Just out of curiosity, have you ever disassembled a locomotive before?
ATSFGuy Just out of curiosity, have you ever disassembled a locomotive before?
fourt I cut off the headlight nub and there was about 1/4" of the bit sticking out, grabbed a channel lock pliers and gave it a tug out, it came out with no problem, why it broke i have no idea now as i figured it had got jammed in the hole. Now just have to drill the rest of the hole through the body. The car dealership wanted 120$ just to look at it. Going to shop around monday hopefully get a better price.
I cut off the headlight nub and there was about 1/4" of the bit sticking out, grabbed a channel lock pliers and gave it a tug out, it came out with no problem, why it broke i have no idea now as i figured it had got jammed in the hole. Now just have to drill the rest of the hole through the body.
The car dealership wanted 120$ just to look at it. Going to shop around monday hopefully get a better price.
one old school trick on drilling pot metal is to wax the bit , by wax i mean the white stuff cheep candles are made of.as far as the car making noise it could be a number of things ps punp going out , water pump and of the more serious side a sucked valve , broken piston ring ect ect.one other thing i just remembered is if your not in a hurry to get bit out is to keep wetting hole with water as steel rusts pot metal don't.
Sugami motor is in my Light Mikado.. Looks very simular to your Heavy Mikado except the old open frame motor...
DCC is great with the Sugami but those open frame motors kill decoders...
All the moving parts need to be cleaned and serviced, then they run well..
Best of luck with the Mantua...
lol doctorwayne that was funney. Been able to get some detail work done on the sides So it is coming along nice. As for the car probelm it turns out the oil was low. Didnt even think to check that till my dad asked if i had checked the oil. Hope to post some pictures of the model soon.
Modeling on the cheap
Here i what it looks like now. Hope to get some more done this weekend.
Fourt,
Looking good so far. Redetailing a steamer is great fun! Can I offer some observations though?
1. you added a check valve on the right side below the steam dome. this boiler already has a top CV just ahead of the sand dome. properly...you need to remove that and the pipes going down both sides of the boiler to the wlakways
2. you added a CC airpump to the left side at the firebox. this engine is equipped (sort of!) with 2 CC air pumps on the pilot deck. most likely they or the new one you mounted would be used but not in both locations.
3.the added sand lines on the left side would probably be matched by duplicates on the right side and not just the one new line.
4. removing the 3 sand lines already coming down from the sand dome and replacing them with the same wire used for the new lines would really help the looks there. filing them off is a PITA but the gain in looks would be a big plus.
5. it looks like you added an elesco steam ejector pump below the new CC airpump. if that's what that is then you might want to use that file again and remove the cast on Worthington SA pump & heater on the boiler. The heater is the rectangular lump just agead of the smoke stack. the Worthington pump is the square lump below the walkway between the left cylinder and first driver. the engine wouldn't have both types installed.
Not trying to be critical but I know you want this engine to be "right" and with all the nice work you're doing I thought it might help you.\
Check your local library or a modeling friend and see if you can get a book called Steam Locomotive Cyclopedia Vol I by Kalmbach. It's commonly found in public libraries and most old head modelers have a copy. It's a great book and has drawings of many of the feedwater and other systems common to steam engines. It may provide a lot of ideas and help in this neat project.
Please keep us advised!
Roger Huber
Deer Creek Locomotive Works
oldline1 1. you added a check valve on the right side below the steam dome. this boiler already has a top CV just ahead of the sand dome. properly...you need to remove that and the pipes going down both sides of the boiler to the wlakways
I think Roger did a great job of suggesting corrections.
Regarding 1. (quoted above): Check valves on steam locomotives are where the water is put into the boiler. For almost forever, they used TWO input "devices". Originally, they used two injectors. Later locos often used one feedwater heater and ONE injector. Still, TWO input devices.
As the model was originally made, the two water lines met at ONE check valve location, up on top of the boiler. This was a twofer. That is, two check valves combined in one.
As the model has been modified, it has an additional check valve on the right side.
If there ever was a loco with "three" check valves, I surely don't recall seeing one.
The problem with Roger's suggestion is that if you remove the top check valve(s) and it's piping, there'll only be one check valve left. That doesn't happen.
There are two options:
Do the removal as Roger suggests and add a left side check valve and piping.
OR.
Remove ONLY the pipe on the right side. This will leave two check valves and piping. I do believe there were single input top mounted check valves.
Well, there's another possibilty: take off the new check valve.
Note, also, comments below about the feedwater heater and how it interacts with check valve placement and piping.
Having THREE cross compound air pumps was EXTREMELY rare. But it happened. On page 224 of Middleton and Priebe's "Steam Locomotives of the Great Northern" (an EXCELLENT book!), there's a shot of the left side of GN 2017, a 2-8-8-0. Three pumps in a row! Uh, wow! And also page 226 (GN 2022) and 227 (GN 2003). If someone has another example, please share. GN also was known to put TWO cross compound pumps on 0-6-0's. Why, you ask? Well, we're talking iron ore service. Where trains can get real heavy. And there's lots of air connections between cars (little short ones, you know). And winter is real cold, as in air leaks get worse. When the above locos were converted from N-2's to N-3's (about 1941), they went over to two compressors on the smokebox front.
That addition looks a lot like an Elesco centrifugal pump to me. If that's what it is, then it should also have the Elesco feedwater heater in the environs of the smokebox. Something like this:
If you DO add the Elesco feedwater heater, note that the piping in the above photo is wrong. That existing check valve and the piping to the rear is wrong. The check valve would be turned 180 degrees and fed by a pipe from the feedwater heater. Or, possibly, it would be relocated to the boiler top.
Note that a feedwater heater is an all-or-nothing thing. It (meaning the entire feedwater system) replaces one of the two injectors.
I strongly support Roger's recommendation about learning how steam locos work. Especially useful in the Kalmbach book is the section about feedwater heaters--very informative drawings.
There's another book on steam locomotives that I found to be pretty fantastic:
https://www.amazon.com/Steam-Locomotive-America-Development-Century/dp/B000M1M2F8/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1481922084&sr=1-1&keywords=steam+locomotive
I also recommend picking up catalogs of parts and the like. Check out, for example, what Bowser is offering in the Cal Scale line. One that is not obvious is Precision Scale Models (you may click to open):
Interestingly, and sadly, this catalog seems much smaller than my old one. Sniff.
Two other things: I recommend highly that you make everything "straight and square". It might take three times to get it perfect. Or more. But it's PERFECT. And it shows.
And, last but not least, I admire your spunk (old time word) in doing this. That and determination will likely reward you (and us, in a way) with a really nice model.
Best wishes,
Ed
7j43k ..... it looks like you added an elesco steam ejector pump below the new CC airpump. if that's what that is then you might want to use that file again and remove the cast on Worthington SA pump & heater on the boiler. The heater is the rectangular lump just agead of the smoke stack. the Worthington pump is the square lump below the walkway between the left cylinder and first driver. the engine wouldn't have both types installed. That addition looks a lot like an Elesco centrifugal pump to me. If that's what it is, then it should also have the Elesco feedwater heater in the environs of the smokebox.
You may be right about that being an Elesco centrifugal pump, but the Worthington S and SA heaters did use a separate centrifugal pump for the cold water. Unless there was a difference in the capacities of the various makes, I'd guess that pump might be okay, although perhaps not a common choice. Here's one of the EG&E's Mohawks, equipped with a Worthington SA feedwater heater and, right below the bottom front corner of the firebox, a centrifugal cold water pump:
Wayne
I think I was wrong in asserting that that centrifugal water pump on the model was only for an Elesco. I misread the drawings. I see that the Worthington S and SA and Coffin all used them. The Elesco sometimes did. And the Worthington BL did not.
I am not expert at telling one feedwater centrifugal pump from another. I even suspect various ones may have been used on the systems.
So I now believe the feedwater system on the left side is pretty close to right, as a Worthington S or SA. I'm referring, in particular, to the placement of the major pieces. The piping should be examined and compared to a typical piping arrangement.
That also means that the best solution for the 3-piped check valves would likely be to keep the current left side pipe arrangement, as that would be the boiler feed from the feedwater heater. And so, on the right side, one of the supplies should be removed.
I hope it is not too late to suggest a modest alteration to the Mantua Mike. The three parallel sand pipes coming from the sand dome are one of the key features that scream "Mantua Mikado" in any photo. Grind those off and replace with new lines that actually go to the drivers can really help the appearance.
Not really OT but I read somewhere that if the Mantua Mike resembles anything specific, it is a Wabash prototype.
Dave Nelson
I'm no expert, but I believe they all needed a piump of some type. Worthington BL's were massive & mounted on the left side. They had a pump integral with the heater, and are not in this discussion.
Worthington SA's and Elescos were usually mounted ahead of the stack. Exceptions were Worthingtons behind the stack on PRR M1a's and K5's, and Elesco bundle heaters ahead of and below the smokebox on many Santa Fe engines. The pump for these was usually mounted on the left side. The Worthington SA pumps were all similar, while there was an early and late version of the Elesco pump. I'm not very familiar with other systems such as Coffin, and cannot address them.
As produced, the Mantua 2-8-2 represents an engine with a Worthington SA system. The rough rectangular shape ahead of the stack represents this, and the rectangular shape just above the left crosshead represents the pump. These are very rough approximations, typical of the time when this model was designed. The piping to the check valve is probably wrong. I would consult something like the MR Cyclopedia for a better idea of that piping. If you are really ambitious, you could file those lumps off and add nice lost wax castings in their place, but there is no rule saying you must.
As mentioned, the engine is represented as having air pumps on the pilot deck. They are not actually represented, but would be behind the shields attached to the front ladders. The ladder/pump/pilot casting was actually "borrowed" from the Mantua 4-6-2, which represents a B&O P-7c or P-7e 4-6-2 (except for the non B&O cab and tender). The engine should not have another air pump added.
The angled sand lines are a nice addition, and are much more in keeping with traditional practice than those vertical cast-on ones.
Tom
P.S. (edit) I am delighted to see you making the stretch to try stuff like this on your own. It's the way most of us old coots learned. You'll get satisfaction out of it, and your next effort will be even better.
Was able to get some work done on the front and the one side. Replaced the one missing sand pipe on rt side that had fell off before i took the pictures. Having a little probelm with the plastic parts staying gluged onto the metal body, i used super glue, is there another glue that might work better to keep them in place?
Not going for a 100 % accurate model, i want to leave body of it, close to organail as possible so going for the classic look that has been updated some with parts etc.
Hi there. I'm not sure what parts you are referring to, but attaching something to metal usually involves drilling a hole in the metal to anchor the part. CA is usually ok from there.
simon
fourt Here i what it looks like now. Hope to get some more done this weekend.
Glad to see you're still working on this and will let the others walk you through the subtleties of steam design.
doctorwayne Wayne
Sort of an L-2 Light. (Wonder what name the NYC would have given THAT!)
fourt Having a little probelm with the plastic parts staying gluged onto the metal body, i used super glue, is there another glue that might work better to keep them in place?
Having a little probelm with the plastic parts staying gluged onto the metal body, i used super glue, is there another glue that might work better to keep them in place?
Glues always work better when the surfaces are clean. Real clean. I'd wipe the metal down with a strong solvent. Alcohol on the plastic might work. Or wash it in dishsoap and do a great job of rinsing. Then no touching.
You might try epoxy. It's usually better to choose the long-set epoxy instead of the 5-minute, at least for joints that take any stress. I've done work similar to yours on the Mantua/Tyco 0-6-0 and 4-6-2. Super glue wasn't generally available back then, so it was epoxy exclusively for plastic/metal bonding.
Epoxy is good at gap and void filling. Roughing the surfaces will also help with epoxy.
I built Belpaire fireboxes on the two above locos with epoxy. Something tough to do with super glue.
And, yes, using a pin connection can be quite helpful. You can even add your own.
My guess is an L-1.75. OTOH, a USRA light 4-8-2 (loco only) weighs in at a shade over 82% of a L-3a. Close enough.
Andre
andrechapelon Sort of an L-2 Light. (Wonder what name the NYC would have given THAT!) My guess is an L-1.75. OTOH, a USRA light 4-8-2 (loco only) weighs in at a shade over 82% of a L-3a. Close enough. Andre
Yes, that is a Bachmann Light USRA Mountain, re-worked somewhat to give it a bit of Central character.NYC was part owner of the TH&B Railway, based in my hometown of Hamilton, Ontario, so I've been a lifelong fan of both. The TH&B actual bought two J-1s from the Central, and were the only Canadian road with Berkshires, two of them, built in Montreal:
My nod to those locos is mostly in the shrouding over the turret piping. It was done with styrene, while most of the other added details (cast pilot, shrouded air pumps on the pilot deck and Worthington feedwater heater) are from Cal-Scale. The air tanks are lead-filled brass tubing, so the loco is a pretty good puller:
A relatively easy way to attach detail parts to a cast metal locomotive is by drilling holes in the boiler, and since cast zinc and Zamac are pretty rough on small drill bits used by most modellers, it's easier to use something a little larger - say a 1/8" or 3/16" bit in a full-size drill. The holes should be perhaps at least 1/4" deep. After you've drilled the holes, use styrene rod (in conjunction with styrene tubing if the hole is especially large) to plug the holes: apply some ca in the hole, then force the plastic plug into place. When the cement has had time to set, file away the excess material protruding from the former hole, then use your modeller's drill bits and pin vise to drill the plug to accept mounting pins on cast brass detail parts or plastic ones, or even brass wire used as piping or mounting pegs.If you're adept at soldering, use brass rod in place of the plastic, which will allow you to solder cast brass details in place.For attaching piping, it's preferable to have both ends of the pipe inserted into holes in the casting.
If you frequent train shows, keep an eye out for MR's Locomotive Cyclopedia. In it you'll find photos and diagrams showing the plumbing for various locomotive appliances, including injectors, feedwater heaters, and air systems, and a list of prototype pipe sizes (outside diameters rather than the inside diameter used when speaking of full-size pipe). Also lots of photos and diagrams of locomotives.
Worthingtons BLs (there were several models) contained integral cold- and hot-water pumps, along with the actual heater, while later model S and SA types used a separate centrifugal pump for the cold water (placed lower than the bottom of the tender, so it would self-prime) and a hot water pump, usually near the check valve to which it was connected. The heater was a squarish box, usually atop the smokebox and ahead of the stack, and much of the piping was hidden inside the smokebox.Elecsco fwhs used a single pump, and there were several different models over the years. The heater bundle varied in size and location. The Coffin system was a closed system, like the Elesco, and the locomotive's exhaust steam, which heated the water, never came in direct contact with the water. The Coffin system also used only a single pump, which was usually a centrifugal type, mounted similar to that on a Worthington-equipped loco.The Worthington system was an open type, where the steam was mixed with the feedwater from the tender.
Here's a John English Pacific, one of my first steam locomotives, acquired "used" in the mid '50s. Like the Tyco/Mantua locos, it's cast metal, as was its original tender. I've added a few brass details, mostly from Cal-Scale, and the vestibule cab, plastic, is from Kemtron (now PSC). The tender was scratchbuilt, roughly 40 years ago, from styrene, with modified trucks from Central Valley:
It's currently awaiting re-building, probably in a similar format.
It's good to see you giving this type of project a try, and you'll learn a lot during even this first build.
7j43k Not sure how to do quotes. I was thinking epoxy also. There is a differnce in fast set vs long set epoxy? What are the differnces?
fourt 7j43k Not sure how to do quotes. I was thinking epoxy also. There is a differnce in fast set vs long set epoxy? What are the differnces?
The only difference I'm aware of is that the long-set is supposed to be "stronger". I got that from reading the packaging. And that's about as much detail as I can give you. I've got both, 'cause "ya never know". I bought mine each in two-bottle sets. It's much more cost effective than getting it in those squeeze tubes or super-dooper syringes. But first-time cost ain't small.
I almost always use the 5-minute because most of what I do is not exactly high strength. For example, the last time I used it was to stick on some additional metal weights inside a car--plenty of surface area and not a lot of "stress". Hey, gravity alone would work most of the time.
BUT.
If I were to do another one of those Belpaire fireboxes, I'd use the long-set. Not so much for strength, but 'cause I wouldn't want it setting up before I was done with the pour and related activities.
There is a toxicity difference between the slow and fast setting epoxies. I remember that from when I built an epoxy/fiberglass sheathed boat. If I recall correctly, which may be difficult considering how many gallons of that stuff I used, the slower/stronger stuff was the more toxic.
They also mixed at different ratios. Many of the consumer grade epoxies mix at 1:1 no matter the strength and speed. I have always wondered if that ratio is achieved with filler in order to make it easier to use.
CG
NICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You got a 1949 Mikado by Mantua. FYI, HoSeeker has a full set of plans.
According to your picture, your tender is correctly insulated. Insulated wheels on the right. Also your pickups on top of the motor appear to be correct as well. Check your lead wire in case it is shorting on something on the engine. Those cloth wires were something else!!! And yes, when I rebuild, I put a new cloth wire on. I lucked out and found a few rolls of this old stuff. I rebuild some old Gilberts once in a while. They got wire up the ying yang!!!
And you are correct about the oil and cleaning spots.
Oh, the tender instuctions your using can be found on the instructions for the Mantua Berkshire, 2-8-4.
Waiting on some decals to finish up this rebuild. I cleaned the tender trucks bosters also, that helped a lot and the other cleaning i did.