My retirement project railroad is intended to represent a real railroad. I'll be building a lot of benchwork, laying a lot of track, and doing a lot of wiring in the next several years. Correct steam locomotives can be represented by modifying some available models. About half of the diesels can be modeled with excellent available models, but the other half of the diesel roster involves a model that has only been produced in brass. That brass model is hard to find and needs a lot of work to be a truly good model. I'll be doing a lot of work on those items, so any appropriate R-T-R models I can find will help me attain my goals.
One of the shippers on my prototype line was the H. W. Madison Pickle Co. (no kidding). Madison's vat-style pickle cars weren't exactly like any others I've seen, but I have to represent them with something. So I have a couple generic Athearn pickle cars that will run as Madison cars until I get around to scratchbuilding correct ones. I'm 68 years old now and plan to live to be about 145. I expect to get around to that project when I'm about 135. Maybe 130 if things go well.
Scratchbuilding is great. So is kit building. But R-T-R shouldn't be discounted, because it helps to get us where we want to go.
Tom
riogrande5761Accurail are nice easy to build kits but many are not very good matches for specific prototypes but some are decent stand-in's...
And there's the issue. There are only so many uses for any given model. Let's say you want a plain old basic 40' boxcar. An Accurail kit may work for that.
Let's say you want some variety in covered hoppers beyond what you can get in Accurail or similar kits. What if you want something like a Magor 4750 hopper? You could try this ExactRail offering, or attempt a major kitbashing or scratchbuilding project. When you're done, you'd possibly have spent about the same on parts and finishing supplies, and there's no guarantee all the necessary components or decals would even be available.
Restricting yourself to certain sources of cars limits what you can do without huge investments in time some of us don't have, and there's no guarantee you're saving money. So what if this car was double the cost of an Accurail hopper or some other kit (and it did come with real Kadee couplers and machined metal wheelsets which Accurail kits don't have)? Nobody else has one, so I'd rather have fewer cars but more realistic variety. I'll gladly forego the additional cheaper car.
Rob Spangler
Hi!
Another modeler here........ I much prefer kits to RTR, with the possible exception of full size passenger cars.
Of course I have to stir the pot a bit, and bring out the point that RTR is rarely "RTR". The vast majority need replacement couplers or wheelsets or adjustments of one kind or another. For a modeler, that is no big deal of course.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Dusty Solo I have failed to come up with any reason that makes any sense to me.
A somewhat cynical Bear would suggest "Deep pockets, Short Arms Syndrome" or Failure of persons to put their money where their mouth is. I've unfortunately seen it before and it is not confined just to model railroaders.
Cheers, the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
wp8thsub riogrande5761 Accurail are nice easy to build kits but many are not very good matches for specific prototypes but some are decent stand-in's... And there's the issue. There are only so many uses for any given model. Let's say you want a plain old basic 40' boxcar. An Accurail kit may work for that. Restricting yourself to certain sources of cars limits what you can do without huge investments in time some of us don't have, and there's no guarantee you're saving money. So what if this car was double the cost of an Accurail hopper or some other kit (and it did come with real Kadee couplers and machined metal wheelsets which Accurail kits don't have)? Nobody else has one, so I'd rather have fewer cars but more realistic variety. I'll gladly forego the additional cheaper car.
riogrande5761 Accurail are nice easy to build kits but many are not very good matches for specific prototypes but some are decent stand-in's...
I think there is a fundemental difference between some of the modelers in this topic. For some, matching models to specific freight cars may not be important, they just like to build kits - the kit may be a fantasy model in many cases. I think for you and I, it is important to match real freight cars so we make that a priority over the kit vs. RTR debate. I know I get pleasure in modeling trains that look like the real thing, car for car, as much as we can. Your magor car is and example.
For me, there is somewhat of a cost benefit to researching and limiting my purchases to models which are good matches to the prototype. I buy fewer freight cars but they are mostly good matches to real cars, which is more satisfying to me to see model trains that look like the real thing, more literally.
BRAKIE riogrande5761 I have found that at train shows you can often gleen nice RTR freight cars - for prices in the $10-15 dollar range if there is a collection for sale which helps in the budget war Jim,That's the thing..I have notice new old stock RTR cars at $12-18.00 while some older BB and Roundhouse kits was $10.00 each at some shows..Then as we know there are dealers selling BB kits 3/$10.00 in the next aisle..
riogrande5761 I have found that at train shows you can often gleen nice RTR freight cars - for prices in the $10-15 dollar range if there is a collection for sale which helps in the budget war
Jim,That's the thing..I have notice new old stock RTR cars at $12-18.00 while some older BB and Roundhouse kits was $10.00 each at some shows..Then as we know there are dealers selling BB kits 3/$10.00 in the next aisle..
That is my my standard train show habit is to take a quick walk around and see what is there first before I buy anything - too often there are higher cost tables when others have good bargains of the same model(s).
It even worst on e-Bay..I seen the BB and Roundhouse car kits at the same price as some of the better brands of RTR cars.Accurail kits can be as much as some older Atlas or Athearn RTR cars.
Apparently Ebays free re-list policies are to blame for people listing models at insane prices - I've seen models at 2 to 4 times their retail price. I doubt they sell, but just seeing them listed at those prices makes me shake my head at the cheek of these people. Whatever, move along!
Cheers, Jim
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
It's called capitolism, whatever the market will pay sets the price regardless of the actual value. It's not a crime, although it soon might be.
I'm always amazed at the price people pay for many things in general, not just this hobby, and if someone wants something bad enough, so be it, I don't look at the seller with any disdain, I say good for him.
(Sorry for the goofy fonts, I refuse to fight with MR's software )
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
riogrande5761 trainnut1250 As for kits I won’t build: Every train guy I know already has more kits than they can complete in this lifetime stashed away. A rather sobering realization when you reach that point. I have seven file boxes full of some pretty cool stuff. My stash is comparatively small. Your mileage may vary,Guy In my case I had quite a few kits stashed away and after enough years had gone by, I realized (just like some house hold items) if they've been unattended that long, out they go. I had to come to the realization that I didn't generally enjoy building kits and it was simply a means to an end - which is probably true for many in the pre-HQRTR era. Since that realization, I have sold off more than half of them to folks who like doing that sort of thing. My guess is hundreds of others have to judging from the quantities of kits at train shows. I do build kits if the rolling stock is important as a typical era type freight car for my era/local.
trainnut1250 As for kits I won’t build: Every train guy I know already has more kits than they can complete in this lifetime stashed away. A rather sobering realization when you reach that point. I have seven file boxes full of some pretty cool stuff. My stash is comparatively small. Your mileage may vary,Guy
In my case I had quite a few kits stashed away and after enough years had gone by, I realized (just like some house hold items) if they've been unattended that long, out they go. I had to come to the realization that I didn't generally enjoy building kits and it was simply a means to an end - which is probably true for many in the pre-HQRTR era. Since that realization, I have sold off more than half of them to folks who like doing that sort of thing. My guess is hundreds of others have to judging from the quantities of kits at train shows. I do build kits if the rolling stock is important as a typical era type freight car for my era/local.
Yeah, you know when ever I see someone complaining about the lack of kits, I think about how many are out there in boxes and cabinets unbuilt. I suspect that there will be a certain number of kits passed around for decades in the unbuilt state, just waiting until the next owner realizes that they don't have time or inclination and they're passed on to the next modeler in the "lather, rinse, repeat" cycle.
I too have sold lots of kits but not because I don't enjoy building. Usually it is because I get a better version of the model or my focus changes.
Back to the trainroom,
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
Modeling a prototype running in a specific era naturally limits the number of cars I buy. Just like Jim here this has the effect of moderating the amount of cars I have & as a consequence of this the amount of money I spend. I dont buy cars, either kits or R-T-R that I can't use. Even this still creates a number of shelf queens.
Dusty
Goodness, this discussion has stayed amazingly rational.
On the bottom line, none of us has infinite time, money, and room. It all comes down to "what do you want to accomplish, and what are you willing to trade off?"As I mentioned above, operations is my #1 priority; for me, then, anything that gets operations started is to the good. And, honestly, I'd rather spend time making my switchlist form more useful (which, oddly enough, usually means making it more like the prototype ) than worrying about oversized stirrup steps on a freight car. Your mileage will vary.And of course, above all, do what is the most fun! "Life is short, eat dessert first." If you like building kits, then do that. If you like scratchbuilding, do that. If you like handlaying track, do that. If you like operating, do that.And if anybody tries to tell you you're not a "real model railroader," you have my permission to tinkle on his shoe.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Michael:
Maybe IN his shoe.
PS I know we're supposed to play nice, but I couldn't resist.
It's interesting to see what different aspects of this hobby are important to us as individuals. As I've stated, I like building kits. However, that a car be a faithful reproduction of a specific car isn't, really important to me. Instead, I simply like what I like. Others feel a need to have an actual copy of a real car, I can understand this. I just don't feel that to be as important to my overall concept. When I find a car that is an actual copy, so much the better. With locomotives and cabooses, I go after specifics.
I also love building building kits and have no use for a RTR building. Others will make use of pre-built buildings and I understand this.
I have scratched the surface of operations. If I could find others in my area that wanted to operate, maybe operations would be more important to me.
At one time I was a member of a club and took on building a new staging yard and turntable for the club. The club's operation hinged on having viewing times for the public. I lost interest in this very quickly and dropped out.
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
I may disagree with myself on my earlier post on this thread. Today I completed an Intermountain reefer that I pulled off the shelf of to-be-built boxes three days ago. I did struggle a bit with getting all the details off the sprue without breaking them; i.e., broke one brake step bracket and one other item. Not enough to get a new sprue sent as I worked around it. But I was somewhat perplexed at my attempting to enjoy attaching the grab irons, requiring gluing into holes without getting some on the sides adjacent to the hole. The hands are slightly shaky, and concentrating seems to increase the shaking. I built another of these long enough ago that I forgot how tedious it was. The Tichy flat car was easier. But the Tichy crane car still sits in the box as it looks scary. Then there's the pickle car top kit to put on a flat car...kinda looking forward to that.
There's a third Intermountain on the shelf. I'm sure it will get built, maybe without breaking a teeny part. I have to admit I had to look hard to find the prior one on the layout among the other simpler kits. But a photo would sure show the differences.
If I ever go to N scale, there will not be kits.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
peahrens I may disagree with myself on my earlier post on this thread. Today I completed an Intermountain reefer that I pulled off the shelf of to-be-built boxes three days ago. I did struggle a bit with getting all the details off the sprue without breaking them; i.e., broke one brake step bracket and one other item. Not enough to get a new sprue sent as I worked around it. But I was somewhat perplexed at my attempting to enjoy attaching the grab irons, requiring gluing into holes without getting some on the sides adjacent to the hole. The hands are slightly shaky, and concentrating seems to increase the shaking. I built another of these long enough ago that I forgot how tedious it was. The Tichy flat car was easier. But the Tichy crane car still sits in the box as it looks scary. Then there's the pickle car top kit to put on a flat car...kinda looking forward to that. There's a third Intermountain on the shelf. I'm sure it will get built, maybe without breaking a teeny part. I have to admit I had to look hard to find the prior one on the layout among the other simpler kits. But a photo would sure show the differences. If I ever go to N scale, there will not be kits.
Paul, cutting the tiny parts from the sprues can be difficult, to say the least. I have been frustrated a few times by having a very small part break as it was cut loose from the sprue or, worse yet, fly from the sprue and go to the place where lost parts go, never to be found again. I have found usinga sprue cutter works for bigger parts; but, for the small delicate parts I still use a #11 knife and back the part up with a small block of wood, always attempting to back up directly, where I need to cut.
All this type of work brings a calming to my body, I feel my breathing slow down and probably my heart rate, too. It would appear to me that Intermountain, Red Caboose, Branchline Blueprint and LLP2K kits are all very similar with many small plastic parts. I don't know if any of these kits are available anymore from the manufacturer. If some of you have a line on a manufacturer still producing these types of kits, I would appreciate hearing about them.
NP2626 Paul, cutting the tiny parts from the sprues can be difficult, to say the least. I have been frustrated a few times by having a very small part break as it was cut loose from the sprue or, worse yet, fly from the sprue and go to the place where lost parts go, never to be found again. I have found usinga sprue cutter works for bigger parts; but, for the small delicate parts I still use a #11 knife and back the part up with a small block of wood, always attempting to back up directly, where I need to cut.
Some years back I bought a desprueing nipper from a tool dealer at a train show. The one I bought has fine sharp tips on it and cuts the finest part off the sprues that I have ever encountered. Nothing has been to fine for it to cut including all the tiniest parts from Intermountain, Proto 2000, and the like; rarely does a part break when cutting although it happens occasionally - possibly because the part was stressed already or had a fracture in it. Before I got the desprueing nipper, I used Exacto chisel blades and of course the long #11 blades, and tended to break tiny parts more when using those, but it was the only thing I knew for years. After I got the desprueing tool, that part of kit building became a breeze! Gluing has become my nemesis since my near vision has gone the way of the middle age syndrome.
riogrande5761Some years back I bought a desprueing nipper from a tool dealer at a train show. The one I bought has fine sharp tips on it and cuts the finest part off the sprues that I have ever encountered. Nothing has been to fine for it to cut including all the tiniest parts from Intermountain, Proto 2000, and the like; rarely does a part break when cutting although it happens occasionally - possibly because the part was stressed already or had a fracture in it.
Thanks, I'll look for this at our next local train show, next month I think. I have the Xuron nippers but for these small parts I thought a sharp #11 blade was better (or a new single edge blade).
The photo below looks like the ones I got. PBL used to sell them and Micro Mark looks like they sell basically the same thing. I think I paid around $12 for the generical brand I got but the PBL ones went for $16 some years ago - but if you build lots of kits, these things are the cat's meow!
PBL used to sell 3 different ones, and one had longer pointy ends which could get in and snip very fine parts off of the sprue - mine are like those - and appear like the ones in the photo. They also two others which were more oriented to cutting thicker gates on sprues, and were more blunt. The fine point type is best for 95% of the parts cut in kits like Intermountain, Proto 2000 and the like. Click on the link below for the nippers sold by Micro Mark; they look the same as I have. Once you get a pair, you won't believe how easy and quick it is to remove all the little parts from the sprues and you would have wished you got one a long time ago!
http://www.micromark.com/tweezer-sprue-cutter-despruing-tweezer,8012.html
I use a set of Xuron track cutters for snipping things off the sprue. For parting small items from the sprue, I use Swann Morton scalpel blades,
I now have quite a few N scale kits from Walthers, which, because of the way they are moulded, are easy to assemble and paint. I prefer assembling these kits and intend to super-detail them in a future life. Personally, given the availability of kits, I would prefer to do kit building rather than running trains.
Dennis
Xuron should work good for large sprue gates. What I like about the tweezer style sprue nippers as oposed to knife type cutters (xacto, scalple etc.) is that the nippers pinch the gate from both sides, so you are far less likely to break the part when cutting it off. Side forces are essentially nill. I've had issues with sharp knifes, which do work ok but the nippers, well, after you use them you will know what I mean. I've heard this is what is used by the model assemblers overseas in the factories, and I can see why.
I have found that the Xuron nippers I have, can put undue stress on small parts. Thanks for suggesting the tweezers type of sprue nippers! I have seen them advertized in my Micro-Mark catalogs, I wil give them a try.
riogrande5761
I have used very small childrens nailclippers with great success. You get equal preasure from both sides just as in the above photo.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
The nippers are awesome with the fine points. I don't know what the childrens nail clippers look like but the nippers have little sharp points which dip down which allows you to insert the tips into tiny places where the gates are. Thats what is so good about the sprue nippers.
Who do you guys consider to be the best producer of highly detailed RTR freight cars? I model the transition era, so plese keep that in mind with your recommendations.
Also, I have started another thread on Sprue Cutters to attempt to keep this thread heading the direction I want it to go.
As a logging modeler,you have to be creative.Sure,I would love to have a fleet of Kadee log cars,but the bank just will not go along with that plan.I found that rebuilding/kitbashing cheaper cars can build the fleet quickly and cheaply.I am also starting to scratchbuild so log cars.
NP2626Who do you guys consider to be the best producer of highly detailed RTR freight cars? I model the transition era, so plese keep that in mind with your recommendations.
If I was modeling the transition era I would choose cars from Atlas,Red Caboose,InterMountain and KD
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I'd agree with Larry's choices, although the first three all suffer from the overly-fat plastic grabiron syndrome. The Kadee cars, I think, have metal grabs, but there's a fairly limited choice of rolling stock.The best r-t-r car with which I'm familiar is Bowser's PRR H-30 covered hopper - a car which could certainly be seen just about anywhere (even on the Northern Pacific), but perhaps not in great quantities.
Wayne
doctorwayneThe Kadee cars, I think, have metal grabs...
The grabs on the Kadee cars I have are a tough engineering plastic. Very strong but still flexible.