Returning to hobby: What Scale?

[Anonymous]

Hi,

So I've been doing a lot of reading on model railroading again after being out of the hobby for nearly 10 years (those HS-college years). I live the apartment life now, so no layout building for me yet, but I'm thinking about what I'd like to do once I have a place of my own. I could also start to make purchases of rolling stock and other bits for that day when I do have a layout.

Problem is, I'm not getting very far because of one big problem: I can't choose a scale. So I'm hoping I can lay out my needs, expectations and current thoughts and get the viewpoints of some of you more experienced modelers.

My dilemma is choosing between O scale and HO scale; I have equipment in both these scales already and I can't deal with the smaller stuff so N and Z are out.

As I see it now, both have their advantages and disadvantages:

HO-
Good:
-By far most common scale, high availibility
-smaller space requirement
-scale-wide standards (especially for control)
-I have more HO equipment currently than O, by a large margin
-less expensive, high quality, scale equipment
Bad:
-2 rail DC wiring is significantly more complex than 3 rail AC
-small size/weight mean HO lacks the "heft" of O
-HO (may) lack the railfan goodies of O (impressive smoke/sounds/effects)

O scale-
Good:
-3 rail AC means easy wiring
-detailed scale O pieces with full lights and sound put on a heck of a show
-can navigate (relatively) smaller radius curves, partially negating space usage issues
-I feel O just looks and feels more impressive than HO
Bad:
-expense; a scale "O" steam locomotive is at least 2-3X the cost of a scale HO steam loco
-lack of standard control system
-space usage is large(r)

To be honest, the electrical side of things is a big issue for me. I hate wiring, am not an electrical engineer, and don't want to become one just to be able to run a couple trains on a layout. Basically I want to minimize the time I spend dealing with wiries. The thought of having to figure out where to, and where not to, put polarity boxes alone is almost enough to make me shy away from HO. 3-rail O is simple in comparison due to the center rail.

On the other hand, the lack of standards for control of 3-rail O may more than make up for the ease of track wiring. With O, I'd have to figure out how to set up a DCS/TMCC hybrid in order to run locos from all manufacturers, or just choose not to buy MTH, in which case TMCC would be fine. In HO, unless I'm mistaken, DCC from any company will run any DCC equipped loco, regardless of who made it.

As far as the operating experience, my interest is not hardcore prototypical operation, and includes simply enjoying watching the trains run. Because of this I want a layout where I can still set up trains to just run continuously for "railfanning" purposes. I'd still like ot model SOME kind of industry though, I was thinking something along the line of a continuous mainline with a few sidings and a small yard. This would connect to a branchline serving a major industry (like a coal mine or oil refinery). This would not be a basement empire, but something smaller, more along the lines of Dave Frary's Pennsy Middle Division that was in MR years ago. I think I could do that in either scale, so that doesn't really help me choose.

For railfanning purposes, I think it's clear that O has HO beat. Seeing an O scale engine working away, chuffing at a prototypically correct rate blowing clouds of synchronized smoke and the sound varying with engine load is an amazing and awesome thing that I've never seen in HO modeling. Maybe I just haven't seen the latest HO has to offer, but what I've seen just doesn't compare at all. I'm not a rivet counter or anything, but I am interested in a scale look and sound.

The downside is that impressive display all comes at a price. A scale-size O steam locomotive with all those goodies can cost upwards of a kilobuck from virtually any of the O scale manufacturers. In contrast, a high-quality, scale HO lcomotive (say from BLI) is about $300 + whatever it costs to add sound and DCC. Rolling stock is similarly priced, with O scale cars runing ~$30 each; I remember buying Athern HO blue-box kits for under $10 each, I can't imagine they're much more than that now. Partially compensating for that though is the fact that I would need less O scale equipment to occupy a similarly sized layout, it being bigger and all.

The final factor is what I already own; most of it being HO. I have at least 3 reasonable quality steam locomtives (Rivarossi, Mantua), and 2 or 3 Athern diesel locos (though none are set up for DCC) already, as well as probably 50 pieces of rolling stock and 2 full passenger train sets in HO from when was growing up. For O, I have some post and pre war Lionel (some of which is very nice, but they're still toy trains), so as far as scale model railroading I'd be starting from scratch.

Sorry that was so long, but I really cannot decide. For almost every point I can give to one scale, there's a compensating factor for the other, or other disadvantage to weigh in. From a space and financial point of view, I'm not going to be able to split the difference and built layouts for both, so I'm going to have to choose before I can really proceed. I know there might be an HO "bias" in here, but I'm hoping for some insights, corrections, or things I haven't considered to help me make the choice.

Thanks,
-PK

[slotracer]

I might be in the same boat as you in a few years for reasons I probably noted before on this forum. One other scale I am considering is S. There are a decent number of plastic diesels available at reasonable prices. Enough cars to get you started, and if you love the detail but hate the price and space issues of O Scale S is worth considering. If you have a hankering for steam you can pick up an occasional brass piece hee and there for a grand or under depending what you are after.
If you are going to do S you have to heave a desire to scratch build and many times adapt compontnets from other scalses to suit your needs (Window castings is an excellent example). S works well if you have a deep desire to recreate a particular era, road and local and hhave a deep drive and desire for that. My wife has an attraction to old architecture, enjoys old trains and appreciates well done scenery, she enjoys the less is more type layout concept. SO.....if w ever go back it will probably be S. My inclination is to have most of my stuff come from my own hands, with almost each and every piece being created by my strong desire for that particular piece. S eliminates the tendency to constantly be purchasing the huge variety of product you have in HO and even N these days. Having less, appreciating it more and having a focus is more where I am heading and that is why I probably will do S if and when I do return.

[mcouvillion]

Senna1,

Based on your existing equipment and your concerns, I would ask this question next: What is your earnings potential in the coming years? Since you are out of college, does the degree field you have chosen promise salaries in 7 - 8 years above something like $60,000, $80,000, or even $100,000? If so, go "O"! If you will be on the lower end of the salary scale, or it may take you longer to get where you could afford to invest significantly in your hobby, go with HO. Many of the guys with the impressive railroads you see have had salaries that allowed them to make the significant investment in their empires. None have been cheap. Some have spent significantly more than others. You seem to have a good foundation in either scale. I, too, have both, but I can't afford the O-scale equipment, and I don't know of anyone else regularly running O in this area (especially scale O). I've collected HO since I was a kid, some years more than others. I'll get my empire built eventually, although it will be modest. I am part of a club where I get to run my stuff now. We even ran the O-gauge stuff for a while!

Best wishes on whichever route you choose.

Mark C.

[IRONROOSTER]

QUOTE: Originally posted by slotracer

... One other scale I am considering is S. There are a decent number of plastic diesels available at reasonable prices. Enough cars to get you started, and if you love the detail but hate the price and space issues of O Scale S is worth considering. If you have a hankering for steam you can pick up an occasional brass piece hee and there for a grand or under depending what you are after.
If you are going to do S you have to heave a desire to scratch build and many times adapt compontnets from other scalses to suit your needs (Window castings is an excellent example). S works well if you have a deep desire to recreate a particular era, road and local and hhave a deep drive and desire for that. ...

Actually S scale is in better shape. There are 4-6-2 steam locos in the $300-400 depending on options and 2-8-0's for $450-600. Diesels are in the $200 range. Many cars and structures are available as well as flex track and turnouts. There are many detail parts available. See this site http://www.trainweb.org/crocon/sscale.html for a good idea of what's available.
While the selection available is not as good as HO or N, still it has become pretty good and there is no need to scratch build anything unless you want to.

I started in HO moved to O and then to S. For me it's big enough to see and build and small enough to have a nice layout in a moderate space.

Enjoy
Paul

[camarokid]

If HO turns you off because it's too much wiring then remember this from one who hates wiring as much as you do. If all you want to do is watch your trains go around and around (like me) you only need two (2) wires that run the length of your layout under the rails. Run feeder wires from the track to the 2 long wires(buss) under the table every 3-6 feet and you'll have more power than you know what to do with. DCC will provide more fun and opportunities for you and is quieter to run. If you stay in DC you can double track your plan and have two trains running all the time in opposite directions. I am slowly turning my layout to DCC by improving the wiring to 12guage for my buss. Boy, do I hate to wire. Whatever scale you choose you will eventually have run wire someplace to enhance your running performance. Good luck, have fun and enjoy everything in building along the way. Archie

[Anonymous]

I know what you are saying about which scale. They all have their advantages and disasdvantages. What will be the estimated size of this layout that you are talking about when you own a home? The available space or lack of space may help you make your decision.

[PennsyHoosier]

Each scale has its pluses and minuses. The big plus for HO--lots of selection at a reasonable price. Further, as pointed out by camarokid, DCC really simplifies HO wiring. Since you're coming in new--more or less--you could purchase locos that are DCC and sound equipped from the get go.

I like O, too. I dabble in it from time to time (esp. at Christmas with the tree train). But it's just too darn expensive for me.

[ericsp]

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=25675

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Senna1
Problem is, I'm not getting very far because of one big problem: I can't choose a scale.
My dilemma is choosing between O scale and HO scale;
....
For O, I have some post and pre war Lionel (some of which is very nice, but they're still toy trains), so as far as scale model railroading I'd be starting from scratch.

You have me confused. You are still considering using O-gauge three rail track, with the locomotives that are totally out of scale to go around smaller than HO curves (toy trains), but then you turn around and talk scale model railroading in O. [?][?][?] It is almost like you're really considering three different things. O-gauge, O-scale, or HO scale.

It, from your own writing, seems that the wiring issue has the most weight. If so, this is not an issue anymore. The most complicated two wire situation (reversing loops) is now easily dealt with using DCC. two wires power pack to track. two wires from and to a little control box for each reversing loop and your done. You can use DCC on HO or O-scale.

QUOTE:
A scale-size O steam locomotive with all those goodies can cost upwards of a kilobuck from virtually any of the O scale manufacturers. In contrast, a high-quality, scale HO lcomotive (say from BLI) is about $300 + whatever it costs to add sound and DCC.

BLI come with sound and DCC pre-installed.

It might help if you sit down and write a list of what you really want the trains to do. Once you get the list put it in order of importance and assign a weight to each item. Then rate each scale/gauge in the categories. Finally do a weighted average and let the numbers pick for you.

For example if you want to sit back and watch a train roll through scenery (I think you called it railfan) HO is probably a better bet. If you like turning on and off all the lights, bells, whistles, operating log cars, etc. you might be better of with O-gauge. However recently I met a person who had to have a sheet with his HO loco to remember all the functions. Headlite #1, Mars light, Headlight #2, strobe light on roof, ditch lights, marker lamps, number board lamps, etc.....

[Anonymous]

I would go with o gauge, once you have had the experiance of smoke and sounds I personally would never be satisfied knowing what I was missing.

[Anonymous]

Thank you to all that have replied, it's helped me look into some things.

First; although S scale would seem to be a good compromise size-wise, I just don't think I would be happy with the (relative) scarcity of products in this scale.

QUOTE: Based on your existing equipment and your concerns, I would ask this question next: What is your earnings potential in the coming years? Since you are out of college, does the degree field you have chosen promise salaries in 7 - 8 years above something like $60,000, $80,000, or even $100,000? If so, go "O"!

I'm actually in grad school now, but in 7-8 years my field (biological research) will allow me to have a pretty generous salary. Nonetheless, school loans, a house, likely a new young family, and other hobbies compound to the point that "O" still seems very expensive.

After reading a bit about DCC, I was plesantly surprised at how much this seems to have simplified HO wiring. When I was last in this hobby, command control seemed to be something that only computer/electrical engineers dared attempt. Now it seems wiring standard cab controls would be significantly harder than just going with DCC from the outset. This makes HO a lot more appealing again, as long as it isn't too difficult to convert my old locomotives over.

QUOTE: What will be the estimated size of this layout that you are talking about when you own a home? The available space or lack of space may help you make your decision.

This is another of my problems. Since I know little about the potential home I predict that I'll be buying in 5-6 years, it's hard to say how much room I'll have. I can envision having anything from a bedroom (about 12x15 feet) to most of a basement, at double the dimensions & 4x the square footage. Obviously a whole basement makes O a lot more feasible, but there's plenty of ways to fill a basement with HO too, as well as ways to build smaller O layouts.

QUOTE: You have me confused. You are still considering using O-gauge three rail track, with the locomotives that are totally out of scale to go around smaller than HO curves (toy trains), but then you turn around and talk scale model railroading in O. It is almost like you're really considering three different things. O-gauge, O-scale, or HO scale.

Sorry for the confusion; if I were to build a O gauge layout, yes it would be 3-rail, but I would operate scale-size equipment on it (which seems to be more and more popular in 3-rail these days).. This would still allow me to run my postwar (non-scale) trains on the layout whenever I wanted. Even scale-sized O equipment will run on relatively tight curves (O54) if it has to, though obviously bigger curves look better.

I guess the bottom line is that this is just something I'll have to make a choice about, dive in, and hope I'm happy with.

[Anonymous]

I like HO scale because you can have so much more on a layout than with O. Wiring the track is easy if you go with DCC, two wires and you're connected, but if you have a long distance of track you'll probably need a 2 wire bus line all the way around, with a pickup to each rail about every 20 feet. No experience with O scale, but as you said HO is more widely available, and comes in excellent detail, you can even get prototype sounds for most locomotives.

Good Luck
Greg

[Anonymous]

Ahhh,,

too many scales, too little time and $ !!!

i know all about it. have N, HO, and O-gauge,
more O than anything. My layout for it is an 18
foot mainline in the basement. That being said,
i felt O would be a little less finicky in a sometimes
dampish environment, not that it floods, but track
does draw some moisture here in good 'ol humid
Iowa. That perhaps is something to consider if
you purchase an older home and plan on a
basement layout. i do run a dehumidifier, which
i'm sure helps. i just don't think N - Scale, or HO
for that matter would be as reliable, although either
would be impressive considering my space available.
it's tough when you love it all !!!
good luck with your choice and welcome to the forum!

driver8

[Anonymous]

Do you know that some O gauge track is 2 rails, but the problem is you can't use a 3 rail locomotive on 2 rail track or a 2 rail loco on 3 rail track,

BUT

MTH is placing a new feature in their new models allowing you to switch a locomotive from 3 rail to 2 rail and back to 3 rail by just flipping a switch.

Also
O gauge-Plus
O-27 may solve your problem.

[tutaenui]

Ho or O?
choices, choices
Why not compromise and go On30

[on30francisco]

Why don't you try On30? On30 is O scale narrow gauge equipment that runs on HO track. On30 offers the best of both worlds - the heft and detail of O scale and the convenience, price and space requirements of HO.

[cnw1995]

Come over to the 'dark side' - check out the Classic Toy Trains forum too.