Atharn RTR and KeDee coupler mis-match.

[Don Gibson]

They don.t match up - out of the box.

For 50 years Athearn has ignored NMRA (and KD) height. STILL!

I started out with Athearn (like everyone else) with their horn-hook couplers which could be 'clipped' to prevent snagging on switches, or using washers, that KD still supplies for that purpose.

When Athearn persisted in using 42" wheels on all their 40" wheeled engines, KD came out with 'Offset shank' couplers to bring an engine up to Standard's whileAthearn supplied the 'Horn-hook's - calling them "X2F's" - a term applied by NMRA for testing purposes. People used them thinking they were NMRA approved, but I think mostly because they were FREE.

KD prevailed and became the coupler D'Jour - The standard to be used or imitated.

Back to Athearn: I stopped buying when superior products entered the Market. . When Athearn recently re-engineered the Railpower product (as RTR) they improved the drive, shell, detail, but not KD coupler compatability. Their OEM s are too low, the #44 too high, and opening too narrow for # 30's, plus pilot opening prevents the lip on the standard KD coupler box from sitting 100% over the metal chassis hole. Result, forcing a 2-56 screw through the KD opening , or using (thesupplied)coupler box binds the movement in the coupler - side to side.

One CAN cut the ears off the KD coupler box and trim the 'lip' off to allow seating - but the KD is either slightly low - or too high - for those using a KD gauge. Accidental? I seriously have to wonder. It makes it difficult for those wanting to upgrade the plastic couplers, and when using with proucts using NMRA standards, it incorrectly put's the onus on the NMRA product.

NOTE to MODEL RILROADER:
When doing a product review and say "couplers can be replaced by standard KD's" does that apply to Athearn? - Or have they set a new standard?

Or am I in error?

[twhite]

Don--as both you and I have stated before, Athearn just doesn't seem to want to play by the rules. I have no Athearn locos--save one Genesis 2-8-2 Light Mikado that is SO light that I only use in helper service--but their new RTR freight cars are driving me nuts. I was always used to putting washers under their freight cars to bring them up to Kadee height, now with the RTR's, I'm having to file DOWN the bolsters to keep them coupled to my other cars. Why all of this 'independence' from a major company that by and large, puts out such good products? I don't run into this with cars from--and between--other makers. And another thing--ever try to convert those EZ Mate couplers to Kadees on the cars? I think they WELDED the coupler pocket covers on, or something--talk about a pain in the posterior!
Tom

[Don Gibson]

A bigger problem Tom, is less experienced "modeler's" don't know the difference and 'female dog' about the wrong item.

They buy Athearn - because of price - and then complain about NMRA cars being "too high", and as for the claim the Athearn's "match their P2K's" and Atlas engine's... 'Taint so. So much for the 'power's of observation'.

My point: Don't blame it on other brands.

[Anonymous]

Wonder if Horizon will have any input and the Challenger?

[BRAKIE]

Interesting Don.It seems that thousands use Athearn cars and engines with little or no problems.BTW all of my Atlas couplers sets to high PER THE KD HEIGHT GAUGE wheras other brands are on the mark.

[CP5415]

Wow

I just pulled of the shelf, 6 Athearn BB locomotives & coupled them one at a time to KD's coupler guage.
They all are equiped with KD #5's & guess what!?
They all are at the correct guage.!!!
Fancy that!
The only thing I've ever done to the couplers is install the KD's. THAT'S IT!
While I was at it, I also grabbed my Kato Business car, My Athearn Bombardier cars, my Proto PA & RS11, my Genesis 60' Gunderson Box car, my Proto Newsprint car, my Athearn RTR P42, an Atlas kaolin tank car, my Walthers Trainline FA, my IHC 4-6-2 & both of my Walthers Budd Dome cars.
They all are in KD's guage!
Why are certain people are having problems with Athearn when others arn't?

Kinda makes you wonder huh!

Gordon

[Anonymous]

I have found that the frame mounted coupler box on Athearn cars do not always fit up tight against the bottom (weight) of the car. Another problem is the weight may be bowed and pushes the coupler box down/up, depending on the direction of bow. I have gone to mounting the weight internally in the car, adding more to NMRA standards and cutting off the Athearn coupler box and replacing with the Kadee boxes shimmed down to the proper height. However, of all the kits out there, Athearns have the worst problem with this. One of the reasons I don't care for RTR!

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CP5415

Wow

I just pulled of the shelf, 6 Athearn BB locomotives & coupled them one at a time to KD's coupler guage.
They all are equiped with KD #5's & guess what!?
They all are at the correct guage.!!!
Fancy that!
The only thing I've ever done to the couplers is install the KD's. THAT'S IT!
While I was at it, I also grabbed my Kato Business car, My Athearn Bombardier cars, my Proto PA & RS11, my Genesis 60' Gunderson Box car, my Proto Newsprint car, my Athearn RTR P42, an Atlas kaolin tank car, my Walthers Trainline FA, my IHC 4-6-2 & both of my Walthers Budd Dome cars.
They all are in KD's guage!
Why are certain people are having problems with Athearn when others arn't?

Kinda makes you wonder huh!
Gordon

It sure does!

It suggest's somone's powers of observationare missing - perhaps mine, but ...
it raies the question: Are YOU putting your eyeballs level with the track?

I use TWO KD gages WITH a KD 5 in my MNRA guage

[Anonymous]

I just finished running 45 or so athearn boxcars in a variety of combinations.

Each boxcar was checked against the workbench gauge at the bench before hitting the track.

Once they hit the track, the plastic couplers failed requiring replacement to kaydees.

Some were higher than others, some were too low. One was replaced with a higher offset to fix a really low down problem.

Every athearn 40 footer in those three boxes ranged from 3 ounces to 3.5 ounces before all were weighted to 4.10 ounces excatly. Proto 2000 metal wheels (33") was put on. Everything considered as equal as I can make it with trip pins bent as needed to clear the gauge.

The age of the cars span about 30 years between the oldest in the fleet to one that looks like it was built at the factory as a kit last week. Or they all were built 20 years ago I dont have any way of knowing.

There were still differences in the couplers. I am half tempted to look at bent weights, bad underframes (Yup found 3 in this batch) and stuff.

I suspect the final common denominator of coupler height is your TRACK.

Are you too low in one spot? Too high in others? Perhaps that nail bent the gauge?

[Don Gibson]

high iron

USE TO bend up the coupler hoses too - I have 2 bending tools - until I found out it interfered with attemps to close-couple - Example:the car's hose prevented pickup by engines with snow plows and curved pilot's . The end of the hose would hit the front of the engine and open the knuckle.

Since one end of a car can sit higher or lower than the other end (and often does) I prefer to correct the CAR since metal couplers are remarkebly uniform. I think use of standards is excellent, but as "track being high - or low, doesn't the wheel action raise and lower the car accordingly?

One thing that has not been factored in and you have experienced, is ''Coupler DROOP'.

I also LIKE the look of close-coupling, so have priotized it

[bogp40]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Interesting Don.It seems that thousands use Athearn cars and engines with little or no problems.BTW all of my Atlas couplers sets to high PER THE KD HEIGHT GAUGE wheras other brands are on the mark.

Brakie,
I think you need to check your height gauge. Most of the Kaydee gauges have a slight droop to them. May only be 1/64", I can't believe you blame Atlas for high couplers, of the dozen or so Atlas engines I have, every one is dead on 25/64" to the knuckle center. The thousands using Athearn "with no problems- just don't know the differance or care because generally they just work out of the box. I agree with Don G. about the Athearn, back before all the new "stuff" I repowered, painted and deatailed my Athearns. I didn't care about the coupler/ frame height problem- because I would body mount #5 or #30s to mount plows or pilots. Get out your steel rule and give it a check-- 25/64" rail to center of knuckle, I know mine is way low...Bob K.

[Anonymous]

Aww man I forgot about the droop.

Back to the bench.

I love this hobby!

[Anonymous]

Don,

Ditto here. I don't buy Athearn any more, but once upon a time I had to shim every car to get the couplers to be at the right height after relplacing horn hooks with #5s. I don't own any Athearn locos and I model transition era so I have not bought any of the newer Genesis RTR models. Most other brands do not have the same issues with coupler height mis-alignment.

I'm not sure that thousands run Athearn with no problems. Guys are just fixing them or they complain about how hard it is to make stuff run. I suspect the sales of Kaydee washers are directly related to Athearn's products....Seems to me that this problem has been common knowledge for years....I'm surprised to hear it has not been fixed in recent releases.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Trainnut1250

Don,

Ditto here. I don't buy Athearn any more, but once upon a time I had to shim every car to get the couplers to be at the right height after relplacing horn hooks with #5s. I I suspect the sales of Kaydee washers are directly related to Athearn's products....

Perhaps Kaydee is a subsidiary of Athearn.

[cwclark]

I do know what you mean..I do use Athearn locomotives exclusively ..the older ones i have had no problem with mis-matched coupler height but the new Athearn Genesis RTR loco's are all off by as much as 1/4 "...every Kadee I install on the newer Athearn's require a lot of grinding with a dremel tool and on some of the locomotives i've had to cut out the top and the sides of the stock draft gear box and rebuild a new one that's wider than the original...it's a pain in the you know what but i manage to get the couplers to the right height eventually...lots of work bench time but eventually they work...you are right though..I wish Athearn would build there locomotives with this in mind..i have enough detail work to do on a locomotive without having to spend a lot more time getting the coupler height right...Chuck

[wt259]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cwclark

I do know what you mean..I do use Athearn locomotives exclusively ..the older ones i have had no problem with mis-matched coupler height but the new Athearn Genesis RTR loco's are all off by as much as 1/4 "...every Kadee I install on the newer Athearn's require a lot of grinding with a dremel tool and on some of the locomotives i've had to cut out the top and the sides of the stock draft gear box and rebuild a new one that's wider than the original...it's a pain in the you know what but i manage to get the couplers to the right height eventually...lots of work bench time but eventually they work...you are right though..I wish Athearn would build there locomotives with this in mind..i have enough detail work to do on a locomotive without having to spend a lot more time getting the coupler height right...Chuck

I have an Athearn/RPP GP60M that sits way too low. The plow drags, so the couplers come out too low too. Not sure if I can pull the trucks and use washers, or what exactly to do. This is the second one, sent the first one back, haven't heard anything yet.

[Anonymous]

I still have a few Varney paper sided cars on the layout, some paper sided Red Ball stuff, a Megow boxcar, Globe cars, the old Athearn metal cars; Silver Streak, Central Valley, Train-Miniature and other cars. Not many, and all have been extensively reworked to represent something. Point is, these cars required more than a little work to get the couplers to the correct height so they could operate reliably. Now I read that the equipment being manufactured today, detailed as it is, still needs work so the couplers will work reliably. Some things just do not change!

Steam, sweet smell of Heaven.

Tom

[AntonioFP45]

My Athearn BBs and the two RTRs are lower than the standard. I noticed that they are lower than my Roundhouse/MDC cars.

Athearn BB locomotives, quite low.

Guys, Don is correct. You have to look at the cars from EYE LEVEL.

Unless it's a really attractive RTR, I'm no longer buying Athearn freight cars or BB locomotives.