selectorBut sitting in a general membership monthly gathering-and-talk to learn something, or to find out the direction the club is going, or to meet a friend and sit in for the last half of the meeting before going out to a pub.....that, to me, should be open. -Crandell
-Crandell
I agree with you 100%, Crandell, if you're talking about a public event, like the National Train Show on Saturday and Sunday (Friday afternoon is reserved for - OMG! - NMRA National Convention attendees, who must be - again, OMG! - NMRA members!).
But when you're talking about NMRA meets or conventions at any level, then you're by definition not talking about a public event.
You know, I'd like to attend Denver Broncos football games for free. But I can't. They won't let me in the stadium unless I buy a ticket (those narrow-minded sons-of-guns!). I have to pay to attend. If you want to attend NMRA functions (and a lot of them are a lot of fun, believe me!), then step up and pay (via your dues) to attend.
Please don't expect all us dues-paying members to subsidize the paticipation of non-members. If the benefits are not worth it, by all means don't join. But don't expect to get in free.
There are no doubt some who would like to join the NMRA who genuinely can't afford the cost. For them I am truly sorry, and I would be glad to help one or two of those folks with the cost of their dues. I expect I'm not alone in that. But that's not the same as "not worth the cost," and may be a subject for another time.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
I'm sympathetic, and I think the NMRA has done a lot for the hobby, particularly in the area of setting standards. I was an NMRA member for 2, maybe 3 years. And then I gave it up. It wasn't that I disliked it, or that I couldn't afford it, it was just that I didn't feel like the value it delivered was commensurate with the price. I wasn't attending conferences or shows, and I was a member of numerous online groups that didn't cost a penny, but put me in direct contact with some of the best practitioners in the hobby. I could send an email to the Colorado Midland Yahoo group if I had a prototype question, and crowd source the answer to folks like Mel McFarland, who wrote two books about the CM; I could go on the Yahoo HOn3 site and get advice on the finer points of kit building with a craft kit maker like Eric Bracher or an author like Boone Morrison. That's tough competition, but the world has changed.
A lot of businesses and organizations are struggling with the implications of this. I stopped subscribing to MR a few years back for similar reasons, but I changed my mind earlier this year. Why? Because, by opening the vault on everything they've ever done for less than $5 a month, they made the MR subscription a really good deal, and everything I've seen since then has convinced me that I was right (particularly that Furlow video last week - thanks, guys!). I think Kalmbach has adapted well to the changing world, and I only hope that the other institutions that support the hobby can do the same. I'm not particularly heartened by stories like the "three strikes" rule.
http://mprailway.blogspot.com
"The first transition era - wood to steel!"
When I started reading this thread I though there was no way I'd join.
But now I may. I like the idea of maintaining standards.
This may be a tough sell though as i just lectured my wife about her shoe and makeup subscriptions.
T e d
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
Me again..... A lot of talk about "Benefits". Most people won't use all of them and many could care less about any of these, but here is the list of what the NMRA considers to be a "Benefit" of membership.
The fellowship and assistance of over 18,000 members across the globe. (Every Division should have a Member Aid person who's job is to get answers to people.)
NMRA Online Archives
Kalmback Memorial Library
Achievement Program (AP)
Conventions (Regional and National)
Standards and Conformance
NMRA Magazine
Liability Inmsurance for Clubs
Liability Insurance for Meets and Shows
Pike Registry
Collection Insurance
Beginner's Guide
Heritage and Living legends Cars
Modeling With the Masters
Clinic Slides, Tapes, and DVD's
Discounts and Advance Registration on New KML Books
Local Divisions
"Members Only" Company Store
NMRA Standards Guages & Turnout Templates
Annual NMRA Calendar
Howell Day Museum (future)
Just my 2¢
73
Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO
We'll get there sooner or later!
Well, let's see:
My thoughts:
1- The division I live in has zero events, zero people. (Some stupid fight, everyone got mad at everyone, and left. Seriously.) Nearest one in state (I was told I would have to go in state when I inquired.) is 2.5 hours away, and always on nights that I work.
2- I lost my good paying job earlier this year, and now, with new job, I truly could not afford an extra $70 to be a member. (To prove the point, I have allowed to expire all of my hobby related subscriptions and memberships I did have.)
3- The only "events" even close to me by any division is shows, open, usually, to the public, for an entry fee. (Sure, I will pay the membership fee, if it gets me in the door of these events for free, except there is not enough of them close enough by me to justify. I have not spent $70 on entry fees to these shows, in over the past 4 years combined. And, it does not, to the best of my knowledge, provide this as a benefit anyway. So it's a moot point.)
4- When other organizations have adopted this policy (or very similar) they have all gone away very shortly thereafter.
They don't want non-members getting in for free? Small entry fee, like all the shows open to the public, would work much better here, IMHO.
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
I was a member, too mank clicks, reminded me of high school! Standards used to be important but now things are changing, don't know many that use their weight guides anymore, their gauge is still valuble though. As far as information, they really lost me when I inquired about lifetime membership and never gave me the numbers, six months later they discontinued the program, note 6 months, at which time they said the program was no longer avalable. The real problem with the NMRA is they no longer have any control of the local groups (in fact there was talk of our reginal breaking away from the orginal orginization over certain disputes when I was a member). Last a lot of the things they offered are now found online and for free.
howmus Me again..... A lot of talk about "Benefits". Most people won't use all of them and many could care less about any of these, but here is the list of what the NMRA considers to be a "Benefit" of membership. ... Heritage and Living legends Cars ... 73
...
Isn't it time this one was dropped. This program stopped several years ago and there was a fire sale to get rid of the remaining stock. Yet I still see this listed as a benefit. In fact this was the highlighted benefit in the latest RMC showing Whit Towers' ALP boxcar. But you can't get an ALP car any more or any of the others.
Enjoy
Paul
andrechapelon$5.50/month is a lot of money
Allow me to use that so I can bring that $5.50 month in prospective..
WOW! That's cheaper then a artery clogging and fattening fast food meal.
That $5.50 can bring a lot of home and club layout visits as well as lasting friendships and needless to say its a lot healthier.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
The more that I think about this, the more I wonder why, as a model railroad hobbyist, I should feel any obligation or responsibility to financially support the NMRA.
This reminds me of my other passion - - - golf. As a member of a private country club, all members are somewhat pressured to support the USGA as well as various other organizations including caddy scholarships, local golf organizations, etc. I have to spend more in that regard for "dues" than the NMRA requires.
As I see it, the ones who really benefit from the NMRA and its standards are the manufacturers. So, IMHO, the manufacturers have the obligation and responsibility to support the NMRA, not me.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain The more that I think about this, the more I wonder why, as a model railroad hobbyist, I should feel any obligation or responsibility to financially support the NMRA. This reminds me of my other passion - - - golf. As a member of a private country club, all members are somewhat pressured to support the USGA as well as various other organizations including caddy scholarships, local golf organizations, etc. I have to spend more in that regard for "dues" than the NMRA requires. As I see it, the ones who really benefit from the NMRA and its standards are the manufacturers. So, IMHO, the manufacturers have the obligation and responsibility to support the NMRA, not me. Rich
And many of them do, with sustaining memberships and donations.
Sheldon
richhotrainAs I see it, the ones who really benefit from the NMRA and its standards are the manufacturers. So, IMHO, the manufacturers have the obligation and responsibility to support the NMRA, not me. Rich
Rich,Everything we take for granted today is because of the NMRA standards and RPs including RP25 wheels-remember the stiff rolling out of round wheels and having to buy replacement trucks from Central Valley?
Even the DCC systems is compatible because of NMRA standards covering DCC.
I can remember the time when the majority of the modelers was in the NMRA and proud of it..Also many manufacturers fought the idea od having production standards since it would raise the prices of their models.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain The more that I think about this, the more I wonder why, as a model railroad hobbyist, I should feel any obligation or responsibility to financially support the NMRA. This reminds me of my other passion - - - golf. As a member of a private country club, all members are somewhat pressured to support the USGA as well as various other organizations including caddy scholarships, local golf organizations, etc. I have to spend more in that regard for "dues" than the NMRA requires. As I see it, the ones who really benefit from the NMRA and its standards are the manufacturers. So, IMHO, the manufacturers have the obligation and responsibility to support the NMRA, not me. Rich And many of them do, with sustaining memberships and donations. Sheldon
BRAKIE richhotrain As I see it, the ones who really benefit from the NMRA and its standards are the manufacturers. So, IMHO, the manufacturers have the obligation and responsibility to support the NMRA, not me. Rich Rich,Everything we take for granted today is because of the NMRA standards and RPs including RP25 wheels-remember the stiff rolling out of round wheels and having to buy replacement trucks from Central Valley? Even the DCC systems is compatible because of NMRA standards covering DCC. I can remember the time when the majority of the modelers was in the NMRA and proud of it..Also many manufacturers fought the idea od having production standards since it would raise the prices of their models.
richhotrain As I see it, the ones who really benefit from the NMRA and its standards are the manufacturers. So, IMHO, the manufacturers have the obligation and responsibility to support the NMRA, not me. Rich
tedtedderson When I started reading this thread I though there was no way I'd join. But now I may. I like the idea of maintaining standards. This may be a tough sell though as i just lectured my wife about her shoe and makeup subscriptions. T e d
Dude, why would you do such a thing? The principle of self-interest (enlightened or otherwise) dictates that one never, ever engages in such self-defeating activities.
Andre
richhotrainAll of that may be true, but what's the point? Good for the NMRA, but that doesn't translate to me writing a check each year to support it. Rich
Look at both sides of the coin..
At the same price of a fast food meal( at $5.50 month) you get to attend your local division's mothly meetings and take in layout tours or you can buy that fast food meal gain weight and clog your arteries.
Mark B. and Ray, it's an impressive list, and I thank you for persisiting, Ray, in showing a comprehensive list of what the society offers its membership, and in many ways, the entire hobby by default.
Mark, I hadn't considered the cost of the venue which might be a university campus lecture hall, as it was in the case of the RASC Winnipeg Centre. In some cases, the venue is available free of charge, but that is not normally how it goes. For insurance purposes, if nothing else, there must be a nominal charge to establish a client/patron relationship. But some places charge $200 a night, and the membership should not be expected to continually subsidize the freeloading walk-ins who maintain that status perpetually.
In that case, charge them a nominal attendance fee, regardless of how many times they attend. I think it's too hard to maintain an accurate record of how often a non-member attends. All members will be able to show a certificate or membership indicator at the door, while those without should pay $5.
I've been a member for a while (10-15yrs). Admittedly I don't take much advantage of any of the listed "benefits". It's been a while (yrs) since I've been to a local NMRA monthly meeting.
But I have no complaints over the annual dues. It seems to be a good conduit for promotion and expansion of the hobby. The "3-strikes" rule does seem to be a little self-defeating (though I wouldn't begin to second guess the liability insurance arcana that is said to make this a requirement).
Seems to me the NMRA could do a better job of more closely looking at/defining which events *are* intended as strictly NMRA members-only benefits and which are open/public and are, at their heart, promotional.
Monthly meetings would seem (to me) an ideal "promotional" event you wouln't want to put under a 3-strikes rule. On the other hand, workshops, Masters clinics, contests, etc. would definitely be a members-only happening. I've always thought that if you can't get someone excited enough about the activity at an open meeting/meetup that they don't want to join for the increased benefits/fun/excitement....you're doing something wrong.
Aa a NMRA Division VP and DAL for a Region, I was going to do my Pro-NMRA dialogue, but Brunton, Howmus and others have said iall that needs to be said.
I joined because I want to associate with the organization that is recognized as the Model Railroading organization that started it all, and I've met a ton of great folks as a result. The people alone are worth the price of admission. Going to a NMRA function and having time to chat with the likes of Tony Koester and Jim Hediger is invaluable regarding how I approach the hobby afterward.So all of you guys that say it "ain't worth it", you should dig a bit deeper. To put it in terms of hard cold cash, I always ask for the NMRA Discount at a hobby shop. Even if they don't have one, they will usually offer up something such was the case this past weekend in Ft. Wayne IN. I saved $7 by just asking and showing my card. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that those savings can add up to the price of memebership.Have fun!Dan
I'm a 22-year member of a model railroad club, and while we certainly welcome visitors almost any time we're in the club, we would not appreciate people who come to our club week after week or month after month without joining.
We're friendly and open to strangers off the street. A member will give anyone the nickel tour, give a history of the club, what our plans are, etc., and we will do this for anyone. It doesn't matter if they live 3000 miles away (and thus would never join our club) or if they live down the street. We want to make our visitors happy.
But to have them show up repeatedly, hanging out, talking trains with the members, perhaps running trains (under supervision), using our club library, etc.? Now that's something else.
And if you think $44 or $66 per year is too expensive, you won't be joining our club where our monthly dues are $30 (or $360 per year).
Now I am not a member of the NMRA, never have been. But at one time, every member of our club was required to be an NMRA member because we had an insurance policy through them (we now have our own insurance policy).
Paul A. Cutler III
I've been a model railroader for 30 years (40+ if you count playing with the Lionel I got for Christmas when I was 3-years-old). In that 30 years I've considered joining the NMRA on several occasions, both before and after the birth of the internet, but the biggest thing that has stopped me was the lack of "local" events.
I live in a small town called New York City and travelling out to Long Island or New Jersey events means 2 or 3 hours (in each direction) via mass transit - and let's not speculate about how to get from the nearest train station to and from the venue. That also assumes you can make a one-day round trip. I was a member of the O&WRHS for several years, but couldn't make any of their meetings as the last train to Hoboken left Middletown in the middle of their evening meetings.
If these events / meetings / etc. were closer -- and by "closer" I am going to define it for myself as round-trip travel time being less than time actually spent at the event -- then I would have / would be willing to join the NMRA / rejoin the NRHS / etc. in a heartbeat. While the internet has placed information at my fingertips and allowed me to communicate with fellow enthuasts around the world, that isn't really a substitute for face-to-face human interaction.
That said, I think the big national organizations are following the same path as the brick-n-motar hobby shops. People are going to go where they can get what they want. If the local hobby shop doesn't stock paint, or styrene, or detail parts, and those are what they want, then they'll go to the one place that has all of what they want rather than going to 3 or 4 different stores. If the nationals are giving ultimatiums about membership to people on the fence, they are probably going to go where they feel welcomed and not pressured. Life is stressful enough with things we begrudgingly have to pay for (rent, electric, food, etc.).
~AJK
I have been a member since 1975. I have found that it has been a great help. I visited 3 nationals and a handful of BR conventions. I think I got my money's worth and more than that. Just think DCC, LCC and the older Standards and RP's. And they're all volunteers. Any dollar spend on NMRA is well spend. Oh, and I do live in the Netherlands!
Mykhalin I've been a model railroader for 30 years (40+ if you count playing with the Lionel I got for Christmas when I was 3-years-old). In that 30 years I've considered joining the NMRA on several occasions, both before and after the birth of the internet, but the biggest thing that has stopped me was the lack of "local" events. I live in a small town called New York City and travelling out to Long Island or New Jersey events means 2 or 3 hours (in each direction) via mass transit - and let's not speculate about how to get from the nearest train station to and from the venue. That also assumes you can make a one-day round trip. I was a member of the O&WRHS for several years, but couldn't make any of their meetings as the last train to Hoboken left Middletown in the middle of their evening meetings. If these events / meetings / etc. were closer -- and by "closer" I am going to define it for myself as round-trip travel time being less than time actually spent at the event -- then I would have / would be willing to join the NMRA / rejoin the NRHS / etc. in a heartbeat. While the internet has placed information at my fingertips and allowed me to communicate with fellow enthuasts around the world, that isn't really a substitute for face-to-face human interaction. That said, I think the big national organizations are following the same path as the brick-n-motar hobby shops. People are going to go where they can get what they want. If the local hobby shop doesn't stock paint, or styrene, or detail parts, and those are what they want, then they'll go to the one place that has all of what they want rather than going to 3 or 4 different stores. If the nationals are giving ultimatiums about membership to people on the fence, they are probably going to go where they feel welcomed and not pressured. Life is stressful enough with things we begrudgingly have to pay for (rent, electric, food, etc.). ~AJK
I will preface this by saying that I am not an NRMA member myself. Reason being goes along with what many people have said: small town, lack of area events, etc. I have one additional one: I don't drive by choice. (Not comfortable behind the wheel.)
Reason I decided to chime in is this: My town has a local art center that offers classes for both adults and children as outreach. When those classes are offered, they have reduced rates for members of the organization. But they DO allow non-members to participate for the additional cost.
While I don't know whether this increases their membership or not (I am usually too busy to attend the classes), they have kept going for many years with this idea. The art shows that they host are even open to the general public. (They do have a jar for donations as well.)
Our Community College even has Community Outreach events where they use their bus to transport community members to various events around the region. The cost is equal for anyone attending. They do not require the people to have gone to the college to participate in those events. (I participated in one of these events many years ago and was able to take a very enjoyable dinner train trip on an ex-Milwaukee line as a result.)
ATLANTIC CENTRAL In this case, return on investment is strickly subjective. If you don't feel the NMRA offers any value fine, but $60 in this economy is pocket change, especially compared to the general costs in this hobby - $600 locomotives, $100 passenger cars, $60 RTR freight cars, $100 sound decoders for DCC, etc. So would you re-join if it was $30? $10? From the sound of your post in the other thread on this topic, no you would not. So it's not really the money is it? Sheldon
In this case, return on investment is strickly subjective. If you don't feel the NMRA offers any value fine, but $60 in this economy is pocket change, especially compared to the general costs in this hobby - $600 locomotives, $100 passenger cars, $60 RTR freight cars, $100 sound decoders for DCC, etc.
So would you re-join if it was $30? $10? From the sound of your post in the other thread on this topic, no you would not. So it's not really the money is it?
Sheldon, to answer your question, no I wouldn't join if the cost was $5. $60? THAT is just ridiculous.
No, it's not really the money. I don't think I ever said it was. I, like everyone else, looks at the value and what you get for your money. To me, the NMRA ain't worth the money.
The day that I spend that kind of money that you mentioned on model trains, I'll have my head examined. Unless, of course, it's Sn3...
Chuck - Modeling in HO scale and anything narrow gauge
FRRYKidMy town has a local art center that offers classes for both adults and children as outreach. When those classes are offered, they have reduced rates for members of the organization. But they DO allow non-members to participate for the additional cost.
I think some of you are confusing Membership Meets/Meetings, with public events. The NMRA Divisions and Regions still can and do put on public events such as Train Shows. etc. Difference is those activities have to be billed as "Public" events and are a bit different from the Meets for the membership. We also can be part of other groups events with no problem. My Division has a couple tables at 3 train shows every year where we do a "Modeler's Corner". Several of our members will be at the table working on projects, answering questions, and encouraging the hobby to the general public. We have also put on "Public" events (Meets) where the general public can see what we do at our Meets and ask questions about the hobby and/or the NMRA.
The 3 visit rule is about the member meetings that many divisions do monthly. It is to disinvite those who are trying to milk the system and get the benefits of membership for free. Again, very few organizations can have "Members" who are not actually members. This becomes an insurance problem as the first thing they will want to see is a list of who attended the event to check it out should there be a claim.
Actually, I felt worse hearing about the C&NW Historical Society than the NMRA when the OP first posted this thread. I devote a portion of my layout to the C&NW, a grand old road name here in Chicago, but now a fallen flag. Sad to hear that the historical society is feeling some old age pains.
andrechapelon $5.50/month is a lot of money (it's $66/year if you get the magazine, $44 if you don't)? That's about 18 cents/ day. Without the magazine, it 's about 12 cents/day. I probably spend more money than that each year waiting for the water to get hot at the shower head. EDIT: Apparently I'm a "victim" of premature posting as I decided to run the numbers and discovered that the above sentence is a bit hyperbolic. Actually, the cost is less than a tenth of that. Nonetheless 18 cents/day isn't going break the bank. Andre
$5.50/month is a lot of money (it's $66/year if you get the magazine, $44 if you don't)? That's about 18 cents/ day. Without the magazine, it 's about 12 cents/day.
I probably spend more money than that each year waiting for the water to get hot at the shower head.
EDIT: Apparently I'm a "victim" of premature posting as I decided to run the numbers and discovered that the above sentence is a bit hyperbolic. Actually, the cost is less than a tenth of that. Nonetheless 18 cents/day isn't going break the bank.
I agree with Mykhalin. The model of “your either wit us or agin us” has been tried by other organizations and even companies with products. It does not sell well.
I don't expect to get much for nothing, and never have. I think I have been to one NMRA event in my lifetime, and that was the National Show when it was in Atlanta a few years ago. If I remember right, I gladly paid to get into that. So, based on my attendance patterns (been around the hobby some 45 of my 54 years, with about a 10 year hiatus), that will not justify the yearly expense nor will I feel the effects of this change.
The other thing I think we can put to rest is if there were no standards there would be chaos because every manufacturer would be out there producing stuff that was incompatible with everybody else. Does anyone think that if Shifting Sands of Omaha announced their new Gevo, that would only run on their track and only lash up to their freight cars that enough people would (knowingly) buy it to keep them in business? To one degree or another MTH thought that was going to fly with DCS and the sales of that have not exactly been a compelling model for being proprietary or incompatible with the rest of the world.
I came close to joining the NMRA a couple of times, “just because.” In the end, I never saw the value to me. I don't approach the hobby as a social thing (it is an outlet for me), I'm not a meeting person (I attend enough in my job), and very rarely attend events. Telling me “join, or you can't ever attend more than three….ever” is not going to move me. But, perhaps I am far from typical and may be the toughest case to sell. Then again, I am also not likely to be a stowaway at monthly meetings, so it all may be a moot point down there at Green Acres.
- Mark
I have been reading this topic over the past two evenings. I was a Regional Board Officer for 5 years. I remember the original 'fight' about membership/insurance quite well. It all comes down to Liability Insurance - The NMRA was told by the insurance carrier that everyone attending a National/Region/Division meeting must be a paid up, card carrying NMRA member. And every other carrier basically said the same.
National Conventions, Regional Conventions, and Divisional Conventions are 'member only' functions. That said, if your local Divisions has a train show(mine has a spring/fall train show), that is open to the public. The contest and actual 'meeting' are for paid up members only. One of our Divisions has a monthly meeting, with clinics - They are for members only(as are the layout tours). The NMRA insurace covers liability issues. If you think liability insurance is cheap, get a quote from a provider for a weekend event(many venues now require documentation that you have liability insurance, or will provide it on a one time event for a rather hefty price). This is not the old days! In the state where I live, even though the local Division/Region are incorperated as a non-profit entity - The 'officers' can be sued for medical costs from an injury at an event. Insurance is madatory. I would have resigned from my position as a Region Officer if My family and home were left exposed due to someone else's neglect.
AMA membership($58/year) is required at most club flying fields, as the AMA has insurance built into the membership cost(just like the NMRA). So, this is not just an NMRA 'thing'.
Our local gun club provides insurance through the NRA for the indoor/outdoor ranges. There is 'value' to membership.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin