MTH VS BLI--ARE WE AT WAR?

[Roadtrp]

Thanks Elliot. I'll stop by the coffee shop some time.

I meant for my post to be more humorous and less crabby than it sounds when I read it this morning. I guess I was in a crabby mood after watching my beloved Twins lose a game they deserved to win.

[:)]

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Roadtrp

Thanks Elliot. I'll stop by the coffee shop some time.

I meant for my post to be more humorous and less crabby than it sounds when I read it this morning. I guess I was in a crabby mood after watching my beloved Twins lose a game they deserved to win.

[:)]

Jerry, in that regard I share your crabbiness. My comments are in the coffee shop, though you may find them slightly cryptic unless you go back a number of pages.

I think you would enjoy meeting Ed Murphy. He's an N gauger like yourself, and a Red Sox fan, but we don't hold that against him.[swg]

[twhite]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

QUOTE: Originally posted by twhite

I see we're already at war to some degree. Napoleon has indeed invaded Russia and winter's coming. Of course, who is Napoleon and who is Russia may soon be decided upon the Great Playing Field of purchases and orders, right? What I'm wondering, is after the K-4 (which I like as a prototype loco, by the way) are MTH and BLI going to continue to go head to head with other duplicate models? Since steam locomotives are such an individual choice--and they were among prototype railroads despite common wheel arrangements--there should be plenty of room for individual prototype locos from quite a few railroads, rather than "Okay, you do a ------------(enter your choice) and we'll do one too with more goodies. I hate to think that this is where we might end up going, especially since suddenly there's such interest among manufacturers in producing really GOOD steam models, these days. We don't need duplicates, we need more prototypes. Or am I having a sudden attack of Pollyanna?

Not to worry, MTH is Napoleon, and the HO market is Russia. The battle may be short, as the little tyrant has over estimated his army's strength, and under estimated the size of the land, and the power of winter. It will be a long cold walk back to France.[:0][;)]

Antonio, if Mike REALLY wanted to get into HO, he could have simply come out with a DCC engine. After all, DCC isn't patented. But, where's the fun in that?[}:)][:0][(-D][(-D][(-D]

Thanks, Big Boy. I think I'll just curl up on the couch with a copy of "War and Peace" until this whole thing is over.

[Anonymous]

That is interesting Elliot, my dealer refers to Mike Wolf as "Little Hitler" and only orders stuff if you prepay. Not enough demand I guess.
If MTH makes the minimum order as stiff as they do in O gauge, there will not be too many dealers for HO.
When someone with as Big a store as "Just Trains" does not stock or sell MTH there is something wrong.
dave.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by roxin2002

That is interesting Elliot, my dealer refers to Mike Wolf as "Little Hitler" and only orders stuff if you prepay. Not enough demand I guess.
If MTH makes the minimum order as stiff as they do in O gauge, there will not be too many dealers for HO.
When someone with as Big a store as "Just Trains" does not stock or sell MTH there is something wrong.
dave.

The whole Napoleon metaphore seemed to fit the situation quite well. I was reluctant to bring Hitler into this as the image seems more stark and frightening, even though the situation was similar.

I should clarify that Mike the man is a decent human being, our harsh comments are aimed at the business man who seems to have a reputation for being ruthless.

[Anonymous]

I guess I do not understand, how can a man differ in his personaites, the man,vs the business man. Wouldn' "the man, win over the business cutroat personalities and not be as ruthless?
I mean when Mike was a big hobbyshop and was lionels number one dealer, importing lionel copies on the side, then got to be the wholesale agent forLionel be satisfied?
To me it has always been a stupid move on MTH's part to become a wholesaler for lionel and then come out in competition as a retailer to your wholesaler.
What goes around comes around. Maybe it is MTH's time to eat a little crow.
dave.

[Anonymous]

BigBoy,

Don't you think it's about time for you to stop stirring the pot and taking cheapshots at Mike Wolf, MTH, and others. Frankly, I can't believe you're referring to other people as trolls when you're doing exactly the same thing, if not worse. You've been active on all of these MTH threads and most of what you've been saying is negative rather than positive.

How about giving this subject a rest, okay? Thanks!

[AntonioFP45]

Doug,

Cheap shots?? BigBoy has not fire any, LOL!![swg]

Sorry but I must disagree with you. Read the posts carefully.

Additionally on the "other" MTH related thread if you read the posts Big Boy has actually been discouraging trolling, not flaming it. IMHO, his comments have been down to earth , sincere and striaight forward and in fact has taken a leadership role in this forum as far as respecting other's views.

I'm only hoping that your comments above are not a "troll post". It was BigBoy who pointed out the trolling earlier on the other MTH related thread that several of us "fell for" and he suggested that we not allow ourselves to be "pulled in!".

Keep at it Big_Boy_4005,

You've performed well in an "unofficial leadership" capacity on this and the other rough riding trains!!

Peace Amigos!

[twhite]

Antonio--thanks. Since I started this topic, I was hoping that we'd keep to it--BLI vs. MTH and talk about the product and what we think might happen. In other words, give our opinions on the PRODUCTS involved and not use the forum for sniping at each other. I'm on several other forums--non-related to Model Railroading--and everytime we get to sniping at each other, the Webmaster jumps in and tells us to keep it civilised. So, guys, let's talk about the SUBJECT and save the sniping for personal e-mails, okay?
Tom

[AntonioFP45]

10-4 on that Twhite!

Even on this and related topics where there are definitely strong disagreements, lighting up the blow torch only serves to degrade the quality of the forum.

Peace!

[Big_Boy_4005]

Thank you for your support Antonio. I just got back to the forum, and read Doug B's post. His words have caused me to pause and reflect. Rather than make a hasty response here, I am going to take some time to review my posts, and form a proper reply. When complete, I will post it here.

[Big_Boy_4005]

OK guys, let me start off by apologizing to Tom for going off topic here.

Begin rant.[soapbox]

In reviewing this topic, I think things were going along very nicely until just the last few posts prior to Doug's comments. On page one I limited myself to responding to the question raised by Fergie, and not getting into a lot of commentary.

Perhaps where things started to fall apart, was when I made the remark comparing MTH's new HO venture to Napoleon's Russian campaign. That remark was intended as ironic humor in response to Tom's second to the last sentence, in the post that lead his topic. Fergie then chided me for taking two posts in a row ( an inside joke ), and asked another question. I goofed up and never answered Fergie.

Dave Roxin, with whom I generally agree, made the remark about "Little Hitler" and mentioned Mike by name. I immeadiately responded by trying to seperate Mike the person from Mike the president of MTH. In my opinion this is getting into a dangerous and counter productive area, and we don't want or need to go there.

I try to take great care in my posts to not confuse MTH the business with Mike Wolf the man who happens to be the leader of that business. This is a very important distinction.

I don't want to see us lose this opportunity to discuss the issues over some petty name calling. So please, let's pull back from the edge of the cliff, and I'll try to set a better example.

I must admit that I can get pretty emotional about this MTH stuff. I have very strong feelings, both positive and negative when it comes to MTH. To prove this point, I went down to my train room, and took some photos.

In these photos you can see the extent of my MTH collection. I also have Lionel, Atlas, Weaver, K-line, and Williams trains. The one thing I do not have is any MTH locomotives. I will not buy them because of DCS. While DCS can be made to operate with TMCC, in doing so, TMCC becomes a slave to DCS. I am not willing to accept that type of functioning on my railroad!!!!!

This is a terrible shame too, because MTH makes beautiful locomotive models.











I love SOME of MTH's products. I draw the line with DCS. I view it's creation as the single defining event that has lead us to this discussion. Regardless of it's quality I have no use for it. I resent the effects it's creation has had on this hobby and all of the fighting it has caused between modelers.

As for trolling, I think not.
If I was a troll, why would I put my real name on all of my posts?
If I was a troll, why would I have all of that information in my profile?
If I was a troll, why would I make all of these posts, and defend them?
If I was a troll, why would I have friends like Antonio and others defending me?
If I was a troll, why would I take the time to address every point of criticism?

I am not a troll, I'm the guy you see at protest rally, with the bullhorn, addressing the crowd. Mr Zimmer and his ilk are the counter protesters and hecklers, whose voices tend to drowned out by the cause's supporters.

End rant.[soapbox]

Sincerely,
Elliot Feinberg

[AntonioFP45]

[#ditto]

Hey BigBoy,

you don't need to defend and justify yourself. It's pretty safe to say that most of the crew that's been on this forum at least 6 months are familiar with you, your posts, and humor. As you've indicated this and the other MTH related threads managed to bring two groups together that normally don't mingle much. Even some of the MTH customers have been in agreement with many of the HO arena as far as their feelings on MTH's actions.

The threads, however, also brought out some of the MTH "hardcore no-matter-what" supporters that are going to blow torch [:(!][|(] anyone with a less than positive opinion as trolls, whiners, and pot stirrers. We can ignore them, or respond to them with class instead of torpedoes.

The main reason they and MTH's reps responded is because this forum does make a difference as far as keeping modelers worldwide informed as to current happenings!

When you think about it, as soon as something is posted in California modelers in New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Canada, The Netherlands, England, Australia can read it within seconds. Even though posts are compromised of mostly opinions and "some concrete facts" a company like MTH (once viewed by you as the elephant) will indeed pay attention to the ants as there are too many of us. For a company this translates into $$$$

Don't let the few critics that you have phase you and continue posting! [;)]

High Greens on your tracks!

[Big_Boy_4005]

Be careful Antonio, my head will swell up and I won't fit through the door.[swg]
(Translated: Thank you my friend.)

Seriously though, sometimes it is just easier to address one's critics squarely, rather than simply dismissing them. Doug B's tone was so calm, polite and proper, that it raised some doubt in my mind, albeit briefly.

Let's give Tom his topic back, and finish discussing MTH and BLI.

If this thing is a popularity contest with consumers, it sounds to me that MTH doesn't have a chance. Hobby stores aren't going to bother with MTH, unless their customers ask for it.

BLI is on the shelf and established with dealers and consumers. MTH comes along with a duplicate offering. Given their past actions, it seems to me that MTH is setting the table for a fight. If they can't win on merit, they'll sue their way into the market. That attitude makes me ill.

[twhite]

Bigboy: Don't apologize to me, I really like your posts. And the crack about Napoleon and Russia is pretty darned apt, I think--you inspired me to re-read the "Battle of Borodino" chapter in "War and Peace," and you're right on target, as usual. As I stated earlier, my main concern is that we're going to end up with duplication between the two companies, when in fact, there could--and I use the term 'could' with caution--be room for more prototype steam models without one company saying "Buy MY version of the (fill in prototype)--------because it's got X number of extras, and then we end up with a glut of K-4's or UP Challengers or N&W 2-8-8-2's on the market while other prototypes don't even make it to the drawing board. That's MY worry!
Tom

[Anonymous]

BigBoy,

I appreciate your comments although I still stand by my previous post. I just think that your comments in this and other threads kept this controversy going when it should have been exhausted days ago. Believe me, I'm not exactly a big MTH supporter and you probably own more of their products than I do. However, I just don't like seeing personalities and reputations being attacked whether we agree with their motives or not. Just my personal opinion.

As for Zimmer, he can be a nuisance but I don't see when he's threatened or attacked anyone. That includes this forum and others that I've seen him on. There's a history of feuding between him and Ben and quite frankly, Ben isn't the most objective person on this matter.

Other than that, your posts on other subjects have been informative and enjoyable to read!

Regards!
Doug

[twhite]

Hey, while I'm still on the forum--Bigboy, did MTH come out with a high-rail Allegheny about the same time that Rivarossi came out with theirs in HO? Reason I'm asking, is that there was a pretty handsome O-gauge Allegheny at my LHS when I went into get my HO Rivarossi, and I watched it trundle around the layout with some pretty interesting effects. Forgot to ask Bruce which brand it was--he was one of the first dealers in Northern California to stock MTH O--but it was sure impressive!
To

[Big_Boy_4005]

Well Tom, perhaps size does matter. You sound impersssed by O gauge, even if it has that ugly center rail.[swg]

Actually I have to admit that I don't know the answer to that. Rivarossi isn't really on MTH's radar, so if you did see similar models at the same time, it was almost assuredly a coincidence.

Lionel has also made some large steam engines. The O gauge market has been seeing the copycat wars for a while now. That is where MTH scored their most recent victory in court. The jist of the case is that Lionel got their hand caught in the cookie jar.

I still believe that part of MTH's gripe is that it was the Koreans that gave Lionel the keys. It was Lionel's greed and stupidity to accept the keys, and reach in the jar, that got them into trouble.

Now we move to HO, and see 2 models of the same prototype going head to head. WHY???

In a direct response to my question on the other topic, Andy Edleman tried to disspell the notion of guilt by association. It seems that BLI and the Korean importer named in the Lionel case share the same US address. Add to the mix the whole patent and QSI thing, and one can't help but wonder. What is going on here???

[JerryZeman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by twhite

"Buy MY version of the (fill in prototype)--------because it's got X number of extras, and then we end up with a glut of K-4's or UP Challengers or N&W 2-8-8-2's on the market while other prototypes don't even make it to the drawing board. That's MY worry!
Tom

Wy worry. I'd be hard pressed to find a steam locomotive in the roads that I model that hasn't been done in brass. I'm not talking about the latest offerings from Key, Division Point etc., but the older pieces from the mid to late 1980s and earlier. They are fairly reasonably priced. Look better too.[:)]

I bought most of my brass unpainted, which, in hindsite was probably a mistake, as I now have to find time to paint it (which I'm pretty good at, but it does take a lot of time).

The only advantage to the latest BLI stuff is the sound, and if I was that anxious for it, I could drop in Soundtrax decoders.

I dabble in three rail because of the sound and smoke (3rd Rail brass), and I'd just as soon leave my HO sound free. Given the smaller speaker size, I really don't like the sound quality in HO.

regards,
Jerry

[twhite]

Jerry--I understand completely. Actually, I'm about at a loco glut thanks to brass, myself, because I've just about exhausted the prototypes for my particular road. I'm mainly concerned with guys just developing their rosters. Okay, sounds Pollyanna, but I really hate to see an acceptably priced loco market that just gets glutted with two or three models. Makes me NERVOUS! And oh, by the way, both you and BigBoy--I grew up with that 'ugly' third rail, and believe me, if my garage were about twice the size, I'd probably be worshiping at the altar of Lionel and Williams right now. Not that I am not in love with HO, which I am, but oh my, you're right. Size DOES matter!

[Big_Boy_4005]

Hey Jerry, welcome to one of the side rings in our MTH circus. The center ring has calmed down quite a bit in the past week since Andy accepted your challenge. It still got another 2500 views in it's second week of release.

I'm really curious as to what kind of preparations you will have to make for the DCS test. I'll understand if you aren't at liberty to say.

Did you see my suggestion about inviting someone from Kalmbach?

---

Doug, I've noticed that it isn't unusual here on the forum to butt heads with people when you don't know them very well. While you and I may not see eye on MTH's behavior, I'm sure we actually have quite a bit more in common.

I've said this in a couple of other places, this stuff is like politics. This debate isn't going to influnce those voters who have their minds made up. This is a discussion of the issues for those who are undecided.

As for young Ben, I think he's a great kid. He knows a lot about trains, and can be very helpful. I get a slightly different impression when it comes to his take on some of the characters out here in cyber space. I had heard from enough other sources about Zimmer, but I don't normally go after anyone unless they have done something that I have witnessed. As active as I have been, I have witnessed a lot.

[Anonymous]

Elliot: being new here I do not know all the people with different names. Would it or not be prudent to list the trollers with different handles.
I fell for it on the other board as I guess I have been used to calling a spade a spade and always used my same login name.
I guess I have always addressed the issue straight on and not talked in circles.
There are many new names on the OGR. Are they just new double etc names of the sameold people.
thanks too that you agree with me most of the time.
I have been in O and with qsi since 1987 and have quite a large layout with mega steam engines.
I am now ready to get rid of my last MTH engine converted to a qsi 3000.
A MTH Greenbrier. I want to get the 3rd rail version.
dave.

[JerryZeman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

Hey Jerry, welcome to one of the side rings in our MTH circus. The center ring has calmed down quite a bit in the past week since Andy accepted your challenge. It still got another 2500 views in it's second week of release.

I'm really curious as to what kind of preparations you will have to make for the DCS test. I'll understand if you aren't at liberty to say.

Did you see my suggestion about inviting someone from Kalmbach?

---

Hi Elliott;

Yea, things have been pretty quiet on the other thread.

Andy and I are definitely going to tie up at Trainfest in Milwaukee, and we will probably make plans at that time. Andy is really busy right now getting ready for York, and then Trainfest. I was out of town part of the week and have an overseas trip scheduled just before Trainfest.

As far as getting ready for the DCS test, the biggest items will be to clean the basement, and straigten out track problems with the diverging entrance to my lower staging yard / return loop. Being as this is buried in my crawl space, I keep putting off this job, but it has to get done. Everything else is pretty much plug and play.

Saw your suggestion relative to inviting Kalmbach guys. I'll discuss this with Andy, at the very least I have the regular cadre of friends that operate the railroad that will be over to witness. One of them operates DCS on his home three rail railroad, the others are interested HO an O modelers. All in all, this should be a lot of fun.

regards,
Jerry

[bsteel4065]

How much would it be to buy a REAL K4?
It could end up being the cheaper option the way these guys are going.
Barry

[AntonioFP45]

Jerry,

For credibility purposes and considering that modelers around the world check this forum regularly, a member of Kalmbach (Sperandeo) or a reputable contibuting editor, like Tony Koester should be present. These guys are highly respected in model railroading circles.

The purpose of the prescence being not to give a "thumbs up" or "thumbs down" on the product, but just to verify in detail how the test proceeded and the results. May involve paying their transportation, but then again one of these guys might be willing to come in on his own. Hope you seriously consider this.

A comment above was made about things having quieted down on the other thread. Basically it appears that any and every thought that could be said about the litigation situation from both sides has been stated.

I sincerely believe that many HO, N, and O modelers got their thoughts and feelings across to MTH's representative's intelligently and sincerely.

BTW: I mentioned N scalers in my posts as they are part of the DCC arena and would also be affected by the litigation's outcomes

Peace out!

[darth9x9]

War? No. Competition? Yes!