Dave
I ahve long been a member of the NMRA. I completely disagree with you whole statement. Lets start of with this _
WHY BUY THE COW IF YOU CAN GET THE MILK FOR FREE ????
I think the management has taken a responsible step and letting everyone know hey their is a limit to the freeloading. I resent people who come and TAKE ADVANTAGE of the serives I pay for. You wanna play ? PAY UP !
Next the whole idea that their isnt any benefit of being a memeber HOG WASH !!!
Here are some reasons :
1) Membership compared to other organizations is INCREDIBLY CHEAP. Try buying country club membership !!!
2) The yearly calender sent out in my opinion is worth the price of entering alone.
3) The NMRA Magazine has much improved and for the member ship alone this is worth the price of admittance
4) Fellowship with awsome like minded hobbist is another great reason for the memebrship.
5) LHS - Offer some NMRA members discounts !
6) Providing standards that WE ALL benefit from.
I think it is beyond fair. No more milk for free !
Adelie The other thing I think we can put to rest is if there were no standards there would be chaos because every manufacturer would be out there producing stuff that was incompatible with everybody else.
The other thing I think we can put to rest is if there were no standards there would be chaos because every manufacturer would be out there producing stuff that was incompatible with everybody else.
Yes that is exactly what will happen. We know this because it happens again and again. Not only was it needed in the beginning, it's needed now.
The only reason DCC is popular and available factory installed is because of the DCC standards. Before that there were several competing command control systems that did not work with each other. Whoever you went with, you had to use only their throttle, command station, decoders, etc. It's only with the standard that your decoder works with several systems, it's also the reason MTH's latest protosound 3 decoders work with DCC, it's also the reason that so many manufacturers offer their locomotives with decoders, etc.
MTH's DCS and Lionel's Legacy/TMCC systems are not compatible. MTH now has decoders that work with DCC. So even though I don't have a DCS setup I can (and have) run MTH Protosound 3 locomotives with my NCE DCC ssytem. Lionel Legacy doesn't do that - I don't buy Lionel Legacy locomotives.
BTW, have you tried running Marklin HO with your other HO stuff?
Enjoy
Paul
"remember the time when the majority of the modelers was in the NMRA"
Yes, and dues were $5.00 a year! Using 1969 dollars, the same $5.00 would be $33.00 in 2015. Source: http://www.dollartimes.com/inflation/inflation.php?amount=100&year=1969
Bob Bochenek
BRAKIE Look at both sides of the coin.. At the same price of a fast food meal( at $5.50 month) you get to attend your local division's mothly meetings and take in layout tours or you can buy that fast food meal gain weight and clog your arteries.
Look at both sides of the coin..
At the same price of a fast food meal( at $5.50 month) you get to attend your local division's mothly meetings and take in layout tours or you can buy that fast food meal gain weight and clog your arteries.
Local division? Wish I had one. I assume I live in the same region as ricktrains4824. I approached Niagara Frontier Region management and VOLUNTEERED to try and reactivate our local division. The answer....You're not a officer, therefore you don't have a right to the membership list. This was over 5 years ago and since then I am still waiting for a decision from NMRA leadership! That's why my membership expires today.
Yes sir. Same region. And, I believe, same division. (I am in southern Erie county Pa. IIRC, Bradford is in same division as Cattaragus, and Chataqua counties NY, Erie, Craford, and Warren counties, along with your county, Mckean county, Pa, all under the same division in the NF region of the NMRA.)
I had no idea someone had volunteered to help deactivate the area.... And I had spoken with an officer of a neighboring division (In Ohio) about joining a few years back. (Was informed by him, that I would have to stay in Pa divisions, and that over the "fight" the division I lived in wasno longer active. Best option, according to him, was the division that covered Clarion Pa.)
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
Chris and Ricky....
Yes, you are both in the same inactive division (two west of mine). Since I am a voting member of the Region I know a lot of the circumstances that happened way back many years ago to your division. And, I have a long series of email still saved on my computer from about 5 years ago...... I don't think this is a proper venue to air the dirty laundry, so to speak....
I will tell you that I was trying to help get you folks back up and running through an interest in forming a 100% club several years ago. (My ear got bent for some time every time I had a Modelers Corner at the Batavia Show) so I communicated with all the people involved at both the club and the Region. Unfortunately the critical mass never happened. Chris we have met on at least one occassion. It was in Victor, NY IIRC. [Edit - just looked it up.. It was in Auburn, NY at a combined LSD and CNY Winter meet in 2013.] I applaud your wanting to get the Division back running. Nuff said!
I would suggest that both of you hold on for a bit longer as there is a move afoot that may change some things that should be a help. Can't discuss them here.
Ricky, you can attend any NMRA event anywhere in the world. An NMRA member is an NMRA member! What you can't do is join another Division or Region. You are put in the Division/Region based on where you live. You can only be a voting member or an officer in your own Division. There are some good reasons for that (that I won't go into here). Again some big changes are in the offing, so hang in there and perhaps this will all change for you guys.
73
Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO
We'll get there sooner or later!
I recently received my NMRA renewal letter and was going to renew, but after wading through all of these posts, I am now giving it serious pause.
Nah, just kidding--I am going to renew. As a relative newbie, I appreciate how easy it is to enjoy the shared technology made possible by the DCC standards.
Richard
howmus What you can't do is join another Division or Region. You are put in the Division/Region based on where you live. You can only be a voting member or an officer in your own Division. There are some good reasons for that (that I won't go into here). Again some big changes are in the offing, so hang in there and perhaps this will all change for you guys. 73
What you can't do is join another Division or Region. You are put in the Division/Region based on where you live. You can only be a voting member or an officer in your own Division. There are some good reasons for that (that I won't go into here). Again some big changes are in the offing, so hang in there and perhaps this will all change for you guys.
Well you had better go into them, I can throw a rock from my house to Division 4 in Cuyahoga County, but since I live in Northern Summit County I would have to belong to Division 1. All my friends and fellow club members are in Division 4 but I can't join or vote with them.
I was a member back when it was about $20.00 plus $3.00 for Region and $2.00 for Division and you joined each separtely. Then you could join the Division without joining the Region or National. This was a Better Way to grow the organization rather than from the top down.
The next biggest joke was that when I lived in Alaska we were part of the Pacific Northwest Division, a 4 hour flight by jet from Anchorage.
I am a bowler and we are having the same problem with the USBC, dues keep going up and bowler awards and services are going down. The money is needed for a bloated national organization with the local members being left to blow with the wind.
Rick J
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
howmus Ricky, you can attend any NMRA event anywhere in the world. An NMRA member is an NMRA member! What you can't do is join another Division or Region. You are put in the Division/Region based on where you live. You can only be a voting member or an officer in your own Division. There are some good reasons for that (that I won't go into here). Again some big changes are in the offing, so hang in there and perhaps this will all change for you guys.
IRONROOSTER Adelie The other thing I think we can put to rest is if there were no standards there would be chaos because every manufacturer would be out there producing stuff that was incompatible with everybody else. Yes that is exactly what will happen. We know this because it happens again and again. Not only was it needed in the beginning, it's needed now. The only reason DCC is popular and available factory installed is because of the DCC standards. Before that there were several competing command control systems that did not work with each other. Whoever you went with, you had to use only their throttle, command station, decoders, etc. It's only with the standard that your decoder works with several systems, it's also the reason MTH's latest protosound 3 decoders work with DCC, it's also the reason that so many manufacturers offer their locomotives with decoders, etc. MTH's DCS and Lionel's Legacy/TMCC systems are not compatible. MTH now has decoders that work with DCC. So even though I don't have a DCS setup I can (and have) run MTH Protosound 3 locomotives with my NCE DCC ssytem. Lionel Legacy doesn't do that - I don't buy Lionel Legacy locomotives. BTW, have you tried running Marklin HO with your other HO stuff? Enjoy Paul
Not in Marklin or HO.
- Mark
Hi Ray,
Indeed we have met in the past. I did indeed drive 150+ miles and pay for a hotel to attend one of your meets. And a fine day I had! I applaud your division's effort in being one of the outstanding division in the NMRA. I happen to work in a job that allows me the time and disposable income to be able to attend meets in other divisions. This spring I participated in CNY's OPTUD weekend. So I do have an issue with paying the NMRA my membership fee and having to invest more money to participate in NMRA events.
And I really see no reason why the forum members that are on the fence about the NMRA aren't aware that I've been waiting for 5 years for a resolution of a NMRA problem. The NMRA is expecting the members to be the nuts and bolts of the organization but are unwilling, or at the very least, dragging their feet, coming up with a resolution to what happened. As I said in other posts...I don't dislike the time I've been a member of the NMRA. If you're reading this post and are on the fence, I encourage you to try the Rail-Pass membership and attend as many local events as you can and make your own decision! Look at the various newsletters from the division that are out there and you can see that there are some the provide excellent programs!
Ricky W, all I will say, is don't waste your time or gas money. You can send me a message if you want the bloody details!
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
Adelie So, do you think MTH started producing locomotives with decoders that work on DCC because of the NMRA standard, or because they figured out DCS was not exactly taking over the world and they were unnecesarily limiting the marketing of their products by not being compartible with DCC?
So, do you think MTH started producing locomotives with decoders that work on DCC because of the NMRA standard, or because they figured out DCS was not exactly taking over the world and they were unnecesarily limiting the marketing of their products by not being compartible with DCC?
Both. I think they added DCC capability to sell more. But without the standard there would have been no need. They would have been another proprietary command control system among many, all non compatible and all competing for market share on an equal basis.
What's interesting is that their protosound 3 is in their 3 rail O gauge locomotives and I think eventually Lionel will add DCC compatibility to their Legacy system. I think DCC will become the norm in the Toy Train Market. In my case not having to buy either DCS or Legacy to get command control for my 3 rail trains is big plus and why I will be looking at MTH not Lionel for future 3 rail locomotives.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good argument.
The "three times and you are out" rule has everything to do with insurance coverage and tax rules.
How many people here contributed cash to JMRI and their legal fund? If they had lost that case JMRI would be, worst case, history, or a piece of software you would have to pay for because someone demanded patent fees. How many would be willing to pay $40 or more for software that was once free?
The NMRA has an interest in defeating patent trolls, because they would result in increased prices or reduced features based on a patent of dubious value. Defending your interests costs money and time.
NMRA Standards evolve, and they also mean you don't have to worry about a manufacturer demanding payment to use that standard. DCC was designed to avoid infringing on any patents Lenz had, thus preventing a sudden demand for payment for their use.
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
ndbprr,Really? You have been here 13 years with 6000+ posts and you don't know how the Standards and Recommended Practices relate to our hobby?
For starters, the Standards and RP's are not enforceable. It's not like the NMRA can sue any manufacturer (or hobbyist) and force them to follow the S & RP's. They only need to follow them to get the NMRA C&I "football" emblem, but few manufacturers apply for one.
There is no "...standard that justifies big boys on 22" radius track." That's purely a matter of choice in both the manufacturer for making such a thing possible and the hobbyist for trying to do so. All the S & RP's can do is say if you try to run a Big Boy on a 22"R curve, then you need X amount of clearance. That said Big Boy needs to have it's wheels set Y amount apart. That said Big Boy needs to have the center of the coupler mount at Z amount off the rail head. And so on. There's nothing in the S & RP that will ever "justify" any modeling decision. All they can say is that if you want to do A, you need to do B to be compliant.
The X2F horn hook was never an NMRA Standard or RP. From what I understand, it failed to get final approval (all for the best, IMHO). All the NMRA Standards and RP's I have copies of only mention coupler position (centered, height, etc.)...except for dummy couplers in RP21.2. The dummies are described in detail, but that's about it.
Paul A. Cutler III
ndbprrSo the standards are the bible for modlers and manufacturers. Explain the standard that justifies big boys on 22" radius track. Or the clearance on diesels and passenger cars on small radius track. How about the greatest effort. The X2F coupler when serious modelers use Kadees and not much else. I don't recall that standard Either the standards are not being used by both modelers and manufactuters or we all have 48" curves and #12 turnouts. Guess I missed the memo since I don't belong.
from S-1
That your HO Big Boy runs on a 22" curve is up to the manufacturer. The standards are to make sure that it runs on everyone's 22" HO track.
If $70 is nothing to you, more power to you, but please do not poo-poo people who express concern that it is a lot. By the time my meager Social Security check covers my rent and utilities, I have $135 a month to live on. $70 may be only $5.50 a month, but it comes all at once. Which month should I live on $65? I can buy a piece of balsa wood or a tube of glue, but $600 locos are far from standard in my world. Banging out a piece of rolling stock from wood and pieces of tin can hammered to shape is rewarding craftsmanship, moreso than a $600 E8, even if I would love to have it. The only reason I can afford a subscription here is that someone buys it for me as a gift each year.
My local model railroad club (not an NMRA club) also has similar rules reguarding attending meetings events (and incidentally similar dues) for the same reasons as described in earlier posts. Our insurance will not cover non-members in the event of some sort of accident that may occur at a membership event.
I decided to join the NMRA so that I could attend the 2014 National convention and train show in Cleveland. I was curious about what the convention had to offer. Some clinics are better than others, but I feel that I got my money's worth out of it. Same with this years convention. Its not for everyone, but if you want benefits of membership, you have to be a member.
I'll close with this thought:
Would you expect a modular model railroad club to allow you to run your newly bought locomotive on a club layout at a show all day with out getting membership dues from you? Test run, maybe, but tie up track and time without being a paying member: No. Thats not fair to the people who payed for membership and built the modules.
My verdict: the NMRA's policy is reasonable.
Like Chris and Rick I live in the Niagara Frontier Region with the local division called the International Division. The area encompasses parts of Erie County, Niagara County and the Province of Ontario, Canada. Unfortunately, the ID only meets twice a year, once in the fall and once in the spring, both in Canada. I just wish they would meet on the US side once in a while as they did many years ago.
The few times I traveled to Canada for a local meet I enjoyed the layout tours. If they came to the U.S. I would gladly open up my layout for a tour.
I was a NMRA member until dropping out of the hobby for many years. Now that I am once again modeling I looked into again joining the NMRA. YIKES! the dues are a lot more but so is everything else nowdays. OK, checked into local meetings and/or clubs. ZERO. Annual regional meetings. Not even in the U.S., in Canada! Website regional updates. Way over a year since last posting.
I like the standards NMRA has developed, for the most part. But for this region fagidaboutit! Yea, I know, what about me, what doI get out of it. Not much in my opinion. Not worth the dues. NMRA meetings, conventions, workshops? Nice but I'm not going to chase all over North America to attend them.
Am in a local group that has dues that are cheap enough to afford and the slick publicatio I get is more than worth the $20.00 annual dues, plus access to the layout anytime. That's a little over 5 pennies a day. No comparison and I only have to travel a few miles to get there.
Once again the NMRA has contribulated a lot to the hobby, but have gotten like some unions, in it for themselves and dang you if you don't follow our rules. I am not anti union and have worked both sides of the label. The non-union shop was better in all ways, but that is not the point of discussion here. Just comparing.
God's Best & Happy Rails to You!
Bing (RIPRR The Route of the Buzzards)
The future: Dead Rail Society
I'm still puzzled at how the NMRA has enforced, or will enforce this, reasonable or not. There was an issue several years ago in which NMRA divisional and regional officers were not paying their NMRA dues, and the organization apparently had a big puzzle in figuring out how to enforce that very reasonable policy. At the time, they asked local members to turn their officers in if they had knowledge that they hadn't paid their dues. So how can anyone in the NMRA know who's paid up at an event or not, if they don't know who among the guys at the head table is paid up?
Debates over the usefulness of the org aside, what assurance does anyone have that their act is together enough to say who's a member when they walk in the door? A lot would presumably have to change before they could say.
JOHN BRUCE III I'm still puzzled at how the NMRA has enforced, or will enforce this, reasonable or not. There was an issue several years ago in which NMRA divisional and regional officers were not paying their NMRA dues, and the organization apparently had a big puzzle in figuring out how to enforce that very reasonable policy. At the time, they asked local members to turn their officers in if they had knowledge that they hadn't paid their dues. So how can anyone in the NMRA know who's paid up at an event or not, if they don't know who among the guys at the head table is paid up? Debates over the usefulness of the org aside, what assurance does anyone have that their act is together enough to say who's a member when they walk in the door? A lot would presumably have to change before they could say.
Each member receives a card in the mail with their membership number and expiration date of membership. Members could be required to produce said card or a local database could be created to list the active membership. It is an interesting problem.
BMMECNYC JOHN BRUCE III I'm still puzzled at how the NMRA has enforced, or will enforce this, reasonable or not. There was an issue several years ago in which NMRA divisional and regional officers were not paying their NMRA dues, and the organization apparently had a big puzzle in figuring out how to enforce that very reasonable policy. At the time, they asked local members to turn their officers in if they had knowledge that they hadn't paid their dues. So how can anyone in the NMRA know who's paid up at an event or not, if they don't know who among the guys at the head table is paid up? Debates over the usefulness of the org aside, what assurance does anyone have that their act is together enough to say who's a member when they walk in the door? A lot would presumably have to change before they could say. Each member receives a card in the mail with their membership number and expiration date of membership. Members could be required to produce said card or a local database could be created to list the active membership. It is an interesting problem.
I think the national organization provides a list to the regions/divisions of the members in their area.
It used to be that joining a division and region were separate from joining the national (although you were supposed to belong to national). But a few years ago, the NMRA changed so that joining the national automatically meant you were member of the region and division for the area where you resided (although not every place is part of a division).
I suspect the 3 visits rule will be mostly enforced with those who regularly show up. I doubt that if you show up for 3 visits this year and then don't come back again for 4 or 5 years anyone will catch on.
It is a reasonable rule. Easy to enforce too. Memberships are handled at the corporate level, and every region and division is supplied with a membership list.
Organizations have bylaws to govern their structure and operations. If the requirement of holding office is to be a member in good standing, anyone not in good standing would be relieved of their position.
By attending their meetings you agree to, and should respect the rules. As the explanation of the policy states, anyone who comes to three meetings and doesn't join, won't anyway.
The policy is designed to protect the NMRA from liability, so freeloaders shouldn't be tolerated. How many other organized groups allow outsiders to attend whenever they want, while everyone else has to pay?
First off, I am not a "joiner" of organizations that have paid officers and/or staff and still claim a non profit status. I am not a member of the NMRA....or the NRA for that matter. I just did a little search and came up with the NMRA tax papers for 2013. They claimed to have taken in over 3 million dollars, but show that they spent 1.7 million of that. So where did the other 1.3 million go? Pretty good for a non profit. They showed they paid out $208,000 in salaries. Doesn't sound like much, but they claim that the Treasurer works the most hours at 10 hours a week. Anywhooooo....
One of my other hobbies in colonial reenactment and blackpowder shooting. A number of years ago abunch of guys that built guns and powder horns and other accoutrements got together and decided that they should form an artisan group and the Contemporary Longrifle Association (CLA) was born. The CLA started out by offering a membership for around $20. A number of artisans across the US and Canada joined the group. The CLA hosted small events where the average person who was not a member could show up and pay a small fee to look at original weapons and accoutrements and the latest reproductions of originals and you were able to purchase items at the shows. The small regional shows were well attended. So the CLA decided to have a large National Show in Lexington, KY...the heart of Daniel Boone land. Joe Public could attend the show and pay a $20 fee and get in to the show. As the show grew, the officers decided to push the artisan aspect and emphasize the weapons and accoutrements as art. Now the weapons are collected by art collectors and prices have gotten outrageous. A flintlock that would have cost about $1500 is now selling for $5000 or more. I saw one that they wanted $16000 for!!!! Anyway, the annual show in Kentucky is in August, a number of guys traveled from several states away to get to the show. They got to the doors and were told they owed $100 before they could get in. They turned around and drove back home. it seems the officers decided that if you paid the $20 gate fee last year, that that was your initial membership dues and NOT a gate fee. They put all those people that attended last years shows on their membership rolls and if they showed up this year they owed $100 before they let them in. In a small niche community, word travels fast. I would venture to say the CLA just shot themselves in the foot. Several of the guys I know who were part of the original members of the group are outraged and have vowed to leave the group.
The NMRA also deals with a small niche group and they could just as easily shoot themselves in the foot. When I lived in Pennsylvania, I had met some of the Division officers for the very same Division (Allegheny Plateau) that Chris and someone else had mentioned above. When you meet people and walk away with the impression that they are a bunch of egotistical, arrogant jerks; what would make you WANT to join their organization? Chris had asked a question on here about a month ago about the NMRA and his experience with the secretivity of a meeting in the same Division. Really, it is a huge secret where the meeting is! It is a bunch of model railroaders! Many of the members will have to change their attitudes if they want to draw others to the organization.
[language edited by moderator]
Robert H. Shilling II
My couple of bucks.............I've been in the hobby since 1941 (that is correct, I am that old, even though I was 3 when I began) I have been a member several times from the days when membership was single digit. I found the organzation to be quite helpful, genuine, and well worth the membership fee even thougn it is ten times higher than when I first joined......but what the hell isn't? Many times I dropped out, mainly because I had limited spare time....and that was being spent on building trains and layouts. I most likely will again join as I believe strongly in NMRA's mission and since my pike is almost complete, I'll have time for other functions such as NMRA meets and whatevers.
Here is my critique.........The hobby is competing with so many things now a days, that attracting new folks is quite tough. I'd like to see NMRA spend more time promoting the hobby rather than servicing its members. We already play with our trains!!
So much could be done.....TV specials and programs. Just check out the dross on the History channel, and try to tell me that a well scripted program on model trains would not be more interesting than catching gators or cutting timber.
How about articles published in magazines such as AARP, various teen magazines, and even National Geographic and more.....airline magazines!!
Have a presence at major Model train shows and events. (Being the once founder and chief promoter of the Great Scale Model Train Show aka Timonium show, for years I'd offer free space and then some to local the NMRA chapter and even national.........nary a response!)
How about billboards? Crazy as this may seem, I think this would work well and space is available quite reasonably.
There is so much more, but I'm afraid I may be getting off message. Perhaps a new thread on this subject would be nice.
HZ