/WB system for years and thought it was all that and a bag of chips too even though I knew better. I just followed the operating crowd found in the pages of MR..
When I gave up CC/WB and went to switchlist it was like I had new cars like I stated before.
A switchlist should work on any size layout.
But..
To each his own.
dinwittyYou don't need a computer PHD to do it.
While my ISL is no where club size I sure enough don't need a computer to do the work.
A switchlist does not require:
Shipper
Routing
lading.
In some cases photo of car on car card.
Some very intersting reading here & I have justed posted into JMRI forum, this
So I have been playing around - found that I have to add a lot of details re wagons that play no part in my railway but you have to fill in some so you can save it - no options. I thought I had locations etc all sorted OK, built a train and it did not move any wagons. No doubt there is a reason.....
I have managed to get a spreadsheet with 6 lists on an A4 page the same size as my train orders 7 x 10 cm.
Outside of that, the format I would require for my lists means I would have to download the data created for all trains & manipulate it in Excel with so many macros, and then after each Op session, go in & modify the programme in wagons "OK next time move wagon #1234 to specific station & spur & train" and do this for many other wagons - the same as I do now with Waybills.
So to save me much heart ache - I will forget about automated switch lists
Of course I could still use the Switch lists and type into them after each Op session, what is being moved around next Session - it would give me a LOT more work to do just to save the Operators having to handle upto 17 cards cards in a pile...
Ron