I have two BLI SW7s and they are pitiful performers. They stall out when passing over the insulated frogs of my Atlas #6 turnouts. The are prone to derailing. Most annoying is their habit of causing a shutdown when I reverse directions and begin to accelerated. When switching cars how often do you suppose I am changing directions? It happens sporadically and there seems to be no rhyme nor reason for it. I would guess it happens about 50% of the time.
I have a DCC layout. Appearance is a distant second to performance. I don't care about roadname since I will paint over the shell. Sound would be nice but not necessary. Most important it needs to be able to maintain power when passing over the insulated frogs in my yard. It is way too big to consider retrofitting powered frogs.
Just my opinion, but locomotives that are called "switchers" are more often found in industrial service than switching major yards. The N&W inherited some through mergers, but they never bought any switcher types. Use a full size locomotive. Also since your DCC, put a Keep Alive decoder in it to take care of your frog issues.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
I have a Proto S1, a Proto SW8, an Athearn Baldwin S12 and a Proto H10-44. The SW8 is very light and came with traction tires on one axle, so it occasionally will stall on a frog. The SW8 and H10-44 came with factory sound. I had a LokSound decoder installed in the S1, and one of these days I'll get around to putting sound in the S12. I don't have keep-alive in any of them. When any of them stall repeatedly, it's time to clean the track.
All of these run well and can pull whatever they need to.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I have some Kato NW2s. They've been converted to HOn3, but they've always performed well.They are very heavy, with the weight filling the shell and the motor embedded between the frame halves (they are designed like a N loco and this really helps).
On the other hand, all my frogs are powered. Keep in mind that if your loco doesn't have good contact with both rails, despite short loco and truck wheelbases, if the electricity can't flow, your loco won't go. Carl425's suggestion to use a larger loco is a good workaround.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
A Life Like P2K(EMD and Alco),Atlas(Alco),Walthers(SW1,P2K or FM 10-44) or the older Athearn BB (SW7,S12,SW1500) or their RTR SW1500 are all top line switchers. Bowser makes a sweet Baldwin switcher as well.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
carl425 Just my opinion, but locomotives that are called "switchers" are more often found in industrial service than switching major yards. The N&W inherited some through mergers, but they never bought any switcher types. Use a full size locomotive. Also since your DCC, put a Keep Alive decoder in it to take care of your frog issues.
All major railroads including the N&W used switchers in their yard since these switchers was designed and built to replae steam switch engines...N&W favored Alco's T-5 switcher.
Even today you will find SW1500s and MP15s working the yards on major railroads.
Rather than ditching the BLI locos, it may be worth the effort to tune them up. There could be bad connections, broken wires, excess lubrication, dirty wheels or other issues interfering with their electrical pickup. A keep-alive capacitor unit like those available from TCS or Soundtraxx could help prevent stalling (assuming there's enough space inside the loco for one to fit).
Derailing could be related to issues with the track, out-of-gauge wheels, or trucks not turning or rocking due to various problems that can be corrected (casting flash, wires hanging up, misaligned detail parts, etc.).
If you're experiencing stalling or derailing on Atlas #6 frogs, have you filed the frogs down so they're flush with the surrounding rails? The castings are often out of alignment with the rest of the turnout, and a mill file can correct the situation. Trucks bumping over frogs can exacerbate stalling problems. A diesel with eight-wheel pickup shouldn't stall on Atlas #6 frogs, as at least one truck should be off the frog at all times. You could have continuity issues affecting the closure rails or rails diverging from the frog on one or more turnouts. Have you checked for continuity with a meter?
Rob Spangler
BRAKIEAll major railroads including the N&W used switchers in their yard since these switchers was designed and built to replae steam switch engines...N&W favored Alco's T-5 switcher.
"Favored" is a bit generous. The large majority of switchers on the N&W came from NKP and WAB. The N&W only made one purchase of diesel "switchers". They bought 40 T-6's (not T-5) in 1959. They were used primarily at Lambert's Point and Portsmouth Ohio. In the yards along the line like Crewe, Shaffers Crossing, Bluefield and Williamson switching work was done with road engines - usually in multiples.
And technically, since the "T" stands for "transfer" you can sort of make the case that these aren't switchers.
Hi carl425,
My time, the 70's, 80's, on the B&OCT, used Alco S4, EMD SW900, SW9, NW2, some MU capable, were used extensively for switching, industrial and transfer service.
Rich
wp8thsub Rather than ditching the BLI locos, it may be worth the effort to tune them up. There could be bad connections, broken wires, excess lubrication, dirty wheels or other issues interfering with their electrical pickup. A keep-alive capacitor unit like those available from TCS or Soundtraxx could help prevent stalling (assuming there's enough space inside the loco for one to fit). Derailing could be related to issues with the track, out-of-gauge wheels, or trucks not turning or rocking due to various problems that can be corrected (casting flash, wires hanging up, misaligned detail parts, etc.). If you're experiencing stalling or derailing on Atlas #6 frogs, have you filed the frogs down so they're flush with the surrounding rails? The castings are often out of alignment with the rest of the turnout, and a mill file can correct the situation. Trucks bumping over frogs can exacerbate stalling problems. A diesel with eight-wheel pickup shouldn't stall on Atlas #6 frogs, as at least one truck should be off the frog at all times. You could have continuity issues affecting the closure rails or rails diverging from the frog on one or more turnouts. Have you checked for continuity with a meter?
The Keep Alive is one option I will look into. That might solve the most irritating problem.
I've done about all the tuning up I can do with these. The wheels have been checked for gauge and cleaned repeatedly as has the track were they are stalling. The only way to keep the locos from stalling out at the frogs is to run them with enough speed so that momentum takes them over the dead spot and that just isn't a realistic way to to yard switching.
As for the derailments, if lots of locos and/or rolling stock are derailing at the same spot, the problem is probably the track. If one (or in this case two) locos are derailing in multiple spots, the problem is probably in the loco. There trucks have lots up and down play in them and there just doesn't seem to be enough weight on them. There's not much room to add weight inside the shell either.
Did these come with axles with traction tires and also ones without? With traction tires you're removing a good chunk of your pickup footprint. If they came with optional non-traction tire wheelsets, put those in. No, it won;t pull as much, but the electrical pickup will be greatly improved. Or if you always run them together, install jumpers between the track pickups, so if one hits a dead spot the other one will still be picking up power and pass it on.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I'm modeling in Nscale and by the way switcher are short wheel base.
When I started in Nscale, I used Peco insulated frog in code 80; stalling on the frog was by this time.....the rule.
I had on this time a big yard whith a twelve yard track ladder, and a lot of frustration because of stalling locomotives.
The frustation was so big, I was on the point to jump to HO, but a friend of me used at the same time the new coming Peco code 55 whith the electrofog turnouts; I made a try whith one of my stalling loco (a 0-4-0 Atlas switcher) and she was running like a charm; a couple day later I ordered electrofrog turnout, retrofitted the yard and still use it whithout no more trouble. The cost was effective, but the happinness to see running my locomotives so well was a real enchantement
I think whith short wheel base locomotives, steam or diesels, running at small speed, from Z to O scale, you MUST use powered frog for running whithout trouble and frustration.
If You have a lot of turnouts to change, why not try to use a Fastrack jig to build nearly electrical bullet proof turnout; if you do this step, buy a crossover jig because you can build a turnout but also a crossover whith the same jig and a point and frog tools n°12 to use whith any number of turnout.
My Maclau River is largely inspired by the N&W and my switcher are inspired by this company.I still use my fleet of 0-4-0 Atlas switcher but repowered whith a micromo Faulhaber motor whith a gearhead of 4.1 and from a few time whith Bachmann slopped tender; the others are Walthers Life Like 0-8-0 and two mallets from the first run of the Walthers Life Like Y2-Y3 2-8-8-2; they look quiet well like the Z1 on the N&W; they were poor puller on mainline, but whith their around 13 cars poor pulling power thy are good switcher, the tender are short USRA from Bachmann and they all run on powered frog, from Peco code 55 for the older one and Fastrack for the new one from 2007 on my layout.
I firmly beleive it's the best thing you can do; change the turnouts to powered frog turnouts, even whith Dcc you will have a better running layout
I have an Athearn RTR SW1500, which runs great on DC. It is DCC ready, and is equipped with a quick plug. The details are great for the price. There is an undecorated version, and Athearn also offers an SW1000 which is the same underneath. I would highly recommend the Athearn RTR SW1500 or SW1000.
rrinker Did these come with axles with traction tires and also ones without? With traction tires you're removing a good chunk of your pickup footprint. If they came with optional non-traction tire wheelsets, put those in. No, it won;t pull as much, but the electrical pickup will be greatly improved. Or if you always run them together, install jumpers between the track pickups, so if one hits a dead spot the other one will still be picking up power and pass it on. --Randy
To answer your first question, no they do not have traction tires. As far as I can tell, all eight wheels are designed to pick up power. One of the tests I run is to turn the bell on when the loco is stationary and then lift one truck and then the other. The bell remains on constantly when I raise up either truck. The problem comes when the loco is moving. The wheelbase is just long enough to bridge the insulated frog of an Atlas #6 turnout. The front axle of the leading truck and the rear axle of the trailing truck will both be on powered track. However when that happens, if the loco is moving at switching speed, it will stop dead. If it is moving a little faster, it might coast through that position. Once I have both axles from either truck on powered track, it keeps moving even if the other has both axles in the dead zone although I will see a hesitation when it goes over the frog. If I position it by hand so that only one axle from each truck is on powered track. It's completely dead.
Although the Keep Alive option looks interesting I've lifted the shell to see how daunting a task it would be. The decoder has a four wire plug attached to the end of it and those wires connect to another small board under the roof of the cab. I assume the red and black wires are for engine power and the other two control the headlights. I haven't looked at what capaciter would be appropriate for BLI's SW7. If it's something that can just be plugged in, that would be a lot more appealing than if I have to start soldering. My soldering skills are not exactly top drawer.
Perhaps it's not the wheels themselves that are having electrical pickup issues, but the pickups/frame that contacts the wheels.
Does it stall on both trucks, going both directions? ( engine turned around, to test left/right sides)
What are you using to switch the turnout? Perhaps there is a way to juice that frog as well.
Jecorbett,
You might want to take a look at this old thread on the subject of the BLI SW7, some tips and maybe a fix for You. There is a how to PDF for it....but I can't find it now and I thought I saved it. I did it to mine sometime ago and it improved quite a lot. One of the big reason's for it having some of the problem's, is a fact that it is a very light engine...but really no place to add weight.
Read this thread. BLI SW7 Stalls:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/143212.aspx #1592171
Good Luck!
Frank
TomLutman Perhaps it's not the wheels themselves that are having electrical pickup issues, but the pickups/frame that contacts the wheels. Does it stall on both trucks, going both directions? ( engine turned around, to test left/right sides) What are you using to switch the turnout? Perhaps there is a way to juice that frog as well.
Yes, it stalls in both directions. Since only one rail has a dead spot at the frogs, I would expect I'm drawing power from all four wheels on the opposite side. The problem is when only two of the four wheels on the frog rail are in a power zone. That's when I get a hesitation and it stops completely if I am moving at swithing speeds. It always stops at the point where one wheel from each truck is in the insulated zone.
I've done tests which tell me both trucks are powered. With the loco stationary and the bell turned on, the bell rings continually if I lift either truck off the rails. When the loco hits the dead spot with one axle from each truck in the dead zone, everything shuts off. Motor, lights, sound.
Atlas turnouts can be modified to power the frogs but as I said in the OP, that is way too much retrofitting for me to even consider that option. I assume they would work something like the Walthers turnouts which have a powered frog but the rails have to be insulated on the diverging ends to prevent a short. I would be more inclinded to just use a road switcher as a yard switcher if I can't find a workable solution for the shorter locos.
From your description of how it stalls I wonder if all axles are picking up power and conducting it from the rails to the decoder. You might try;
As other have suggested there may be continuity issues in the turnouts. Check all segments of rail to be sure they are all getting power.
But if you decide to get a new switcher, I can highly recommend the Baldwin S-12 and the EMD VO 1000, both by Bowser (formerly Stewart Models). They are fairly heavy with good pick up and very smooth runners even at low speeds.
What made Altas turnouts bulletproof for me (I dropped wires to power the frogs but never hooked them up) was to have feeders on all 3 legs. All my locos, of all sizes, would run through on step 1 with no stalls and not even a headlight flicker. So I never ended up hooking up the frog power.
I share your issues with SD 7 BLI Loco. I have a new SP SD 7 Black Widow, great detailand sound, but very sensitive on my layout not just frog issues on the points. I also use Atlas snap swotches. My BLI decoder does have the capacitor on it, so I under cut at the shorting point so the wheels do contact the crossing rail with opposite polarity. The trucks are larger being 6 axles. I sent mine unit back to BLI under warranty to check it out. I just received my Genesis SD70ACe Catepiller demo which is much larger length and truck wheel size. I modified points for all units I have. Mostly I run SD-35s Kato (which work the best) , also SW1500s. My BLI unit stopped constantly even on straights.
Marty
Marty www.pbase.com/Hejhog
you tube/martyHejhog1
For the "intermitancy", I would recommend working very hard at getting some sort of keep-alive in the existing locos. It might likely require some top quality mechanical fiddling and soldering. Them's the breaks.
I wonder if there's any switcher that will reliably get through insulated frogs. Installing them was an unfortunate decision, but I understand the water has passed under that bridge.
Right now, the switcher that I would choose would be the Atlas Alco S-2. It comes with great sound (as does the current Bowser Baldwin). But it's got a cast metal frame, so it weighs more than the Bowser. And we all know what weight will do in a switcher. If you don't need/want sound, I'd also consider the latest Walthers SW1. It, too, has a cast metal frame. It appears very easy to convert to DCC--a drop in TCS decoder.
But I do keep recalling the intermitancy. And it gets me thinking that ANY switcher on this layout would need keep-alive. So there's gonna be some work involved.
BUT, I will mention that I have two switchers that I run back-to-back. And I have them permanently wired together. SIXTEEN WHEEL PICKUP. They/it NEVER stalls. And they pull nicely, too.
Two of the Atlas Alcos permanently back-to-back (wired together, or course) would be mighty sweet. They'd pull well, and sound great.
Ed
jecorbettI've done about all the tuning up I can do with these.
Just to make sure - have you checked every wiring connection to be certain it's making proper contact, and every wire itself to ensure it's not broken inside the insulation somewhere? If there are any connections with plastic clips, have you removed the plastic and soldered the joints? Have you cleaned all the contact surfaces inside the trucks (e.g. axle bearings) that could be fouled with oxidation or lubrication?
Your descriptions are increasingly sounding like bad wiring between the trucks and decoder and/or electrical contact issues other than with the treads of the wheels themselves.
Interesting problem, as my first response was going to be to recommend the BLI NW-2/SW-7. I have two, and they're two of the best running engines I've ever had.
On a previous layout, I tried using a couple of Atlas #6 turnouts, but took them out because of the 'dead frog' and derailment problems. I use Kato Unitrack with their #6 turnouts and the engines work fine. Before giving up on the engines, I would try them on someone else's layout to see how they run.
wp8thsub jecorbett I've done about all the tuning up I can do with these. Just to make sure - have you checked every wiring connection to be certain it's making proper contact, and every wire itself to ensure it's not broken inside the insulation somewhere? If there are any connections with plastic clips, have you removed the plastic and soldered the joints? Have you cleaned all the contact surfaces inside the trucks (e.g. axle bearings) that could be fouled with oxidation or lubrication? Your descriptions are increasingly sounding like bad wiring between the trucks and decoder and/or electrical contact issues other than with the treads of the wheels themselves.
jecorbett I've done about all the tuning up I can do with these.
It would seem strange to me that too identical locos would both have the same bad wiring and show exactly the same symptoms. They stall out when bridging the insulated frogs of my Atlas #6 turnouts when passing over them at switching speed. If passing over them at higher speed, that will hesitate when passing over the frogs. It happens everytime.
wjstix Interesting problem, as my first response was going to be to recommend the BLI NW-2/SW-7. I have two, and they're two of the best running engines I've ever had. On a previous layout, I tried using a couple of Atlas #6 turnouts, but took them out because of the 'dead frog' and derailment problems. I use Kato Unitrack with their #6 turnouts and the engines work fine. Before giving up on the engines, I would try them on someone else's layout to see how they run.
As I pointed out in the OP. Replacing or modifying the turnouts is not an option. There are too many of them and it would cost way too much in terms of time and expense to do that. I have a 12 track double ended yard and two industrial beltlines that parallel the double track mainline on either side of it. Each of those beltlines has numerous industrial spurs. On top of that I have a five track stub end coach yard. Without even counting them, it is probably about 50 turnouts that would need to be replaced. Powering the frogs is going to require tearing up much of what I have. I might as well blow it up and start over.
What I need are switch engines that aren't going to stall passing over an insulated frog. That means modifying the two switchers I have or replacing them. The Keep Alive capacitor might be an opition for modifying them. If not, the cheapest solution is going to be replacing them.
With two switch engines with a short wheelbase having the same issue, I see a couple options:
1. Hardware the two together. Bigger wheelbase, more power pickup.
2. Replace with a roadswitcher set. Bigger wheelbase.
3. Modify the switchers to have keep-alive.
My preference is in the order as I presented them. I would also look at other options, but you have stated they are not an option. (Powering frogs, replacing turnouts.... Not even going to mention past this, as you stated not an option here more than once.)
I just feel that replacing with another short wheelbase loco will not help here... Unless these two you currently have both have the pickup issue in the wiring/contacts (possible, but not the most likely....) it is appearing to be a track issue. Another unit with the same size wheelbase just does not seem like a viable option here to me.
If you use both together, just add jumpers between them, making them much more likely to work over the dead spots, as now you have a much larger wheelbase, so you should not have the issue you here are having.
Replacing with a roadswitcher will provide a larger wheelbase, avoiding the issue.
Keep alive option is an option, but with that many frogs, depending on speed, I am not sure it will solve enough of the problem, or if you even can add it to the stock decoder installed already... Someone else may have a better answer on this one.
Each of these will cost something though, so..... Which would you rather spend on, time and little materials to hard wire, money on replacing with larger wheelbase loco's, or time and money for keep alive?
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
ricktrains4824 With two switch engines with a short wheelbase having the same issue, I see a couple options: 1. Hardware the two together. Bigger wheelbase, more power pickup. 2. Replace with a roadswitcher set. Bigger wheelbase. 3. Modify the switchers to have keep-alive. My preference is in the order as I presented them. I would also look at other options, but you have stated they are not an option. (Powering frogs, replacing turnouts.... Not even going to mention past this, as you stated not an option here more than once.) I just feel that replacing with another short wheelbase loco will not help here... Unless these two you currently have both have the pickup issue in the wiring/contacts (possible, but not the most likely....) it is appearing to be a track issue. Another unit with the same size wheelbase just does not seem like a viable option here to me. If you use both together, just add jumpers between them, making them much more likely to work over the dead spots, as now you have a much larger wheelbase, so you should not have the issue you here are having. Replacing with a roadswitcher will provide a larger wheelbase, avoiding the issue. Keep alive option is an option, but with that many frogs, depending on speed, I am not sure it will solve enough of the problem, or if you even can add it to the stock decoder installed already... Someone else may have a better answer on this one. Each of these will cost something though, so..... Which would you rather spend on, time and little materials to hard wire, money on replacing with larger wheelbase loco's, or time and money for keep alive?
I have a very large (by MR standards) yard and my operating scheme calls for the two switchers to work independently on opposite ends of the yard. While I am a lone wolf operator and would never have both working at the same time, I like the idea of having one on each end of the yard to sort trains in opposite directions. Occassionally I have a complex switching maneuver in which having two switchers saves the trouble of doing a runaround move the length of a sizeable yard. For example, I have a daily milk train that drops a block of milk cars for the dairy processing plant which has a facing point spur. I can have one switcher take the block off the front of the milk train and park it on a clear track. The switcher at the opposite end can then shove those cars into the facing point spur.
So that leaves us with options 2 & 3. Keep alive would be my preference. I currently have an e-mail in to TCS tech support to find out if they either have a standalone capacitor or a replacement decoder with keep alive that I can install in these engines. If that turns out not to be an option, I have several Bachmann GP7s which could be pressed into duty as yard switchers if need be. I'm not sure how prototypical that would be in 1956, but it might be my only option. Having only recently begun full fledged operations, I find making up and breaking up trains to be a lot of fun but that fun is somewhat diminished when the equipment doesn't work the way it is supposed to.
I run switchers and feel your pain. At least sound is not a requirement, because there are very few switchers with onboard sound that do not have problems running over unpowered frogs....not just Atlas turnouts either, IMO.
My experience says the yellow/red box Atlas S series switchers have the best electrical pickup of any switcher, not to mention being really heavy. I think converting them to DCC can be a project, but not too difficult with plenty of info on the net for guidance.
On second thought, the Athearn switchers I owned were pretty reliable over Atlas turnouts too.
- Douglas