It is becoming frustrating the occurence of derailments, mainly in my turnouts. I thought I had weeded out the poorer manfactured ones, using only Walthers or Accurails now, replacing couplers, making sure heights are uniform and working properly. And still, if I back a car through a turnout into the frog, (all code 83 Atlas) I may get a derail. Then I may not. All track is code 83, ballasted. I'm using Caboose Industry's manual throws. Is this a common occurence?
When you checked the coupler height, did you also check the height of the trip pin? If the pin is low, it can snag on parts of the turnout.
Using a Kadee gauge, there is a small flat area below the coupler on the gauge. The trip pin should clear this flat area.
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
You need to provide more information. Do the same cars de-rail thru all turnouts or just a few? Always the same turnouts? What couplers are you using? You need to eliminate problem areas I would start by checking the coupler height and trip pin height. Could be you have a few low trip pins that snag on the turnouts. Next is to check your wheelsets for correct gauge. Do the trucks pivot freely? There are many causes for derailments. Occasionally I operate on a neighbor's layout. I can back a 60+ car train thru the whole layout without a derailment.
Depends on what you mean by "common." A great deal of your success at eliminating derailments can depend on your skill at tuning track and troubleshooting cars. Derailments are common among modelers who haven't mastered the tuning process.
Sojourner67...using only Walthers or Accurails now...
I'm assuming you mean brands of cars. Newer Walthers cars with machined metal wheels tend to perform well (older ones may benefit from better wheelsets). Accurail cars should also (mostly) be trouble free, but not always with the stock wheels. Accurail's one-piece plastic wheelsets don't necessarily work very well. All of my Accurail cars use metal wheelsets. Intermountain and ExactRail wheelsets are of very high quality and work great in Accurail and Walthers trucks.
Cars need to be tuned to allow for proper truck motion. Both trucks should rotate freely, and (contrary to some old school advice that still is repeated everywhere) it's helpful for both of them to at least allow SOME side-to-side rocking. Many cars out there will derail if one of the trucks is too tight for it to rock at least a little. The old advice about allowing one truck only to rotate worked much better with sprung trucks. One-piece rigid plastic trucks often need to rock for them to track well.
If any of your Accurail cars still have the plastic truck mounting pins, consider replacing those with screws. It's a lot easier to adjust the trucks with screws.
The brand of car isn't necessarily a huge deal. Just about any car with trucks, wheelsets, and couplers that are tuned correctly should be fine. Once you get used to it, you should have good luck with other brands besides those you currently use. Standardizing on good wheelsets helps.
all [turnouts are] code 83 Atlas
Some hobbyists consider Atlas 83 to be of low quality, but I'm not among them. A tuned Atlas 83 turnout should perform flawlessly. Check the following:
In addition, check all your rail joints, especially around turnouts. Eliminate any kinks, either sideways or vertical, and any other mislaignment. All joints should flow seamlessly and be completely smooth. Get your eyes down to track level all over and sight down the rails. Ideally, all of this should have been handled prior to ballasting, as fixing issues like these gets a lot tougher after ballast is glued down. Track should be 100% bulletproof before we even think about ballasting.
Good luck. You can do this.
Rob Spangler
Sojourner67Is this a common occurence?
If Your track work is not up to par it is.
Sojourner67All track is code 83, ballasted
Do You have Your ballast past the spikes and some stuck to the sides of the rail on the inside? Wheel flanges could be hitting those and lifting the wheel. How did everything roll, before ballasting?
Many variables....kinks in track joints before turnout....etc., etc.
Good Luck! More info would help in giving You help.....
Take Care!
Frank
Sojourner67 It is becoming frustrating the occurence of derailments, mainly in my turnouts. I thought I had weeded out the poorer manfactured ones, using only Walthers or Accurails now, replacing couplers, making sure heights are uniform and working properly. And still, if I back a car through a turnout into the frog, (all code 83 Atlas) I may get a derail. Then I may not. All track is code 83, ballasted. I'm using Caboose Industry's manual throws. Is this a common occurence?
Allow me to ask the basics that can cause derailments.
1. Trip pin at correct height checked against the KD coupler gauge?
2. Is the cars wheels in gauge? Checked against the NMRA Gauge
3. Is the points of the switch smooth? Are the points completely closing?
4. Speed..High speed in reverse through a switch can cause derailments.
5. Sloppy track work-even the best of us makes mistakes.. Any thing laying under the switch points? Is the rail completely in the rail joiners? Even one rail not completely seated in the joiner can cause derailments.
6. Truck to tight? Tighten both truck's screw completely down and back the screw off 2 1/2 turns- a old school lesson that still provides derailment free operation. No need for the cars to wave hello every time they enter a switch.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
These other fellers have seen, experienced, and done it all, and so have I. You are not alone, friend. It's a rite of passage. We all have to learn how to detect problems, find out exactly what their nature is, and then figure out how to rectify them without having to destroy our track system in the process.
The others have listed the most obvious or frequent problems. I have found that a turnout that is twisted, or that is mounded near the frog, or that sags near the frog, can cause derailments. Often it is the approach to the frog that causes the derailment, but AT the frog is where the axle gets displaced. This is true for longer framed locomotives.
I don't know what you have done to date to try to stem this problem. What I do is get a good strong light behind the item and the location of the problem, and I get good light behind my head shining on the location. I often use an Opti-Visor and get close. Then, with throttle in hand, I slowly run the offending item back and forth, pulling and shoving, and look for that first sign that it is going to go bad. Sometimes all it takes is a few more grains of ballast below the ties there to lift that rail. This happens on superelevated curves where the superelevation isn't consistent throughout the curve's apex.
Good luck. Do what yuh gotta do.
So if I read the OP correctly, the derailments are mainly at turnouts - which suggests some take place elsewhere. Also it when backing the cars, he says. He does not mention whether the car is coupled to the locomotive during the problem, or if it happens regardless of where the car is in the train. What the car is coupled to can sometimes be the culprit. And it is interesting that it is cars that derail, not locomotives, again if I read him correctly.
I assume the cars are free rolling, correctly weighted to standards, and there are not details such as "correct" airbrake piping that have been added that might be catching at the trucks, or airbrake hoses that have been added that might be catching at similar hoses on the next car.
The possible problems have been pretty well outlined above by the other posters. (I'd just add that sometimes the turnout is blameless; a friend had constant derailments at a particular turnout but on closer examination he had made an error cutting the flex track leading to that turnout and created a kink, even though the rail ends met just fine. This is very easy to do particularly if you cannot get your head into position to "squint" down the track and see such kinks).
A few trouble-shooting things I do:
If I add a weight to the car temporarily (some guys use bean bags) does it still derail? If not, that does not necessarily mean the car is underweighted (it might of course - or that the weight is skewed or un-centered). Rather it may have to do more with the tracking of the wheel/truck combination.
If I press the car down with my finger (not too much) and run it repeatedly through the turnout, do I feel anything? Grains of ballast that interfere with the flanges can be felt that way. So can issues with the guardrails. You often can also feel wheel wobble even if you cannot easily see it. You will of course feel the impact of the wheels going through the frog but that is normal.
If I push the car by itself and let it roll through the turnout does it derail? If it does not, that suggests to me that perhaps something about the coupler swing should be checked. Then try rolling it through coupled to other cars, varying between cars of the same length and cars of different lengths. The interaction of coupler issues transmitted into the draft gear, frame and hence the trucks and wheels is always a possibility.
Swapping out wheelsets, even if just temporarily, can be illuminating in making problems suddenly go away. If the problem is still there it at least probably eliminates a possible cause from the list. Ditto for swapping out entire trucks.
My hunch, given that it is mostly cars being backed up, that it is either the couplers or something with the way the trucks are mounted that is the likely cause.
Dave Nelson
Hello all,
What scale are you running...
Z, N, HO, HOn3, O, On30, G?
A few thoughts:
You should not only check proper coupler height and trip pin clearance but also coupler swing; side to side movement.
On my pike I am forced to run 15-inch radius curves and #2 turnouts in some sections. If the couplers do not have enough lateral (side to side) travel, derailments will occur. The couplers are leveraging the trucks off the track because they have reached the lateral limits of their travel.
The solution to limited coupler swing can be to:
Yes, track work can be a problem. If you are sure that your track work is sufficient then I suggest looking at some of the possible problem areas I have outlined.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
dknelsonassume the cars are free rolling, correctly weighted to standards, and there are not details such as "correct" airbrake piping that have been added that might be catching at the trucks, or airbrake hoses that have been added that might be catching at similar hoses on the next car.
All good points and those can cause issues.
Switches often have gaps in the rails due to electrical concerns. A tremendous number of derailments in and out of switches can be caused in shifting gap alignment. When first constructed, and tests are run on these, they are critically aligned and work great. Over time, due to a number of reasons, expansion, contraction and up, down,left and right shifting can take place. Pay close attention to rail gaps around switches.
I recently had to fight two such instances on my Code 70 switches. They worked great last year, but this spring caused issues derailing locos moving in only one direction through the switches, but not in the other direction.
One switch gap had a rail that had risen almost imperceptively and slightly inside as well. The other had a rather significant displacement to the outside. All is now well with about 30 minutes of work on each. HOn3 flanges are scale and not deep as on some HO models. As such, the trackwork is a bit more critical.
Richard
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed
Backing cars, period, can be a problem, especially around curves and through turnouts. The most likely culprit is faulty track work. Another culprit is the couplers and the trip pins. On passenger cars, the diaphragms can be the culprit. The turnouts can also be suspect, especially the point rails and the height of the frogs.
The problem can be fixed but, first, you need to identify the cause of the problem. Get down at eye level and back up the train slowly and watch where the derailment starts to occur.
Rich
Alton Junction
Rob gave all the answers that I would have given especially the use of metal wheelsets and the tightness of the trucks.
One thing I have had a problem with and I found a little harder to detect is vertical variation in the rails. These can cause wheels to ride up or down and begin a derailment. In fact I had one spot that literally a wide vaiety of cars and engines ran through with no problem. When I was test running a new engine it found a slight dip in the rail and would derail there everytime. I shimmed it and it has been great since.
Another thing that I try to do is to make the first inch or so out of the divergent route of my turnouts aligned with the divergent rails before beginning any curve.
Mark
Sometimes it can be something odd. I recently had a car start to derail every time it was going through a switch, but only when it was the first car in the train. Drove me nuts.
Turns out that the air hose ( trip pin ) on the car was catching on the air hoses and other items mounted on the front of the engine. I found this by accident. I was using a bright LED flash light to watch the cars trucks as it went through the switch very slowly. I saw the trip pin catch on the engine. Fix? Trim a small amount off the end of the trip pin.
Maybe I should install couplers with longer shanks on the engine.
Also check that the coupler mount box has not turned. This can easily happen when backing up.
richhotrainBacking cars, period, can be a problem, especially around curves and through turnouts. The most likely culprit is faulty track work. Another culprit is the couplers and the trip pins. On passenger cars, the diaphragms can be the culprit. The turnouts can also be suspect, especially the point rails and the height of the frogs.
There should be zero problems while making a reverse move through a switch or around a curve to accept anything less is foolish and akin to that oft told lie "derailments is part of running our trains".
Every problem area you mention can and must be fixed if one wishes to obtain 100% trouble free operation and that goal is easily reach..
Why would anybody accept anything less?
Yes,Rich,I'm a stickler for 100% derailment free operation and as I often mention anything less is unacceptable.
ROAR...
Sometimes the wheel is off the rail BEFORE it gets to the turnout. The turnout simply dumps it offf of the tracks so that the problem becomes obvious. Stop the train BEFORE it gets to the turnout, and check all of its wheels. Are they all on the tracks going into the switch? A problem elsewhere can set up a fail at the switch.
ROAR
(LION!)
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
BRAKIE richhotrain Backing cars, period, can be a problem, especially around curves and through turnouts. The most likely culprit is faulty track work. Another culprit is the couplers and the trip pins. On passenger cars, the diaphragms can be the culprit. The turnouts can also be suspect, especially the point rails and the height of the frogs. There should be zero problems while making a reverse move through a switch or around a curve to accept anything less is foolish and akin to that oft told lie "derailments is part of running our trains". Every problem area you mention can and must be fixed if one wishes to obtain 100% trouble free operation and that goal is easily reach.. Why would anybody accept anything less? Yes,Rich,I'm a stickler for 100% derailment free operation and as I often mention anything less is unacceptable.
richhotrain Backing cars, period, can be a problem, especially around curves and through turnouts. The most likely culprit is faulty track work. Another culprit is the couplers and the trip pins. On passenger cars, the diaphragms can be the culprit. The turnouts can also be suspect, especially the point rails and the height of the frogs.
Backing cars through turnouts can be a problem, and often is due to faulty track work, coupler set ups, diaphragms on passenger cars, and the turnout itself, particularly the point rails and elevated frogs. These problems should be corrected to eliminate derailments on back up movements.
While backup derailments through turnouts are common on new layouts and with newer modelers, backup derailments through turnouts need not be inevitable. Using best practices, backup derailments through turnouts never need to occur.
Rich,I am agreeing with you but,saying to obtain 100% derailment free operation those trouble spots you mention needs fixed.
At the operation inclined clubs I been a member of over the years I have probably switched thousands of cars with no problems only because all freight cars and passenger cars was up to basic standards(wheels in gauge,coupler and trip pin at the correct height) and if a member's cars could not meet those basic standards they was not allowed to place the cars on the layout until fixed. At one club we operated for months with zero derailments.
Even at the club I'm currently a member of I can run my trains for hours during a open house or the week of the county fair with zero derailments.
Well that's a lot of explanations and suggestions. Since this is my first attempt at MR in many many years, I'll chalk it up to a learning curve. Lately I'm leaning towards ripping it up and starting over.
Sometimes the track arrangement may be the culprit, especially when backing. S-curves caused by combinations of curves with turnouts (or turnouts with other turnouts) can lead to derailments. Atlas Snap-Switches are often a challenge in backing because of the sharp diverging path through the frog.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
You might try the free program at scarm.info. It allows you to choose different track manufacturers, unlike the Atlas free program. The associated videos make it easy to learn the basics of the program; Ulrich is way ahead of me on using the 3D and scenery views.
A common newbie mistake is to put too much track in the space you are working with.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
cuyama Sometimes the track arrangement may be the culprit, especially when backing. S-curves caused by combinations of curves with turnouts (or turnouts with other turnouts) can lead to derailments. Atlas Snap-Switches are often a challenge in backing because of the sharp diverging path through the frog.
One of the worst crossovers you can make is using 2 snap switches.. While I've used them on small 6' ISLs with 40' cars I would never recommend it due to the terrible and sharp "S" curve.
Atlas #4s and Peco Medium switches can easily be used as a crossover since there is a small straight on the diverging route of those switches which breaks up the "S" curve.
"S" curves are not to be feared as long as they are properly built..In fact a sweeping "S" curve is a thing of beauty.
I think that if some of your cars have truck mounted couplers, you are much more likely to have derailments when backing up - especially when backing through a turnout. I started out very much like you have, and purchased several cars on Ebay that had snap-in trucks with truck mounted couplers. Now that all of my rolling stock is converted to body mounted couplers, and all my wheelsets that had any kind of drag or wobble have been replaed with Intermountain metal wheels, my trains run virtually derailment free. Now I only buy cars that have screw mounted trucks and body mount couplers, and I always assemble them with Kadee #5's instead of the plastic couplers that come with most cars.
Sojourner67 Well that's a lot of explanations and suggestions. Since this is my first attempt at MR in many many years, I'll chalk it up to a learning curve. Lately I'm leaning towards ripping it up and starting over.
LION knows all about that!
Him builded the present layout of him with no helixes, worked fine with locomotives pulling several passenger cars, and so I thought I was OK.
LION then switched to subway trains, and they could not make the grades. LION opend up the track and builded a helix over here and a pair of nolix over there. The nolixes gave the LION several more stations.
LATER the LION changed some of his operating plans, pulling out the staging yards, replacing them with a four track mane lion. This required the LION to pull out the two track helix of him, and replace it with a four track helix.
So yes, it is perfectly fine to make the changes that you knead.
rrebellHow did you attach your track first, nails can cause problems.
Whale, that may be sew, but... While starting out (again) nails are the far better choice. You can lift and reuse track without problem or damage. Once every thing is perfect you can think about balast and glue. Ballast is an issue since it can delrail trains all by itself.
If you used nails to hold down your track, check to see how far they went in. If they went in far enough to bow the ties down in the middle, the track gauge might be too narrow. This applies to switches too.