Before installing DCC into my Westside brass Cotton Belt 4-8-4, I would like to replace the original open frame motor with a can motor because I think the engine will run better then. Here are 5 photos of the model. Measurements of the open frame motor are 45mm in length, 20mm in height and 16mm in thickness. I found out, that inside the firebox there is enough place to host a motor has a maximum thickness of 22mm.
I found 2 Canon can motors on ebay that concerning their measurements would fit.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/121143234504?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
http://www.ebay.com/itm/131002404368?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
One of them has a 6pin female plug attached what I would prefer. But I don´t know which one of these 2 motors is more suitable for this model, or if they are suitable at all. I´m not a motor expert at all, so that´s why I´m asking. What´s the difference between the EN/CN 22 and the DN 22 motor and what is it that makes the EN/CN 22 so much more expensive than the DN 22?
I guess removing the open frame motor shouldn´t be so difficult: Just remove the screws and pull the shaft out of the rubber tube and that´s it. But what about installing the can motor? How should I install it? I guess I need a mounting/holder for it. How does such a mounting/holder for such a can motor look like and where can I purchase it and how can I install/fix it in order to put the can motor in it´s final position? Any advices?
Nice locomotive!
I can't answer your questions on the can motors but I do want to make you aware of another way of improving the existing open frame motor's performance and reducing the current draw. That is to replace the original magnet with neodymium magnets like these:
https://www.kjmagnetics.com/products.asp?cat=11
You will have to do a little measuring to see which magnets will fit best but you will end up using two stacks of magnets close to this size:
https://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=B824
The improvement in performance is significant, and you don't have to worry about how to mount a new motor. If you can't get the stack of magnets to fit exactly you can use any magnetic metal to shim the fit. It is an easy task to do.
Good luck with your project!
Regards
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Thanks, yes it´s really a nice model. Can´t wait to install DCC with sound, headlight, cab light and smoke inside it and paint it!
Thank you very much for giving me this idea! I never heard about it before! Sounds awesome that these magnets are able to improve the performance so much that a motor change won´t be needed!
Question: I´m not familiar with open frame motors at all because this is my first engine with an open frame motor. Where is the original magnet? Can you maybe show me the position of it and the position where I will need to place the new neodimium magnets by downloading one of the photos, marking the position with a red dot or red circle and upload the photo here so I can see and know where exactly to take the measures? I would really like to see that! Sounds very good and way easier than the hassle of searching a correct can motor and installing it!
The old magnet is a large square block with a slot through it for a screw to clamp it in the metal pole piece plates.you need a stack of about 4 or 5 of the K&J magnets that Dave recommends .It looks like this size would allow 2 stacks.
The most important thing is that there should be no air gaps between th magnets and pole pieces. I use pieces of xacto blades just break the sharp end off and use the end that mounts in the knife blade holder. These magnets are very powerful compared to the magnets that come with open frame motors. Just stack them together place them in the motor between the pole pieces and reuse tha long screw to hold them in place. About the only problem you may have is if the stacks are put in the wrong way you will have the engine running in the wrong direction. If that happen flip the stack to correct that.
I have done this with great sucess on about 30 Hobbytown drives with DC 70 open frame motors and the smaller motor that is used in their switcher chassis. I used one stack but make sure their is no air gap between the pole pieces Use shim like the pieces of the xacto blades. The result has been about 2 tenths of an amp less current and better control throughout the speed range including even slower low starting speed .
Take a look at the illustration in this MicroMark page. It shows the before and after of super magnet installation in an open frame motor. http://www.micromark.com/super-magnets-20-pieces,9966.html
Joe
De Luxe:
Joe's link to the Micro Mark picture gives you a good idea of what the change looks like (thank you Joe). However, I would do it a little differently. The picture shows a single stack of magnets but in your case I think there will be plenty of space for two stacks running parallel to the motor shaft and placed on either side of the screw.
When you take the magnet out you will be able to measure the height and length exactly. Have a look through the selection of magnets to see what size can be stacked to match the outer dimensions of the original magnet. There will be a gap up the center where the two stacks sit either side of the screw but don't worry about that. Ron's suggestion about using X-acto blade shanks as fillers if needed is good, but you can use anything of the proper thickness as long as it is magnetic.
To get the magnets oriented properly first stick them together in two stacks and then put the stacks together in a block the same shape as the original magnet. The magnets will tell you if they are oriented correctly. If they aren't they simply won't go together. Then separate the two stacks and put one on either side of the screw.
A strong word of caution!! Neodymium magnets are fragile! They can shatter if they are allowed to snap together too hard. Hang on to them when you are lining them up, and make sure you keep individual magnets or stacks far enough apart from each other on the workbench that they won't pull themselves together. Eye protection is a good idea. Once they are in place there isn't much risk if any.
As was mentioned, if the motor runs backwards just turn the stacks 180 degrees. You might want to check which way the shaft rotates with the original magnet in place. Then you can test the direction of rotation with the new magnets before putting the locomotive back together.
I'll see if I can find more pictures.
Edit:
Here is another page showing the conversion with a single stack of magnets:
http://www.proto87.com/page120.html
Here is a page showing a single stack of larger magnets where the screw is not used:
http://webspace.webring.com/people/ib/budb3/arts/motor/pit71nmag.html
Here's a good forum for pics!
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/p/244634/2725871.aspx
good luck!
Charles
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Modeling the Santa Fe & Pennsylvania in HO
Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLb3FRqukolAtnD1khrb6lQ
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Made Charles' link clickable.
Thank you all for these very helpful informations and links. Now I´m sure I won´t install a can motor because there is no need since installing these magnets will be much easier and cheaper while having the same results (maybe even better?). That was a really good advice, and I´m thankful to have the chance to get to know new things through forums like this!
Make sure to tuneup your motor before you install the new magnets and you will have a sweet running unit. You might want to test the amp draw before and after your installation just for reference.
In case it doesn;t work out - both of those motors appear to be the same model, just one has wires and that connector attached. You'd need to find the mating half of that connector for it to be of any use.
COmmon way of installing can motors is to use silicon sealant to hold it in place, since you generally don;t have a place to drive a screw into the motor to use the old method used to attach the existing motor. You mave have to fabricate a base to raise the can motor up, you want the shaft to be as straight as possible. Universal joints can handle small variations, but they run smoothest when straight.
Do try the magnets though, that plus a good cleaning of the commutator and lubrication of the motor bearings should give good results.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
If I can just add my to Randy's advice, do not lubricate the commutator. The commutator is the round copper section of the motor that the brushes run on. It has a few slots in it. You can use a pencil eraser or a Q-tip with some alcohol on it to clean it.
Also, if you want to use the best possible lubricants, consider buying some Nano Oil. It's not cheap but it does an amazing job! I would suggest only buying the 10 wt. and the 85 wt.:
http://www.nano-oil.com/Products.html
To give you an example of how well it works, a little while ago I bought a small powered truck from Hollywood Foundaries. It looks like a regular freight truck but it has a motor attached. It came lubricated from the factory but the mfr. also recommended a two hour run in period. Instead of running it in, I applied a tiny amount of 10 wt. Nano Oil to the bushings and 85 wt. to the gears. Within an few seconds of running the truck at about 1/4 throttle the speed increased dramatically.
I think that if you are into brass locomotives the Nano Oil would be a great investment.
Hi,
it seems DN22 is 3-pole version of EN22, this justifies the price difference (maybe). I would go for 5-pole motor in any case.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/p/193714/2115155.aspx
Hrvoje
Clickable link.
A number of the motors I converted with magnets ha a felt between the magnet and motor frame. If a motor ha that felt be sure to keep it in place with the replacement magnets .The felt is for lubricatation of the rear shaft bearing .After reassembling be sure to lubricate that felt ,if no felt at least use some oil on the shaft bearings. A good resource for help is a Yahoo group called Repower and Regear lots of good info and suggestions and members are great about answering questions of all kinds.
I have also used the Nano oil and found it worthwhile.
I used some of thes Canon motors on some of my Hobbytown drives with the Standard /High speed gearing. They worked well with this gearing but not the low speed gearing because the Canon motors have a lower RPM tha the open frame. If I recall the RPM of Canons ranged from 5500 to 6800 RPM compared to a lot of motors in our hobby that have a 10,000 to 12,000 RPM .So you have to be aware of motor RPM and gearing on your engine. I bought most of my Canon motors at bargain prices a few years back 2.00 to 6.00 each. I don't do steam so I can't be much help about this issue but the Yahoo Repower and Regear group could help with RPM and gear ratio questions
Ron High
The motors referenced are too slow. That is a easy engine to install a can motor as it has a gearbox. Simply build a mount out of plastic and attach to the frame with a screw. Use silicone to attach the motor to the new mount. Get a drive shaft kit to connect to the gear box. 2.00 MM shaft at the motor and 2.3 mm at the gearbox. Keep the driveshaft couplers inline reduce vibrations.
Jim
hon30critter if you want to use the best possible lubricants, consider buying some Nano Oil. It's not cheap but it does an amazing job! I would suggest only buying the 10 wt. and the 85 wt.:
WARNING:
It turns out that Nano Oil will destroy plastics. EDIT: Styrene.
Please read this:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/261415.aspx