Just received this yesterday, and am favorably impressed.
Several changes from previous MTH steamers are welcome. I think this is one of the first steamers to have the upgraded DCC CV list that their diesels have had for a few years. Acceleration/deceleration, speed tables, curves, tweaks and consisting are all there. You no longer have to hit F3 to turn on the sound; just advance the throttle. This and keeper capacitors for track dropouts make for fewer stalls/sound drops. This also means programming tracks will usually not work without boosters. All function buttons can be reassigned.
Construction, detail and paint appear very good. Whistle and bell sound great, but dry (no reverb). I don't know if they are prototype. The whistle has pitch bending, but only with DCS. Minor quibbles: no hinged apron on the cab; no independent control of individual sound levels (unless I mis-read the manual). Also may be a problem with non-compliance to RP25 wheel contours; I notice the tender bumps up slightly when entering my Peco switch flangeways. Will check further on this.
Hal
The M3/4 is my all-time favorite articulated steam locomotive (I've got 3 old Akane models that do yeoman service on my railroad), but my main question would be: How well do they operate on straight DC, and has MTH made any kind of improvement in their straight DC response? Generally speaking, MTH locomotives are just about useless in straight DC, at least the ones I've seen at my LHS. If there's been some kind of improvement, I might be interested, but if not--well then, forget it. And I know I'm not alone in my concern.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Haven't tried DC yet, but there may be changes. Suggest go to their website where there is a 49 page manual in PDF.
Measured the tender flange depths, and they they are .0275", while the NMRA allows up to .028". But I see that my Intermountain and KD wheels measure .024-.025". So the Peco flangeways seem OK for them, as there is no bump, but a little shallow for max depth flanges.
I notice something peculiar about the M3's decoder. After powerup, the first time I try the whistle or turn on the headlight, it malfunctions. After that, it seems fine.
Have been lusting after this loco since it was announced but to pricey
For me at the moment
In seeing this locomotive I feel it's one long needed in HO.though at this price point feel the sheet metal connecation betweeen the engine and tender. Should have been incLuded. also noticed the sander lines extending from the sand domes are molded on detail and not painted black contrasting with the grey boiler which would have improved their appearence!.
thomas81zHave been lusting after this loco
While this engine is not brass, it is cast metal and the tender is also metal. BTW, it has a two-position wireless drawbar for closer coupling on broad radii.
I have about 20 different BLI steam, maybe 20 steam of other brands. My expensive BLI 4-12-2 had an unsynchronized chuff which could only be fixed by replacing the decoder with another brand and adding new magnetic pickups. Other BLI's developed cracked gears. My Athearns had poor quality MRC sound decoders that I had to replace. Some of my Bachmanns have poor quality drive trains. They all have some failings.
MTH could not sell DCS into the HO market, even though it is technically superior to DCC, and I think negative feedback about the DCC part of their steam decoder caused them to re-design it.
I have four sets of MTH passenger cars, and believe they are better for similar prices than my 12 or so Walthers sets.
Unfortunate attitude and politics at times, though.
Hal, politics, DCS and policies aside, MTH insists on using 18 volt motors making it difficult to remove the DCS equipment for 12 volt DC operation or good conversion to other DCC decoders.
If it will not run at a reasonable top speed at 12-14 volts, it will not be on my layout and is not in the spirit of NMRA standards.
Since it is pretty well established that DCC only commands 1/2 to 2/3 the HO market, MTH has walked away from a lot of potential customers.
As for their detail level, good but not great in my view. Many details are simply too oversized and course.
As for DCS being better, that depends on your needs and wants. From what I understand DCS lacks a number of features that are the heart of DCC for many of the most serious in this hobby.
Personally, I have no interest in DCC or DCS, or onboard sound.
Sheldon
I don't ever intend to use DCS, and feel that it was a blunder for MTH to think that it could win people away who already are invested in DCC. One prime necessity would have been to make an aftermarket decoder which would have allowed retrofits. But this would not be straightforward, since the present decoders are split.
A detailed technical comparison was made some time back which I don't have a reference for at the moment. But it showed that DCS has some features foreign to DCC, and I don't remember seeing any features missing that DCC has. Would somebody be willing to point them out? DCS is fully two-way and has much faster response times. Engines report themselves when placed on the track. The throttle has absolute speed control via tachometers in the engines, and smooth consisting is easy. The connection to the tender is done wirelessly in the drawbar, and is lightyears ahead of using tiny connectors and a bundle of wires (or two bundles with Bachmanns), both in appearance and reliability.
As you say, you don't use either system, but I live with six MTH engines and about 80 DCC engines, and with the new steam decoder, I think MTH has moved where it needed to, to become competitive. Not arguing that they haven't had problems with correct decoration and accurate details. I don't see much of a speed problem, since they seem good to any speed I would ever use, neighborhood of 80mph. Plus crawl speeds are good out of the box. Walters adapted new gears in their diesels for better crawl speeds a few years ago that now won't go any faster. I guess it's a matter of which aspects seem most important to the buyer, but I like this engine about as well as any others I have.
Hal,
With respect to the speed issue, take one of your MTH locos, use a DC system limited to 12 volts, or even 14 volts and get back to me......
DCC generally uses higher voltages, 15 to 18 depending, and speed is not an issue with MTH locos on DCC.
But with DC systems with well regulated power supplies, intended for ALL manner of DC locos, MTH locos run very slow. This has been reported in nearly EVERY review of an MTH loco.
True enough that dual mode DCC decoders are not perfect either in this regard, but no where near as bad as MTH DCS.
So even if MTH was to expand their offerings of "DCC ready" DC powered locos, with the motors currently in use, they would not be acceptable for a great number of DC users.
I have bought lots of DCC equiped locos, which promply loose their decoders and run fine on my 13.8 volt regulated power supply DC system controled by Aristo Train Engineer wireless radio throttles.
As for Walthers and gearing - well I don't buy those either - bad move on their part.
I find it interesting that those who sing the phrases of MTH are quick to bash Bachmann and/or BLI......
I'm not much of a BLI fan - weak detail, high priced - espeically the "generic" 2-8-2, 4-6-2, and 2-8-0 - but at least I can buy them relatively cheap on sale and gut the decoders and run them on DC.
Bachmann - agreed, not all their products have been great, but many of them are very good, and overall a much better "value", dollar for dollar, than MTH or BLI from where I sit.
Where do I sit? I am a modeler, not a collector. I want locos I can modify, kit bash, and adapt to my modeling needs. MTH does not suit that. I have 5 BLI locos that now have Bachmann tenders - so much for wireless tender to loco communications.......
I'm surely not going to restrict my modeling to "stock" versions "out of the box" from any of these companies.
Respectfully, MTH is in the HO "highrail", "collectable" business, and that's fine - it's not a side of the hobby that is of interest to me.
In 43 years in ths hobby, I've never owned a model of a Big Boy, or the loco in question - I don't model either railroad..........
MTH has made it perfectly clear by their product choices and engineering approach what kind of modelers they are interested in - and it is not modelers like me.
I have about 45 steam loco models, and about 125 locos total. Bachmann and pre Walthers Proto lead the list, followed by a nice fleet of Intermountain and Genesis EMD F units.
They all run really great.
Most of my locos have been modified to closer fit their prototype or to suit the needs of my protolanced ATLANTIC CENTRAL - not one MTH product has ever tempted me in these regards........
As for DCC, I may not use it on my home layout, but I have considerable experience using it, its benefits do not justify the cost in my situation........one of those primary benefits being onboard sound - which sounds like static on a 1968 nine transistor radio to my HiFi trained ears.......
For the $600 price tag of this loco, I would rather have two Bachmann EM-1's......oh, that's right, I do model the B&O so I do buy those......
A comparison from my perspective:
MTH 2-8-4: Oversized cast on detail, only correct for one of 4 or 5 roadnames offered, expensive - does run well on DCC or DCS, poorly on DC.
Bachmann 2-8-4: not perfect but very good road specific details, correct domes, different pilots, tenders, and cabs for all the roads offered. A little light on it feet out of the box but easily upgraded with more weight. Detail is generally fine and in scale, not oversized. Many applied detail parts. Value priced since its original introduction, still in the $200 or less range in many cases. Great potential to kit bash less popular versions like the VIRGINIAN version, which would be dificult at best with MTH. Runs well on DC, tender is sound ready on all versions.
I did this with the Bachmann version - freelance heavy Mike based on the DT&I 800 class:
This photo is before the paint shop....... I did five of these - for less than the cost of one average MTH loco....... Sheldon PS - Hal, I don't know which Bachmann locos you have experiance with, but here is some useful info i posted years ago: http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/181314.aspx?page=1 Sometime the littlest things can make a big difference......(but I have no idea why I can't make this link active?)
This photo is before the paint shop.......
I did five of these - for less than the cost of one average MTH loco.......
PS - Hal, I don't know which Bachmann locos you have experiance with, but here is some useful info i posted years ago:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/181314.aspx?page=1
Sometime the littlest things can make a big difference......(but I have no idea why I can't make this link active?)
Picked my M3 up today. It is just as Hal stated in his review. It looks, runs and sounds great. This my 10th MTH steam engine and I love them all.
I also have hooked up dcs to my layout to get more out of my MTH engines and I really like it, very intuitive and very easy to hook up and to use. Now I need some DMIR ore cars.
David, I need some too, so if you see a good price for several dozen, let me know.
I buy some interesting locos new, but I also like picking up bargain P2K diesels or steam, Intermountain F units and such at shows, and painting/installing sound in them.
I am thankful for BLI for so many varieties of sound engines. Most, not all, are good looking and operating units. The sound varies.
I also appreciate the looks of the Bachmann Spectrum models, some of which I added sound to. Mechanically, I don't much like some of their smallest locos that have tiny motors and belt drives. I bought a used Santa Fe Northern that developed driver/axle slippage, and since Bachmann didn't have the parts, they thankfully replaced it with an improved version for a few bucks. I like my EM-1 fine, especially with a better sound decoder.
Will run a few DC tests on the MTH's and report what top speeds I find.
Just a note to those considering the MTH Yellowstone but not particularly interested in hauling only ore trains:
During WWII, when the Missabe was frozen over for the winter, they loaned out their M3's to several other railroads, most notably the Rio Grande (Northern Pacific and Great Northern reportedly borrowed some, also) where they were used both on the Moffat and Tennessee Pass lines. In fact, when the M4's were released by Baldwin in 1944, they went straight to the Rio Grande until spring. Rio Grande said that the M-series Yellowstones were the best steamers they'd ever operated. And evidently a couple of them found their way to the eastern end of the Western Pacific, also. So these handsome, powerful steamers were not just ore haulers all of their lives. In fact, they spent almost as much time "off-line" during the winter, as they did "on-line" during the rest of the year.
Tom,
Very interesting, thank you. They are indeed very beautiful locos.
Being an east coat modeler, I have their east coast cousins the B&O EM-1.
But tied for my favorite big locos, are the N&W Class A and the C&O H8, both designed to be nimble, fast and powerful.
twhite Just a note to those considering the MTH Yellowstone but not particularly interested in hauling only ore trains: During WWII, when the Missabe was frozen over for the winter, they loaned out their M3's to several other railroads, most notably the Rio Grande (Northern Pacific and Great Northern reportedly borrowed some, also) where they were used both on the Moffat and Tennessee Pass lines. In fact, when the M4's were released by Baldwin in 1944, they went straight to the Rio Grande until spring. Rio Grande said that the M-series Yellowstones were the best steamers they'd ever operated. And evidently a couple of them found their way to the eastern end of the Western Pacific, also. So these handsome, powerful steamers were not just ore haulers all of their lives. In fact, they spent almost as much time "off-line" during the winter, as they did "on-line" during the rest of the year. Tom
Mth will be releasing 6 packs of DMIR ore cars. Not sure when though. Walthers train line have released 4 or 6 packs of DMIR taconite ore cars.
Dave