Mantua 4-6-2

[Anonymous]

I have never repowered any locomotive, so decided before buying any brass that I'd work on a Mantua 4-6-2 (Union Pacific) I have. I'm going to repower, regear, and detail it.

As far as repowering, I'm leaning toward the NWSL #162-4, which is the Athearn repower kit. I'm leaning this direction because the flywheel is already attached at the factory. I also found one website dedicated to repowering & regearing, which is very helpful (http://hometown.aol.com/kenrclark/guide_to_repowering_and_regearing.htm),

For detailing, I've found a couple of websites (one is http://www.steamlocomotive.com/pacific/), but the download for one of them has disappeared from the site and I eliminated it from my bookmarks. I have also found some photos in books, but none show much detail or have much clarity.

I suppose I will need to call or e-mail NWSL for their thoughts, but thought I'd ask here first. Any insights from your experience, either with repowering/regearing or on detailing, is much appreciated.

Dan

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dan110355

I have never repowered any locomotive, so decided before buying any brass that I'd work on a Mantua 4-6-2 (Union Pacific) I have. I'm going to repower, regear, and detail it.

As far as repowering, I'm leaning toward the NWSL #162-4, which is the Athearn repower kit. I'm leaning this direction because the flywheel is already attached at the factory. I also found one website dedicated to repowering & regearing, which is very helpful (http://hometown.aol.com/kenrclark/guide_to_repowering_and_regearing.htm),

For detailing, I've found a couple of websites (one is http://www.steamlocomotive.com/pacific/), but the download for one of them has disappeared from the site and I eliminated it from my bookmarks. I have also found some photos in books, but none show much detail or have much clarity.

I suppose I will need to call or e-mail NWSL for their thoughts, but thought I'd ask here first. Any insights from your experience, either with repowering/regearing or on detailing, is much appreciated.

Dan

Have you considered the Alliance Locomotive Products repower kit (#162 for the 4-6-2). It also comes with a flywheel http://www.alliancelink.com/alp/photos.htm. Look about 1/2 way down the page. I don't have any experience with it, but it does look like a drop-in replacement not requiring gear replacement.

Andre

[orsonroy]

The Alliance Helix Humper remotor "kits" are the way to go for remotoring Mantua and Bowser engines. They're a drop-in, no muss, no fuss can motor/idler gear/frame all in one neat package. Adding the motors takes about ten minutes, and you don't have to worry about pulling gears or requartering anything. And the engine's overall performance is improved 2000%. I love 'em, and won't run one of the old beasties without 'em.

As for superdetailing the engine, what end result are you looking for? The engine is closest to the B&O's Presidential Pacifics, photos of which are all over the place. If you're trying to come close to another road's Pacifics, just start digging around online. There are Thousands of RR-related websites out there, and dozens of good ones. I'd suggest starting with two of the largest and best:
www.rr-fallenflags.com
www.railfan.net

If you want to freelance detail the engine, just pick up a copy of Kalmbach's Steam Locomotove Cycolpedia. It'll have more than enough information on steam locos and their appliances to keep you busy. And invest in the Bowser and Precision Scale catalogs. Between these two manufacturers, you'll have 90% of the superdetailing parts currently available at your fingertips (neither company has their full catalog online).

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by orsonroy

The Alliance Helix Humper remotor "kits" are the way to go for remotoring Mantua and Bowser engines. They're a drop-in, no muss, no fuss can motor/idler gear/frame all in one neat package. Adding the motors takes about ten minutes, and you don't have to worry about pulling gears or requartering anything. And the engine's overall performance is improved 2000%. I love 'em, and won't run one of the old beasties without 'em.

As for superdetailing the engine, what end result are you looking for? The engine is closest to the B&O's Presidential Pacifics, photos of which are all over the place. If you're trying to come close to another road's Pacifics, just start digging around online. There are Thousands of RR-related websites out there, and dozens of good ones. I'd suggest starting with two of the largest and best:
www.rr-fallenflags.com
www.railfan.net

If you want to freelance detail the engine, just pick up a copy of Kalmbach's Steam Locomotove Cycolpedia. It'll have more than enough information on steam locos and their appliances to keep you busy. And invest in the Bowser and Precision Scale catalogs. Between these two manufacturers, you'll have 90% of the superdetailing parts currently available at your fingertips (neither company has their full catalog online).

As orsonroy says, the Mantua Pacific is closest to the B&O Presidential (i.e P-7) Pacifics. I sometimes think there are as many P-7 variants as there were P-7's built. I know that's not true, but it seems like it sometimes from the pictures.

The overall boiler proportions are also very close to the USRA Heavy Pacific and you could probably make a nice Erie K-5a out of one. Chicago & Eastern Illinois also rostered some USRA Heavy copies. I've also seen a model of a modernized Santa Fe 3400 class 4-6-2 made out of a Mantua 4-6-2. With a change in drivers (i.e. to 72" from 80") you could make a credible Southern Ps-4. With the same driver change, plus new SP style sand dome and modified steam dome along with an MDC SP style cab, you could make an SP P-8 or P-10. Add the Bachmann 160C-1 SP tender and you'd have an SP (T&NO) P-9.

And if you really wanted to go whole hog, you could probably bash up a credible C&O F-17/18/ or 19 4-6-2 using the Bachmann long Vanderbilt tender.

I even think you could make a New Haven I-4 out of the thing.

Not to mention Atlanta & Westpoint #290.

The thing's versatile. Let your imagination roam freely.

Andre[:)]

[dknelson]

At one time in the mid 1960s Mantua used to run ads showing the conversions that people had done with their locomotives.
By the way while the traditional Mantua zinc alloy 4-6-2 was a B&O prototype (regardless of how it is painted, be it Union Pacific or Santa Fe or Pennsylvania -- it is still a B&O prototype engine), Mantua also introduced other versions later, including a camelback Pacific if memory serves. They also had one that used the Mikado boiler and labled it C&NW. Not to mention the old old old Reading engine back before the 1951 era cast boiler. I assume our friend Dan has the usual B&O engine painted for Union Pacific.
Dave Nelson

[Anonymous]

Thanks, all. My Mantua is a UP Pacific & I model UP, so I'm going to stay with UP. I did see the fallen flags website & got 3 good photos of a UP Pacific.

I'll try the Alliance kit.

Thanks again. I move real slow, so when I finish in a few months, I'll report back.

[Anonymous]

I repowered with the accurate lighting motor which was a dropi-in replacement with a flywheel and it runs great. The replacement motor ran about $43.00 and i also ordered an Athearn Hustler motor replacement at the same time. I just acquired 4-6-4 Mantua and may try the Alliance replacement. I use DCC so any replacement has to be DCC "friendly" for my installation.

[Anonymous]

Hello all,
In relation to the Mantua 4-6-2, does anybody have any schematics for this engine? Was it a kit or did it come assembled or both? I have one in a box of old train things that my dad had and as I recall when I played with it as a lad, it had some trouble. I may re-motor it, but the drivers and all of the hardware on the wheels don't work correctly. The small, front metal piece constantly pulls out of its position and allows the rest of it to flop around. Can anybody provide me with the necessary information to get it all positioned correctly?

I also remember that the wiring was AJU (All Jacked UP) by somebody...most likely me. So any photos or schematics of what it SHOULD look like would be incredibly helpful. Thanks for any and all input.

Darrin

[Anonymous]

I think model railroader once had an article on superdetailing the mantua/tyco 4-6-2 into a B&O P7 several years ago. You might want to try the magazine index link at the top of the forum site. Don't know how many of the parts are still available, but it would provide a good start.

[orsonroy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BigDarrin

Hello all,
In relation to the Mantua 4-6-2, does anybody have any schematics for this engine? Was it a kit or did it come assembled or both? I have one in a box of old train things that my dad had and as I recall when I played with it as a lad, it had some trouble. I may re-motor it, but the drivers and all of the hardware on the wheels don't work correctly. The small, front metal piece constantly pulls out of its position and allows the rest of it to flop around. Can anybody provide me with the necessary information to get it all positioned correctly?

I also remember that the wiring was AJU (All Jacked UP) by somebody...most likely me. So any photos or schematics of what it SHOULD look like would be incredibly helpful. Thanks for any and all input.

Darrin

Darrin,

The Mantua line came as both kits and RTR. Your dad's engine sounds like a beat-up basket case. The engines aren't hard to build (schematic? not really, considering there's only one wire in the whole engine!) and pretty easy to fix, so long as you have a basic understanding of how steam engines work. I'd recomment buying a RTR Pacific off of Ebay as a blueprint. Model Power now owns the Mantua line, and is slowly releasing them as RTR engines. Once you know what you need (based on the one runner off Ebay), I'd contact them and see if they've got the Mantua parts inventory organized.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the input.

Now, if only I can find one on Ebay.
Pardon me if this is somewhat of an ignorant question but there is one thing that I wondered about with that one wire. I haven't had the thing apart in quite some time, but I seem to remember that there is a wire to the light and then one back to the tender. It seems that it screwed into the belly of the tender which had metal pick up wheels on one side. My question is, how did the connection from the other rail get to the motor on the Loco. I don't remember any sort of brush contact with the drive wheels or anything. What is it that I am missing?

Thanks again,
Darrin

[orsonroy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BigDarrin

Thanks for the input.

Now, if only I can find one on Ebay.
Pardon me if this is somewhat of an ignorant question but there is one thing that I wondered about with that one wire. I haven't had the thing apart in quite some time, but I seem to remember that there is a wire to the light and then one back to the tender. It seems that it screwed into the belly of the tender which had metal pick up wheels on one side. My question is, how did the connection from the other rail get to the motor on the Loco. I don't remember any sort of brush contact with the drive wheels or anything. What is it that I am missing?

Thanks again,
Darrin

Mantua engines had a wire that went from one contact on the motor to the tender, which picks up power from one rail. The other motor contact was grounded to the frame of the emgine, which picked up power from the other rail. It's pretty standard steam loco power pickup (before the days of DCC and RTR plastic steam, anyway).

Only some of the Mantua engines had a light in them. Those that did had a wire running from the motor to the bulb, while the bulb base was grounded to the frame.

[Anonymous]

I kind of guessed that was how it worked, but since I didn't seem to get any effort at all from the motor, thought I might have been missing a wire or something.

Thanks, once again, for the assistance.

BTW, there are several on Ebay, so it shouldn't be too tough. What are these things worth? Any ideas so I don't over bid? Some of them are sitting at the 80 plus dollar range.

Darrin

[dknelson]

$80? Not many years ago I picked one up for $10 but it had been poorly painted.
I also got a Mantua 2-8-2 for #20 at auction just a few years ago. And these were both older versions where the tender was all metal (originally the cabs were metal but they switched to plastic pretty early). Frankly I think $80 is high even for one in good condition
But like they say -- the value of anything is set by a willing buyer and willing seller ....

Dave Nelson

[orsonroy]

At one point or another, I had over 15 Mantua engines. Most were picked up at swaps or on Ebay, and I haven't paid more than $40 for any of them. $80 is WAY too high for a used Mantua engine!

[Anonymous]

That was kind of what I thought. Maybe I was just missing something on those auctions. There is one that was completely restored that was only sitting at 19.00. I added it to my watch list, but I couldn't believe a buy it now price of 125.00!?!?!?

Thanks for the input again. I love these forums!!

Darrin

edit: I looked again and the high dollar ones are sealed, or stated to be new, never runs. My mistake. But, is that still a little high? The one claims a list price of $235.00. Just trying to make sense of it all.

[dknelson]

Late in its existence Mantua was trying to enter the collectible "Franklin Mint" market with glossy painted versions of their engines, some with extra lost wax brass castings (which they left unpainted to prove their were brass! - 'cause of course once painted, who knows?) and on wooden bases with brass plaques. The paint was so thick the rivets (already becoming blunt due to the age of the dies) just about disappeared. Nonetheless some poor suckers out there paid the outrageous list prices and that might be what they are trying to sell on Ebay.
Dave Nelson