A little twist on the common topic of the demise of the local hobby shop. After reading the online retailer thread, I've concluded that there are a number of hobby shops that have OPENED for business (online) at the same time so many others (brick and mortar) have closed.
So does it really matter what form the hobby shop takes as long as hobbiests can get what they want?
Isn't it wonderful that so many of these new businesses are thriving and making a living for themselves and their families?
Perhaps this is an opportunity to spin the topic to a more positive view.
- Douglas
So far it has worked for me better to have some good online shops vs. LHS's, the latter which more often than not, had fewer choices and charged higher prices. I'm good with the positive spin.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I buy 95% online, I'm not concerned about "needing to hold xyz in my hands" before purchasing, as I only purchase from store with a favorable return policy.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
This simply supports something I said on a thread here many months ago. I've seen the trend for quite some time working in large scale online retail. As with so many other things in our world, conditions and circumstances around our hobby and with the hobby itself are changing. It's not only the LHS's disappearing, but also the little local hardware stores, auto parts, local gun shops, the list goes on...all slowly giving way to the big online retailers. Can't say that I like the changes...tactile contact with a possible puchase has always been important to me...but I realize and understand the changes.
I like MB Klein...especially. A great supplier who employs nearly 80 people and appears to be thriving.
Mark H
Modeling in HO...Reading and Conrail together in an alternate history.
Yes, I've probably spent more buying online and at shows rather than at my LHS. The sad part about losing the LHS' is that they are the ones to put the merchandise front and center for new people to see and get hooked on, the topic of another recent thread on getting new people into the hobby. A train running laps in a shop window attracts a lot of eyes from young and old.
Kind of a mixed bag, I think.
Have fun,
Richard
crhostler61 This simply supports something I said on a thread here many months ago. I've seen the trend for quite some time working in large scale online retail. As with so many other things in our world, conditions and circumstances around our hobby and with the hobby itself are changing. It's not only the LHS's disappearing, but also the little local hardware stores, auto parts, local gun shops, the list goes on...all slowly giving way to the big online retailers. Can't say that I like the changes...tactile contact with a possible puchase has always been important to me...but I realize and understand the changes. I like MB Klein...especially. A great supplier who employs nearly 80 people and appears to be thriving. Mark H
Hmm...I haven't seen that yet, I live in a small and very stagnant area. Might be a new trend starting in more populated places.
Brick and Mortar LHS do one big thing that online "hobby shops" can't, and never will do. LHS shows people available products, and some have a layout in the store. I am sure that LHS are in the top 3 reasons people get into model railroading.
You have to search for online "hobby shops," and when you do "find" one, you usually have to know what you want to easily navigate the website. It is not easy to "just look" in an online hobby shop. In a brick and mortar LHS people can easily go in and look. I think a LHS is a lot more impressive than an online hobby shop. I would much rather go to a brick and mortar hobby shop. Plus, no shipping cost, and you get what you want immediately (if in stock). But online "hobby shops" also have items out of stock, and yes it is cheaper, but what about shipping cost?
The only reason an online "hobby shop" is good is if you want something specific or you don't have an LHS.
There are "brick and Mortar" hobby shops that sell online that we can buy from. Caboose, Trainmaster, First Hobby, all have stores full of trains. I seriously doubt that any of the hobby online dot coms that DON'T have a storefront actually have a warehouse full of trains, they just convey the same info from Walthers and Horizon and when you order it from them, they order it for you and re-ship it to you (sometimes in the same box).
Mine doesn't move.......it's at the station!!!
cowman Yes, I've probably spent more buying online and at shows rather than at my LHS. The sad part about losing the LHS' is that they are the ones to put the merchandise front and center for new people to see and get hooked on, the topic of another recent thread on getting new people into the hobby. A train running laps in a shop window attracts a lot of eyes from young and old. Kind of a mixed bag, I think. Have fun, Richard
Richard, you said it best.
With the demise of the LHS, I miss the oportunity to look, see, and feel stuff. It was what convinced me to enter the hobby. How else are you going to get motivated to start out as a model railroader?
Rich
Alton Junction
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
Some of the better on line shops started life as a mail order shop and even advertised in MR and other modeling magazines so,these shops revolved with the changing times.
If there was a hobby shop in town he would get 90% of my business but,as it is the closest is a 50 mile round trip..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
richhotrainWith the demise of the LHS, I miss the oportunity to look, see, and feel stuff. Rich
Don't forget the younger generation are a totally differen't bird than us. They do everything with their "precious" smart phones and laptops - mostly online including shopping. There have been some reports on how business are making large scale changes to reach these people to market and sell them products. They don't need to be there in person to look, see and feel stuff. They do things differently that we do, so the demise of B&M stores doesn't bother them like it does the older generation. We sound like bunch of crotchity old men in rocking chairs on creaky porches in this forum - but in reality, times are a changin. Time to move on and stop living in the past.
Wasn't this topic about online shopping rather than the demise of the LHS?
Some of the earliest online only places had no clue. If you go back about 15 years or so in MR there was one that used to have a full page ad every month. They dried up pretty quick. In those days, some people though just putting their stuff on the internet was a guaranteed success. Well, you still have to have product, and ship it out in a timely fashion, or people will start passing you by. And the other factor witht he speed of the internet - make too many mistakes and word gets out FAST and not only will you not have repeat customers, many of those potential new customers will be steered away.
Then you have the old style B&M stores that actually 'got it' - Klein, Caboose. Still have physical locations you can walk into and browse if you are in the area, but by going internet they ALSO expanded their territory.
The online-only ones that don;t actually have stock - pretty easy to tell. If their product list is essentially the Walthers catalog - they have nothing, they simply order and maybe even drop ship your stuff from Walthers/ The really good places like Klein's have a true real-time inventory system on their web site, so no surprises when your box of stuff comes missing a few items and a note syaing "this is backordered". This is probably the #1 reason I do most of my business with Klein. If their inventory says 0, and I really need something, I'll check elsewhere. Sometimes you can find items for a slightly lower price, but factor in shipping, and also if buying more than one thing, item A might be cheaper elsewhere, but item B is cheaper at Klein. It usually averages out. I also tend to reference Klein's price when looking at items on ebay - there have been planety of times I've passed up bidding because the price plus shipping on eBay is more than price plus shipping at Klein.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
While I will agree that MB Kleins certainly is one of the best online venders, they still do have a short-coming - sometimes they don't get enough of a popular product and buyers can be out in the cold if they rely on them. They do have a feature that aids buyers - the advanced notification system - to let you know when your product of interest is in-stock. The last time I tried to use it, it failed completely and I missed out on an important item. Others have commented that notification system failed for them too. Here is the rub, they don't take pre-orders so if they don't order enough - customers loose out like I did. Will I keep using MB Kleins? And while they are one of the better online dealers, they still could improve things.
Only reason that doesn;t bother me is I have yet to buy anything on pre-order. Yet I own several each of items that were sold out within days of release, mainly because of preorders and only ver few extras ever being made. As I mentioned in anotehr thread, so many of the things I have, I got from eBay - and a few months after the latest and greated "limited run, preorder now to get one" item sells out, suddenly they are all over eBay. Be patient and you can get them for a good discount on the original price, too. For example, I got a long sold out Atlas Gold Series Trainmaster for under $100. That's less than the MSRP for the Silver series version. Picked up a sound version of the original PCM (not the later BLI) Reading T-1 for the price of the non-sound ones, too. Even my first one, I didn;t preorder or reserve - a local dealer, who has a table at mst of the train shows around here, including Timonium, got them in and let me know.
I have a local hobby shop, but I don't visit it, because nothing is restocked, everything is list price, and the selection is meager. It's also given a lot of its space to other hobbies, mainly R/C and rockets.
If I didn't buy from online and ebay, I couldn't afford this hobby at all.
I'd just like to add that knowing a business has been in business for 20+ years is not a draw for me either. All that tells me is that there is a lot of operating overhead they may or may not have accumulated, and that their business model is possibly outdated.
Julian
Modeling Pre-WP merger UP (1974-81)
Exciting to see the world evolve if you have been around long enough.
Remember, many of us as kids played in sandboxes. Today, kids sit outside the sandbox and play with their smatphone.
My grandchildren around five or six do very well with one.
People will adapt. No fear.
I went totally online for the hobby and a lot of other shopping via Amazon who also sell train products with free shipping.
Many are on Facebook also. That gets to some modelers.
Bachmann has a FB page you do not need FB to see. No idea about other companies.
A simple Google search can find you a lot of info on just about anything.
Many of my friends I see a lot are on FB, including local businesses, for local stuff and a lot of info is swapped.
Digital age folks.
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Rise and fall of local hobby shop from retailer list in Model Railroader
Year number of shops
Sep 1938 14 first list
Dec 1938 15
Dec 1939 43
Dec 1940 60
Dec 1945 98
Dec 1950 277
Dec 1955 292
Dec 1960 248
Dec 1965 288
Dec 1970 330
Dec 1975 532
Dec 1980 582
Dec 1985 622
Dec 1990 706
Dec 1995 590
Dec 2000 496
Dec 2005 420
Dec 2010 278
Dec 2015 178
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When I was a kid in the 1950-mid 60's I think most kids were introduced to trains by Christmas displays in Department Stores and their Christmas toy catalogs..
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
Just a note, MB Klien has lowered their shipping cost by shipping USPS if requested, for those of us that plan ahead, the savings are great and will have me going there more.
Part of that surge in the 90's was I bet a lot of online shops that never lasted - it was a time when anyone thought all they had to do was get a web site and take orders. There were several that even had full page ads in MR.
Then you had the ones that, as they joined the internet age, realized that instead of paying MR for the 4 to 6 page ads they used to run (Standard Hobby, Trainworld, Charles Ro, etc - look even as recently as 2004 or so), they could simply pay MR for a much smaller ad and just point to their web site where they could list even more items than they could in those 4-6 page ads. ANd save a lot of money on advertising costs. Look through some issues from that era, sure there were 150+ pages in the magazine - but there were also at least half a dozen advertisers that ran multiple full page ads.
Well, I'd guess we all acknowlege the changes that have and continue to occur, but indeed it is interesting to step back a bit and consider the changes. For me, I've been in and out of the hobby for significant periods of time. In the 60s and 80s I relied on local hobbyshops, in NJ and PA. In the recent years, getting partway back in with my grandson's layout and then fully engaged with my 2012 immersion, the internet and long-distance engagement has been predominent.
In the early times, I enjoyed the engagement with LHS people and their helpful insight, plus the ability to look at which $1.59 freight car kit I wanted most. In recent times, my nearest LHS is 45 minutes away and has very little stock, so I go occasionally (less and less) for an excursion, some interaction, maybe getting something I want immediately, and always buying something to help their cash flow. But I've gravitated to MBKlein as my go-to source (if they have what I want) as they have a fairly diverse stock, good prices, good service, etc. And I've found that now I can call particular experts or companies (e.g., Tonys Trains, LokSound, etc) and have discussions I would not consider in the age of toll calls (before cell phones). Of course, some internet vendors are not worth looking at, including those IMO who primarily advertise things they don't have.
And of course some thing have changed quite dramatically. Want some resistors, order 50 or 100 from a (positively reviewed) China suppier for $2 or so, short cutting lots of intermediate stops. Probably the biggest type change IMO.
So, as always there are pro's and con's to the good ole days versus today, but things will always change and overall I like today better. The big concern (things will continue to change) is the overall sustainability of the hobby; e.g., for the manufacturers and suppliers to have enough business to make most of the things we want available, near term for us older folks and longer term for a potentially smaller customer base.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
Again as an HOn3 guy, I use M.B. Klein as they have a limited but useful selection in HOn3 materials, locos and rolling stock which is blossoming nicely. The recent move to add U.S.P.S. shipping as already noted above is a big help over my past ordering experience which was a bit shipping expensive. They may be limited in my venue, but they are getting better and listening to their customers.
The big HOn3 dealers are best tapped at the Timonium shows for me as opposed to mail ordering where you can, indeed, see and touch and ask questions. Not one single LHS in my town of nearly one million has even ever had any narrow gauge save for one that went out of business 10 years ago! There is currently only one single rather pathetic general hobby store in the city with HO and N trains of which only about 15% of their offerings are MR related. As all of the other LHSs have closed within the last 5 years. The last decent one closed 2 years ago.
For me and many MRs here, online shopping is the NEW hobby shop. Really the only one. No complaints for sure. There are so many new items appearing on the MR scene, no LHS could hope to please everyone with their "on-hand" offerings.
The best LHS we ever had here, was a great place to go for everything MR other than you favorite locos and rolling stock! They had every MR nick-nack you could imagine. Code 55 rail joiners, undyed wood ties, code 40 rail, On3 couplers, 7 sizes of scale brass chain, Sn2 car kits, decals, etc. They were packed on the weekends. Gone 10 years now.
For all MRs who have no LHS or one of real value, use on line services, but more importantly, try and go to at least one large MR show venue each year. You can touch, see and feel MR stuff there among many dealers offering good prices and a super wide variety of MR goodies you really need.
Complaining about no good LHS is a waste of energy. The old days will never return so move into the new world of MRing. The good stuff is still out there, actually, there is more of it and better than ever, too! You will just need to be more modern and pro-active in achieving your MRing goals.
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed
narrow gauge nuclearFor all MRs who have no LHS or one of real value, use on line services, but more importantly, try and go to at least one large MR show venue each year.
Richard,One thing I have notice about some train show attendees they seem to be in a rush and want to be in and out in less then 30 minutes.Some even rush home to post how bad the show was on a forum or face book.
Why bother to go if one rushes through the show and misses a lot of good deals?
fieryturboRegarding the rush, some people go despite hating crowds. I am one of those. I will remind myself to slow down and relax though, thanks for that
While you're there and looking around be sure to look under the front of the dealer's tables since dealers usually place their newer and higher price models on his tables. I found a older Atlas/Kato SCL GP7 in mint condition for $45.00 in a box containing older Atlas Classic locomotives. I also bought three used Atlas Precision Designed 50' boxcars from the same dealer for $7.00 each.Again these was located under the front of his tables.
I live in an area of over 8 million, two decent hobby shops for MR, 1/2 dozen more that are only worth going to if you are walking by.
For me the Train Show and the Internet have been my Hobby Store for a long time. Not only am I primarily in a minority scale - S, but I live where most of the model railroad hobby shops have closed anyway.
I have found that going to a train show 3 or 4 hours after it opens usually means a smaller crowd. If it's a 2 day show the second day is less crowded. While you may miss that hot deal, some dealers are more willing to deal after the inital rush is gone.
Good luck
Another perspective is using EBay; when I need a particular MicroScale decal set, I do need to see it as an image, but not necessarily hold it in my hand. Therefore, shopping online allows me to save gas, allocate my shopping time on my schedule, and still be a customer when the need arises. Many online vendors, both the small EBAY ones and larger ones such as MB Klein receive orders 24/7. This is far better than driving to a physical store while they are open, and hoping they have what you want in stock.
I miss the tactile aspect of B&M hobby shops, but offset that loss with attendance at quarterly swap meets, where I CAN see and touch.
But these days, with the Internet and all sorts of model railroad products accessible online, give me the simple life!
Cedarwoodron
Have fun with your trains