Several years ago, the local dealer was clearing out the remaining Blue Box Locomotive Kits, powered and dummy, at very low prices.
Picked up a few, that the annual train budget would allow.
As I have a good collection of spare replacement parts for Athearn Blue Box Locomotives and rolling stock, I decided to take a Dummy GE U30-B and convert into a power unit.
A while back, Bowser/English Supply, was purgining their inventory of Athearn powered mechanisms, modified for application on the old Penn Line FM H 16-44 models.
From the 5 or so mechanisms that I purchased, the parts came in and are handy.
This is a good challenge trouble shooting problem, for a electrician, electrical engineer and or anyone who likes doing electrical work.
So here is the outline and problem:
(1) The aforementioned was put together with parts on hand. Again the U30-B was converted from a dummy to a straight DC power unit.
(2) Removed paint from truck bolsters and removed paint from floor of frame, motor contact area.
(3) Fastned head light bracket via drill, tap and screw.
(4) Applied Kadee's, via drill, tap and screw, with plastic couple pockets, either 27's 0r 28's.
(5) Power trucks. New style with detactable plastic side frames. Cleaned top power contacts.
(6) Conventional standard Athearn drive train parts.
(7) Newer style narrow side motor jet with brass flywheels.
(8) Mounted motor jet with Athearn motor mounts.
(9) Drive train is aligned and not binding.
(10) Trucks roll freely, with no gear binding.
(11) Replaced top motor jet contact strip, actually, cut downing length. Wired and soldered with rosin core solder. Female terminal connectors solder to cable ends. Push/Pull on the ends to power truck contacts.
(12) Runs So-So.
Can tell by rar not receiving full voltage at times.
(13) Exchanged motor jet for another one. Same problem.
(14) Removed carbon brushes from motor jets to look over for cracks with magnifying glass. No cracks detected.
(15) Checked tension on motor jet carbon brush springs. Tension within range.
(16) Examined motor jet hot shoe, bottom contact. Appears to have sufficent projections (whiskers) and making contact with frame floor. Presently have no extra's on hand, to see if this may be problem.
(17) Disassembled power trucks, paying close attention to electrical contacts to side frame and truck electrical connections. Rivets tight to frames.
(18) Track and power pack fine. Other locomotives in collection run fine.
(19) Motor jet commutator has normal carbon build up. Have cleaned same with denatured alcohol. Yes disassembled from plastic parts of jet before hand.
(20) Things not looked over yet:
(a) Bad windings in two (2) motor jets used? Test with multi-meter, mode setting(type of setting to conduct test,
non-energized)?
(b) Bad motor jet hot shoe's, due to insufficent copper whisker projection width?
(c) Disconnect one end of motor cable from a truck. Unit will run without this connection This should not be doing
this?
(d) Anyother thoughts and suggestions, to look at/overlooked?
Sounds like you have intermittant electrical contact, somewhere in there. Tell us about the fault. Does the locomotive just loose power, or does it come to a dead stop? When the motor looses power, do the headlamps stay on? If you take the motor out of the chassis does it run smoothly when you connect it to 12 volts? Are all the wheels installed right way round? All eight (12?) insulated sides of the wheel sides MUST be on the same side of the locomotive.
The top strap on the motor serves as a wiper to bring juice from the trucks to the top brush of the motor. The wiping contact it makes with the wiper from the trucks is undependable. Your hardware store will sell you a terminal lug called a "1/4 inch Faston". These will slide nicely over the wipers coming up from the trucks. Crimp a wire into the Faston, and solder the other end to the top strap. The top strap material is reluctant to take solder, but it can be done. Buff the metal bright with a wire wheel in a Dremel, use rosin flux, and a large iron. Remove the top strap from the motor before heating it with the iron.
The bottom motor brush gets its juice from the chassis. A spike like thingus pierces the rubber motor mount and contacts the chassis. Inspect same,fix if possible. If necessary solder a wire to the bottom brush holder and bring it to a screw tapped into the chassis.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
The Athearn wheels are self-insulating, so there's no worry about a short that way. However, Athearn trucks, at least those on the SW1200RS shown below, come in front and rear versions. It's been a while since I did these units, but if you've mistakenly installed two similar trucks on the same loco (both fronts or rears), the loco may run but not go anywhere.
My units were re-powered with can motors, but I soldered wire to all of the contact points on the trucks, then routed them through a homemade board which allows each truck to be unplugged, should the truck ever need to be removed.
Wayne
Yes, the front and rear trucks are different. If you put 2 front's or rears, the gears won't be a problem, but the electrical path will be wrong. Both sheet metal "hooks" that come up and over the joint couplings have to come over the same direction, so that they are pointing to the same side of the locomotive.
Much like DStarr said, the unit should be tested in its "simple" parts. As with any electrical or mechanical testing should be done.
First I would check the motor on a straight 12vdc power supply. It either runs well or doesnt. If not, replace motor (possible that you have 2 bad ones, yes. it happens) If motor is fine, then....
Second, using a voltmeter, check top side of frame wiring by placing the frame (with trucks) on a powered track (no motor!). After stationary voltmeter check of both truck wirings is done, roll the unit along track to see if any intermittant problems happen checking each truck wiring seperately. While this will elude to the problem, it will not pin point the problem yet. Therefore.....
Third, remove the truck that has a problem. If both failed the second step, then you have a problem with both trucks. The idea here is to "trace back" along the electrical path until you get back to the powered rails themselves with no parts left to test.
Fourth, by now if youve still a problem, the trucks should be in torn down stage. Test wiper contact (proper alignment, travel, placement). If that still doesnt work then I would suggest switching your voltmeter over to ohm meter (if yours can, if not, get one! they are as important as a voltmeter!) and test your parts for impedance (resistance).
For metals (used in electrical systems) your resistance should be low or nothing. A high value means the part is almost non conducting, and therefore is the culprit. Alot of people dont know this but for every electrical joint or connection, you do lose a pinch of power. Connections (yes even soldered) and joints are seen as resistance to electricity.
By following the path from motor back to rail one step at a time, this should pin point where the electrical problem is. Also bear in mine, any recent heavy over oiling will sometimes cause elect. shorts, as will non dielectric greases used for gear lube. Even possible if you recently washed the loco (mild soap and water lets say) there may be some h2o not eveaporated yet (doesnt sound like the case, but...)
Hope this helps.
EDIT: One more thing.... you said you "wired and soldered" when replacing the above motor metal strap. Did you use wire with the proper gauge (large enough to handle the power/current) of wire? It does make a difference!
Headlight wires are generally tiny (no load), but your power wires from rail to motor should be much larger in size. As you see, the Athearn metal strap contact system is pretty much a "very simplistic" method of moving electricity. You will also notice how much metal makes up the strap compared to the metal in a wire. So in replacing strap with wire, you may have inadvertantly lowered your ability to move power from truck contact to motor, even though you solved the 'contact' problem inherent with Athearns.
As mentioned above both trucks' "hooks" have to be on the same side. If they are both on the wrong side the locomotive will run backwards.
Athearn Blue Boxes that have been stored for a while are subject to commutator corrosion. Rubbing a bright boy against the commutator with the motor running usually helps a lot.
Athearn mechanisms also need a fair amount of lubrication. I put a small drop of oil at each end of the motor, each U joint, each worm gear bearing, and each axle bearing on each truck. I also put a dollop of grease on each worm gear. As the locomotive runs this gets distributed through the gear tower.
Net result for the gold motor drives is less than 1/4 amp at 10 volts when running free.
The next step is to gently rub a bright boy on the wheel surfaces while the motor is running. This cleans gunk off the wheel surface. The sintered wheels pick up a lot of gunk and corrosion.
Be sure to use plastic compatible oil and grease.
They won't run like a Kato, but thry will actually run pretty well when tuned up like this.
PM Railfan You will also notice how much metal makes up the strap compared to the metal in a wire. So in replacing strap with wire, you may have inadvertantly lowered your ability to move power from truck contact to motor, even though you solved the 'contact' problem inherent with Athearns.
The amount of metal in the strap is irrelevant. You want flexibillity between the trucks and the motor, so all you need is some standed 28 or 32 gauge flixible wire to connect the trucks with the top of the motor.
Jay
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Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
If you are using original Athearn trucks, they had sintered iron wheels and were not the greatest for good electrical pick up. Clean and polish them the best you can and see if that makes any difference. Even better, replace them with nickel silver wheel sets.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
PM Railfan EDIT: One more thing.... you said you "wired and soldered" when replacing the above motor metal strap. Did you use wire with the proper gauge (large enough to handle the power/current) of wire? It does make a difference! Headlight wires are generally tiny (no load), but your power wires from rail to motor should be much larger in size. As you see, the Athearn metal strap contact system is pretty much a "very simplistic" method of moving electricity. You will also notice how much metal makes up the strap compared to the metal in a wire. So in replacing strap with wire, you may have inadvertantly lowered your ability to move power from truck contact to motor, even though you solved the 'contact' problem inherent with Athearns.
Decoders use 28 to 32 gauge wire to connect the wheels and the motor .... heavy wire isn't as important as you may think ....
Mark R. .... heavy wire isn't as important as you may think .... Mark.
.... heavy wire isn't as important as you may think ....
Thats a very bad statement to make. And many people make this mistake. Not just in model railroading but in all facets of life that use electricity. The wire gauge is ALWAYS important. the poster didnt mentioned the wire size they used when replacing the strap.
Since we are talking track power (which can run up to 5 amps [alot of power for scale rails!]) and not DCC signaling wires (only for signaling control, no power in them - much like computer wiring... low voltage and NO amps) it is VERY important to get the right gauge wire. Flexibility is not the concern, it is a given since its wire.
All said and done, the orig metal strap can carry alot of juice where as when replaced with a wire, it also needs to be of sufficient size to carry the "load". Using too small of a wire gauge on the "power" side of the wiring can produce a non running or bad running loco. Non experienced hobbyists need to know this.
Let see.
Will answer paragraph by paragraph.
Decrease in power, intermediate.
Does Not Serge.
No problem whatsoever with dead stop.
Headlight normal brightness.
Headlight does stay on at normal brightness, when audible sound in decress of voltage.
No problem with bright headlight, open circuit, short.
Motor runs well, when taken out and aligator clips attached to power pack and motor jet, 12 volt dc.
New style truck, with detactable plastic side frames. Not like your "old" metal truck frames.
Thought wheels are insulated, regardless of installation???
Top strap on motor jet. Have cut ends to short length and solder 22 gauge cable on each end.
Other end of cables have female terminal connectors soldered on. Some call quick disconnect terminals. Attached to truck metal contacts.
Rosin Core solder.
Soldering was done as you have stated.
Have not thought to solder cable to bottom of brush holder (Hot Shoe) drill, tap, screw to frame.
What do you think?
Pere Marquette.
Take a look at the latest post to "DStarr.
Adendum.
(1) Have checked both motor jets, out of locomotives on 12 volt dc, with aligator clip method. Both run fine, so this should rule out bad commutator windings?
(2) Will do the multi-meter test prescribed.
(3) Same as number 2.
(4) Will go through trucks as outlined.
(5) Will conduct the resistance test.
(6) No heavy lubrication, over lubricated with wrong grease. Have used greases such as LaBelle and Lubri-Plate (Fisk Brothers Refinery).
Interesting note. A couple of years ago, I had contacted Fisk Brothers Engineering Department & Chemistry Laboratory, with particulars, type of equipment with specifications (Professional Mechanical Engineering stuff), as well as a sample of LaBelle Greased for chemical analysis.
Several weeks later, recieved a very nice letter from a Fisk Brothers P.E. (Professional Engineer), along with a sample grease that is comperable to LaBelle. (Who knows, could very well be the same grease and manufactured by Fisk, under contract to LaBelle (Con-Cor) as both have a direct connection to the Chicago area.
(7) Cable is 22 gauge, multi strand copper, not solid copper cable.
In closing thanks to both you and Dstarr for suggestions for detail trouble shooting.
Electricity is a interesting element (not to be confused with the periodic table of elements), weather natural and or man made.
It can create all kinds of interesting problems and any cableman, lineman or electronics technician can tell you some very interesting stories and methods of trouble shotting a specific problem and corrective methods.
Yes, I did read the response to DStarr too. Here are the answers to your response to me...
1) this test shows the motors both work electrically (free spinning). The only test left on the motors you can perform would be to install them in a whole other loco, and put them under load (pull a train). This will tell you if the windings are good or not. If they pass this test, then you can now rule out the motors as the bad part. (if you cant put them in another loco, find a way to just put resistance on the motor shaft.)
2), 3), and 4) let me know your findings. we can get more detailed from your results.
5) along with what you said to DStarr about wheels and insulation. Heres a basic tip you can apply to all wheels used for electrical pick-up:
If the wiper contacts the axle, only one of the wheels will have a plastic insert between it and the axle. OR one wheel only may even be totally plastic itself, and the other wheel being metal.
If the wiper touchs the wheel, it will be insulated from the axle. The axle itself may even be plastic. This greatly depends on the make up of the truck (plastic or metal). As the wheel needs not touch anything during free movement (rolling).
All wheels on ONE truck must line up symetrically concerning electrical insulation. Meaning all wheels on one truck must pick up either positive, or negative only. These rules apply no matter what your working on, diesel or steam, new trucks or old.
In all cases, DC power is a two lane road. And both lanes must at all times be totally seperated from each other.
6) well we can discount this aspect. Was very informative your info on Fisk Bros., PME, and La Belle. Ive used La Belle oil for decades. Good stuff!
7) gauge 18 multi strand would have been the better choice. Multi strand verses solid core is debateable. However, multi strand is more flexible, and has more surface area on the metal wires for electrons to flow.
Too small of a wire and the wire will overheat and possibly melt the insulation. Not only would this ground out if touching something, but also if it was rubbing inside of shell could melt a whole in it. It is possible if wire is too small the wire itself will melt in two, thus an open circuit.
Yeah the electrical can be fun, and also be hair pulling. Mostly the latter for the layman. Thank goodness model railroading has always been a simple DC circuit. (although Im sure some DCC guys out there would easily beg to differ!) Fortunately for me this side of the hobby always came easy to me. I started as a kid in a local hobby shop to which some of my duties was fixing trains. Tyco to Athearn, Atlas to Rivarossi, and back to Bachman again. Some Lionel too. It was all fun and a great learning experience.
PM Railfan Mark R. .... heavy wire isn't as important as you may think .... Mark. Thats a very bad statement to make. And many people make this mistake. Not just in model railroading but in all facets of life that use electricity. The wire gauge is ALWAYS important. the poster didnt mentioned the wire size they used when replacing the strap. Since we are talking track power (which can run up to 5 amps [alot of power for scale rails!]) and not DCC signaling wires (only for signaling control, no power in them - much like computer wiring... low voltage and NO amps) it is VERY important to get the right gauge wire. Flexibility is not the concern, it is a given since its wire. All said and done, the orig metal strap can carry alot of juice where as when replaced with a wire, it also needs to be of sufficient size to carry the "load". Using too small of a wire gauge on the "power" side of the wiring can produce a non running or bad running loco. Non experienced hobbyists need to know this.
I realized after I posted thated that, it was painted with a rather broad brush ....
However, 28 to 32 gauge wire IS adequate for the internal wiring of an engine. As for your comment regarding DCC, those fine wires DO carry upwards of 2 amps when the motor is loaded, the sound is on as well as a full complement of lighting. That all requires amps flowing through those small wires. If it wasn't adequate, the decoder manufacturers would not be using it.
18 gauge wire is pure over-kill for wiring an engine. We use 18 gauge wire to run a light fixture in our house containing five 60 watt light bulbs running on 110 volts.
Mark R.18 gauge wire is pure over-kill for wiring an engine. We use 18 gauge wire to run a light fixture in our house containing five 60 watt light bulbs running on 110 volts.
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jeffrey-wimberly Mark R. 18 gauge wire is pure over-kill for wiring an engine. We use 18 gauge wire to run a light fixture in our house containing five 60 watt light bulbs running on 110 volts. Glad you didn't wire my home. The lightest piece of wire in my homes wiring is 14 gauge and that goes to a light switch controling four 23W CFL's. The rest of the wiring is much heavier, 12 gauge and 10 gauge. Much of the wiring I used on my layout is 18 gauge automotive grade. As for decoder wiring I use what comes with the decoder. I use only motor/light control decoders so there's not a great deal of power in the wires. Just the same I've had decoder wires burn in two.
Mark R. 18 gauge wire is pure over-kill for wiring an engine. We use 18 gauge wire to run a light fixture in our house containing five 60 watt light bulbs running on 110 volts.
Glad you didn't wire my home. The lightest piece of wire in my homes wiring is 14 gauge and that goes to a light switch controling four 23W CFL's. The rest of the wiring is much heavier, 12 gauge and 10 gauge. Much of the wiring I used on my layout is 18 gauge automotive grade. As for decoder wiring I use what comes with the decoder. I use only motor/light control decoders so there's not a great deal of power in the wires. Just the same I've had decoder wires burn in two.
Man, forget to cross the T's and dot the I's and get chastised every time. I was referring to a light fixture that sits on your table and plugs into the wall - not a light fixture that is hardwired into the ceiling .... or the wall .... or the basement .... or the attic .... or the garage ....
Hope I didn't miss anything ....
PM Railfan.....5) along with what you said to DStarr about wheels and insulation. Heres a basic tip you can apply to all wheels used for electrical pick-up: If the wiper contacts the axle, only one of the wheels will have a plastic insert between it and the axle. OR one wheel only may even be totally plastic itself, and the other wheel being metal. If the wiper touchs the wheel, it will be insulated from the axle. The axle itself may even be plastic. This greatly depends on the make up of the truck (plastic or metal). As the wheel needs not touch anything during free movement (rolling). All wheels on ONE truck must line up symetrically concerning electrical insulation. Meaning all wheels on one truck must pick up either positive, or negative only. These rules apply no matter what your working on, diesel or steam, new trucks or old. In all cases, DC power is a two lane road. And both lanes must at all times be totally seperated from each other......
Just to clarify the situation, the Athearn wheelset assemblies for diesels are self-insulating, with each metal wheel on a metal stub half-axle. These press into each end of a one-piece plastic sleeve which also incorporates the axle gear (driven by the other gears within the truck). At no time do the metal axles come in contact with one another. All wheels conduct power: from one side of the loco directly to/from one brush of the motor and the other through the loco's frame to/from the other brush.
The only way to cause an electrical problem through the trucks is if two similar trucks (both front or both rear) were to be installed on the same loco, as this would cause each truck to feed the brushes in a manner opposite to that of the other.
Actually it does not matter what trucks are used as long as they are hardwired properly.They whole idea is if the bottom wire is connected to the left side of the truck on the front make sure the rear truck is wired accordingly.The same idea applies to the top wire.
Pere Marquette and others. Recently went through the outslines of possible trouble shooting cures and discovered the problem to be.
After working on for a few months off and on, in the mood to put it, going down the touble shooting list...
And still no better, let's try another pair of truck on hand.
Problem solved.
Now, let's go back to the problem trucks.
As you and or someone had mention, the side steel contact strips, riveted to gear housing.
Notice bent out, straightened, reassembled and same problem.
Any idea, if a specific distance distance is required between wheel set and contact strip?
Technically, do I need to take a feeler guage, the same used to set bearing clearances on pumps(prototype) or older style conventional automotive ignition systems (ignition points) as a example of .030" clearance?
Is there a gap required between the wheelset and wheel and or should be Touching, which to me would cause a open circuit (electrical short)?
Went over truck parts closely and no apparent cracks.
Placed frame with trucks and no motor on track, without the benefit of a circuit continuity test lamp and or multi-meter. Turned on power pack and headlight bulb is lit, as should be, power, closed circuit, (No electrical short).
Rivets to housing and steel electrical parts tight, without any movement of same.
Begiining to wonder now, if behind rivet parts on both trucks in question, during the time of assembly at the former Compton, California manufacturing plant, that the assembler, left plastic flash, that would not provide sufficent electrical contact.
If this may be the case, then I think I need to return to Horizon's office in Long Beach for a replacement set?
Otherwise anything else, which I could overlooked on the trucks in question?
Love solving mechnical and electrical problems and would rather solve, a challenge on my skills rather than return to Horizon.
Run Eightwithout the benefit of a circuit continuity test lamp and or multi-meter.
Which is why you are still trying to find the fault.
Jim
No question is dumb, stupid or whatever one may want to call it.
That's how you learn by asking questions.
Kadees are mounted in Kadee plastic draft gears, drilled, taped 2-56. Standard proceedurers.
Changing out the trucks, the locomotive now runs fine.
Run Eight Pere Marquette and others. Recently went through the outslines of possible trouble shooting cures and discovered the problem to be. After working on for a few months off and on, in the mood to put it, going down the touble shooting list... And still no better, let's try another pair of truck on hand. Problem solved. Now, let's go back to the problem trucks. As you and or someone had mention, the side steel contact strips, riveted to gear housing. Notice bent out, straightened, reassembled and same problem. Any idea, if a specific distance distance is required between wheel set and contact strip? Technically, do I need to take a feeler guage, the same used to set bearing clearances on pumps(prototype) or older style conventional automotive ignition systems (ignition points) as a example of .030" clearance? Is there a gap required between the wheelset and wheel and or should be Touching, which to me would cause a open circuit (electrical short)? Went over truck parts closely and no apparent cracks. Placed frame with trucks and no motor on track, without the benefit of a circuit continuity test lamp and or multi-meter. Turned on power pack and headlight bulb is lit, as should be, power, closed circuit, (No electrical short). Rivets to housing and steel electrical parts tight, without any movement of same. Begiining to wonder now, if behind rivet parts on both trucks in question, during the time of assembly at the former Compton, California manufacturing plant, that the assembler, left plastic flash, that would not provide sufficent electrical contact. If this may be the case, then I think I need to return to Horizon's office in Long Beach for a replacement set? Otherwise anything else, which I could overlooked on the trucks in question? Love solving mechnical and electrical problems and would rather solve, a challenge on my skills rather than return to Horizon.
PM RailfanThose contacts are supposed to be bent away from the gearbox, and rub the back of the wheels. I hope you didnt straighten them so that they lay flat against the gearbox and dont touch the wheels. If so, they will only slightly make electrical contact when the wheels pivot from side to side in the frames. That isnt often enough to run the loco, making it appear sluggish. Or even loss of power. Those contact strips must be bent far enough out so that they stay in contact with the wheels no matter which way they pivot in the frame.
He is working on a Athearn BB engine. They do not use contact strips or wipers which touch the backsides of the wheels.
The path of power is wheel tread to axle shaft, to wheel bearing, to gear box side plate. Then one side plate touches the frame and the other side plate is the L shaped bracket which he said:
Run EightOther end of cables have female terminal connectors soldered on. Some call quick disconnect terminals. Attached to truck metal contacts
Which I interpreted as using spade connectors with wires in place of the long motor strip.
So yes a gap should be between the side plate and wheel tread.