RR Car Ferry Project

[karle]

Hi all I am building a model of a railroad car ferry and I'm looking for a source for lifeboats (not  life rafts). I checked the Walters catalog and none of the boats there are appropriate. Can anyone suggest sources for HO life boats.  Even the model ship websites I check come up nil. Thanks for the help.

[mlehman]

I dunno about bought ones, but JaBear whipped up a few nice little ones just last week. Take a peek here:

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/220823.aspx

[Motley]

Sylvan makes HO scale life boats.

Here:  http://www.internettrains.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=IT&Product_Code=SSM-DP-0020&Category_Code=

And here:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HO-LIFE-BOAT-Model-Railroad-Boat-Ship-White-Metal-Detail-Parts-SPP72-/400577764191?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item5d444b9b5f

["JaBear"]

Gidday Karle, while researching lifeboats I came across this link......................

http://www.crowriverproducts.com/11_CoveredLifeboat_Davits.htm

 I don't know what length these are in scale feet, but with the davits, could possibly kill two birds with one stone. Incidentally mine are 20 feet in length.

If you don't mind,are you building any particular car ferry?

Cheers, the Bear.

[fwright]

Unless the ferry was used for passenger trains - I remember reading of such an operation by the SP in San Pablo Bay - there would be no need or reason for more than one lifeboat for the crew.  Cargo doesn't need/rate lifeboats or liferafts.  In Army parlance (I was Coast Guard), "....certain losses are acceptable..."

Lifeboats would be used for ocean-going vessels or crossing the Great Lakes, but life rafts would be sufficient for harbor operations.  If the prototype modeled pre-dates life rafts, it's quite possible there would be nothing for a harbor or river ferry.

just my thoughts and experiences

Fred W

["JaBear"]

Gidday Fred, I've only researched, (read skimmed the surface) the Detroit River ferries and they all appear to have lifeboats. I say "appear" because though I haven't seen a photo, when they were self propelled, of one without a life boat, no doubt I would be proved wrong.

Any how this is just the excuse I've needed to post a link to this great photo, every time I look at this I am almost persuaded to sell all my gear and model the 1900s.

 http://www.shorpy.com/node/14494?size=_original#caption

Cheers, the Bear.

[zstripe]

Bear,

Thanks for sharing that pic,,,Without knowing,where it is at,,aside from the Ferry,,it looks like a part of the Chicago River,in winter....I like the arch bar trucks,also...

Cheers, 

Frank

["JaBear"]

Gidday Frank, in 1905 the "Detroit" was one of the Michigan Central Railroad Detroit River fleet, crossing between Detroit and Windsor. If you're interested enter, "Ambassador Bridge, Detroit, MI,United States", into Google Maps and you will see just to the right of the bridge the remains of three ferry aprons used by the Pere Marquette and Wabash. Go further right and across the river you will see the site of the Canadian Pacific Railway Ferry Ramp Locations. This was one river crossing, I gather back in the day there were others which haven't survived the developers.

Cheers, the Bear.

[zstripe]

BEAR,

I won't go into,,how many times,,I crossed the, ''Ambassador Bridge in Detroit'' on my way to Toronto,Ontario by truck,I came back,via,Sarnia,Ot,at Port Huron,Mi,,,to Grand Rapids,Mi. where CSX, had a trailer drop yard..I was leased to CSX Intermodal Trk Ops. at the time..A lot of times,I had more Canadian Money in my pocket than American,,,for anytime you gave them American money,they gave you back,Canadian money and kept the US money..

Cheers,

Frank

[richhotrain]

Geez, I like JaBear's life boats the best.  

I wonder if he would build some for me.  

I could pay for them with some of my Fiji War Bonds  

Rich

[Santa Fe all the way!]

Great picture jabear! I love the old steam tractor. I got a large model of one very similar to the one in the picture made by a local man in his upper 90's.

[tomikawaTT]

Need some HO scale 25 foot life boats?  A quick Google glance led me to several suppliers.

Of course, they are catalogued as 28 footers - in 1:96 scale.

1:96 is a common nautical model scale.  1:87.1 isn't.

Chuck (Ex-USMMA Cadet-Midshipman modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

["JaBear"]

richhotrain

I could pay for them with some of my Fiji War Bonds  

Gidday Rich, I'm not sure you've got enough. and that's just for the freight, thanks for the kind words though,.  I've been asked before why I don't model New Zealand Railways Simply its because of the cost of the locomotives and because virtually everything has to be scratch built., so what am I doing for my own first major project?, yes, scratch building  

Seriously I'd be looking at  Chucks option,thanks for the tip, there's some nice looking stuff available, if it wasn't for the freight costs to this side of the world.

zstripe.  I won't go into,,how many times,,I crossed the, ''Ambassador Bridge in Detroit''  Gee Frank the next time I start to try to" teach my Grandmother how to suck eggs" please let me know. 

Cheers, the Bear.

[zstripe]

Bear,

I hope I didn't sound,offensive in my statement,,sometimes I'm too blunt in my comments...But try a straw,on the eggs,,the trick is making the hole..

Cheers, 

Frank

["JaBear"]

Frank, if any one was offended by your statements they'd have to have a very thin skin, thinner perhaps than an egg shell.  

Cheers, the Bear. 

[richhotrain]

"JaBear"

Frank, if any one was offended by your statements they'd have to have a very thin skin, thinner perhaps than an egg shell.  

Cheers, the Bear. 

JaBear,

I was offended by Frankie's statement, but, then, I am offended by all of Frankie's statements.  

Rich

[MisterBeasley]

"JaBear"

Any how this is just the excuse I've needed to post a link to this great photo, every time I look at this I am almost persuaded to sell all my gear and model the 1900s.

Cheers, the Bear.

I must say, that's one fine photo.

And remember, a dual-era layout allows you to have twice as many trains!

[fwright]

"JaBear"

Gidday Fred, I've only researched, (read skimmed the surface) the Detroit River ferries and they all appear to have lifeboats. I say "appear" because though I haven't seen a photo, when they were self propelled, of one without a life boat, no doubt I would be proved wrong.

Any how this is just the excuse I've needed to post a link to this great photo, every time I look at this I am almost persuaded to sell all my gear and model the 1900s.

 http://www.shorpy.com/node/14494?size=_original#caption

Cheers, the Bear.

Very interesting photo, thanks for linking.  The passenger compartment appears too big for just the ferry's crew.  So I suspect there was the ability and the need to ferry a couple of passenger cars as well as freight.  It would be interesting to know whether passengers were ever carried. 

OTOH, I only see one lifeboat (possibly a second on the other side), which would not hold all the passengers the ferry was capable of carrying.  Typically, the more compact rafts would be used to make up the capacity difference.  The boats were for the ship's officers and senior crew - rafts for the rest!  And the addition of rafts was only after the advent of safety regulations that came about after multiple tragedies.  Sorry I don't have good dates about the requirements for and development of life rafts.

Fred W

 

[tomikawaTT]

I suspect the Shorpy photo is pre-Titanic.

The Titanic disaster was the catalyst for most of the mandatory lifeboat requirements, at least in the English-speaking countries.

That may not be a passenger compartment.  With four boilers, the stoker staff must have been large, and they (and the rest of the crew) may have lived aboard.  Narrow as the enclosed space was, it probably didn't have much floor space.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

["JaBear"]

Gidday Fred, What I find great about model railroading is the diversity of the subject. When I first got back into the hobby as an adult, (well  at least I got older, just not sure of the growing up bit) if someone had said I'd be researching lifeboats I would have laughed at them.

The Detroit , (I am paraphrasing from The Great Lakes Car Ferries by George.W.Hilton), built in 1904 had a requirement for a compliment of 34 officers and men in summer, and 55 in winter, and had the capacity for 24 freight cars or 12 passenger cars. Passenger trains were scheduled for about half an hour for the mile between Detroit and Windsor stations.

I am not sure when the practice of actually carrying passengers was discontinued.  In the book there is a drawing of the Transport another Michigan Central river ferry built in 1880, which does appear to have substantial passenger accommodations,  showing four life boats.

fwright

Sorry I don't have good dates about the requirements for and development of life rafts.

I wonder if the rules for life boats and rafts were tightened after the Titanic?

Apologies to Karle for hijacking his thread.

Cheers, the Bear

Edit. I see that Chuck has brought up the matter of the Titanic. The Shorpy photo I linked is "circa 1905".

[karle]

Hello Jabear and all.  FYI I am deep into building the car ferry Transfer (maybe 65% complete),  which did cross the Detroit river.  It was originally owned by the Michigan Central, later sold to the Wabash.  It had 5 life boats.  If I get the chance I'll post some photos.  Thanks for the sources for life boats, Jabear I would be very interested in how you built yours.  

["JaBear"]

 Gidday Karle so you're building the 1888 Transfer, as built for the Michigan Central,or as in her Wabash form?? I didn't realize how altered they were during their time in service. Looking forward to your photos, no pressure though. 

Without going into the somewhat convoluted reasons behind why I'm building a Detroit River Car Ferry I should make it perfectly clear I'm only building a freelanced version based on the Windsor and her sister ship Manitowoc found, amongst other good stuff on this great site here.................

http://teamtrack.xooit.com/t625-CAR-FERRY-around-MICHIGAN-State.htm

 Working from a plan I found on the web which came from the book The Great Lakes Car Ferries by George.W.Hilton and some dimensional information found on the delightfully named Bowling Green State University site.........

http://greatlakes.bgsu.edu/vessel/view/007675

and working from other photos I found on the web I drew some scaled drawings and established that I needed some lifeboats about 20 feet in length. Warning !!! Rivet Counters should depart Now!!!!.   None of the photos were really clear about what sort of lifeboat was needed so figuring that I'd like to row one with a pointy end, that's what I scratch built though in hindsight I'd stick with the double ended version as it may have been more correct and would have also meant one less build step. 

I had been given some off cuts of kiln dried kauri, (a New Zealand native tree used for shipbuilding back in the day) and fashioned my boats from that.

I should point out I have at w**k a band saw and a disc and belt linisher. To get the curve of the hulls right I used the Mark l eyeball and worked on the principle of " if it looks right then it must be right" plus I have advantage that the three boats will be at different positions and it will need a keen eye to notice the small discrepancies.  

The keel is cut from some 0.050" gasket paper and glued on using white PVA glue, like wise the supports cut from popsicle sticks.

The whole lot was painted with a gloss white rattle can. I was tempted to get a very fine tipped black felt pen and draw on the clinker planking but doubted my abilities, and besides thought it may have looked a bit cluttered.

The supports were hand painted grey. Next I got down on some of my wife's black sewing cotton and with the use of some thickish CA glue applied the life lines. Now this is where I think that exaggeration works in a modelers favour. Looking at prototype photos the lifelines are more closely spaced and nor as loopy, but I think that if I had managed to do them correctly they wouldn't be noticeable. The canvas was made from kitchen tin foil, thanks again to my long suffering wife, painted with a green rattle can which I already had and then given a rattle can matte clear coat. I could have bought a matte green paint can but am a cheapskate. I then made a cardboard template, cut out the foil, folded it to suit,and again used the CA glue and some more black cotton as the attachment ropes.

You may ask why? when there are commercial alternatives, I do like some of the offerings that Chuck  alluded to., but one of the big problems of living "Down under" is the Tyranny of Distance, a prime example being that while I obtained a 2nd hand copy of  The Great Lakes Car Ferries , in very good order from Amazon for US$ 20, it cost another US$ 27 to get it here and like I say I'm a cheapskate. That said I do purchase stuff direct from the States if the savings are big enough to negate the shipping costs. If I was to model a Great Lakes Car Ferry or larger vessel, I think I would look at resin casting the lifeboats.

Besides I find a certain satisfaction in scratchbuilding, are there any psychiatrists in the house??

Cheers, the Bear.

[ollevon]

Bear,

For me, being one who spent most of my life on the ocean, I have at first hand seen just about every type of sea going vessel afloat, and in my opinion, you have done an outstanding job on those lifeboats. As far as the rivet counters are concerned, I feel you have no worries.   your lifeboats look just about perfect. Great job.

  Sam

[fwright]

I have to agree with Sam - those lifeboats just look "right".  Very nice.

Just a little bit more lifeboat history, if I may.

Before the 20th Century, lifeboats were really multipurpose working small craft built to be used where the mother vessel could not go.  Powered by oars, they required sailors to power, navigate, and make use of them.  They would be used to ferry passengers in ports (or emergencies) but required some sailors who knew what they were doing to man them.  But there was never enough capacity in the boats to carry all the passengers, and often not even enough to carry all the crew.

When rafts for passengers first came into use, the operational theory was that the lifeboats would be manned by designated members of the ship's crew and tend to a group of rafts filled with passengers.  Ideally, each raft would also have a crew member assigned to lead the passengers in the raft.

Fred W

["JaBear"]

Sam and Fred, thank you both for your kind remarks, and also for your brief history of lifeboats Fred. I don't mind constructive criticism, but a "pat on the back" is even better, as long as I don't get big headed about it.I must admit that I am my own hardest critic and therefore my own worst enemy. The following is an example why.

Of course in the search for the "prefect" lifeboat I also needed to think about DAVITS. "Whats so hard about that", said I, " a davit ( and I can imagine Sam chuckling right about now) is a davit".Searching on Google and also books at the local library very smartly showed me just how Wrong!!! I was. So back to the photo I found with a forrard view of the Windsor to see what I could see. Well its a very good general photo but a get the detail I require It was getting rather pixilated. By going backward and forward from photo to davit images, i managed to convince myself that the Windsor was fitted with the Quadrantal type of davit. Note: Just because I am now able to write about different types of davits, I would hate anyone to get the impression I actually know what I'm on about!! The thought of scratch building three sets of quadrantal davits did not fill me with joy, not impossible, but a lot of work. To say that I agonized over what I was to do would be slightly melodramatic , but talk about being "as thick as a short plank   It took me long enough to think, "Idiot, I'm building a free lanced version . Common sense finally won out and I've now made enough of the Radial type Davit.

These are made from Tichy box car kit sprues, thank goodness, as I got a bit excited with the heat gun on my first attempt.

And just to prove how engrossed (obsessive???) I've become, blocks...

.... made from a Bowser kit sprue. I'll leave the final rigging until I fit them to the actual ferry.

Cheers, the Bear.

["JaBear"]

Gidday, I have been contemplating starting my own thread, " How to build a Freelanced Detroit River Ferry and get it completely Wrong", but with the information already here, my extremely liberal interpretation of his invitation 

karle

 Thanks for the sources for life boats, Jabear I would be very interested in how you built yours.  

 and with the hope that karle will come back on board, so to speak, and show how he is doing things properly, (and so I can pinch his good ideas), I will carry on regardless. It will also put my stuff, and hopefully others comments, tips, and useful information in one place.

From WPF......

my ferry apron, scratch built from 3mm MDF, and dimensional guesstimations from Google maps  http://smallmr.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/nw_docks.jpg  though the slightly more detailed photos I have found are, I think, from the Windsor side. This is the first time that I have hand laid track, I really am in awe of those who have built whole layouts by this method. As you can see in my second photo I'm definitly not game enough to have a crack at hand laying points.

The second photo was more to con myself that it really isn't that big a project, ( well it's not like a basement empire is it!!)

 

 

well thats all ffolks,

 

Cheers, the Bear.

[mlehman]

Bear,

That's a fine looking apron...just don't get caught wearing it

Do you have plans for using the ferry in operations? A fellow NMRA member is building a layout where he plans to use ferries as a source of interchange at one end of his line. He's going to set up a cart where they can serve as cassettes, rolling in to "dock" at his apron. He's building his own ferries, but using the Walthers apron IIRC.

["JaBear"]

mlehman

Do you have plans for using the ferry in operations?

Gidday Mike, most certainly, in fact I doubt very much if I’d build MY OWN layout if it was not for operations. I envisage that the layout will eventually comprise of several shelf switching layouts that happen to be joined together.                 

The ferry terminal is going to occupy 4 x 1500 mm (59.05512 inches), the joys of metrification , width, no more than arms length modules, built to conform with the AMG Guys and Gal,  http://modeltrains.kiwi.nz/  but to suit my purposes at home. So much for NO Compromises!!   I am building the ferry to be removable for transportation and, as currently planned, it will sit across two modules. I’m undecided whether I make the water detachable so I can use a separate rolling cassette system at home, I’m not going to let that stop me though, at least this hobby allows me I to make things up as I go along.

mlehman

That's a fine looking apron...just don't get caught wearing it

Just had a contract that I was supposed to start this week fall over at the last minute, so as her-in-doors is now the main bread winner, I'm now the house husband, at least I might get some extra modeling done. I don't wear an apron though.  

Cheers, the Bear.

"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."

• Reply

[mlehman]

I’m not going to let that stop me though, at least this hobby allows me I to make things up as I go along. Off Topic

Dang straight. That's also why I love it. Some folks get all hung up on the prototype thing, which I love and practice, too, and forget to have fun with it

Sometimes they're so grim, it's like they need a hobby to distract 'em from the hobby that's eating them.

I greatly prefer a more relaxed approach, even when I'm simply replicating, rather than inventing something new and unique.

And, hey good luck with the new job

Lots of that around here, too. Gotta get this diss done and get out of the house more...it does lead to a lot of modeling, so it's not all bad.

["JaBear"]

Gidday. Well I’ve made a bit of progress so it’s time to bore you all with an update. When I scaled up the small drawing of the Windsor I decided that the waterline at 21mm (.823 in) looked about right and would suit my purpose for three  reasons,  (1) as previously mentioned, the ferry is going on a modular layout and has to be transportable, (2) for operations the ferry will depart from the docking apron, and (3) though I’ve ventured into hand laying track, hand laying points is currently a no go area.

 

(I have been aware that hand laying points was commonplace in bygone years, and have been informed through this forum that there is FastTracks....  http://www.handlaidtrack.com/... but I consider I was very lucky being able to purchase track spikes locally and besides I like to physically see what I’m getting myself into before spending money, yeah I know I’mbasically whimping out.....)

 

So I am going to stick with what I know, Peco Code 100, .....http://www.peco-uk.com/.....and by inserting a SL-E98 Large Radius Y into a cut out in 3mm (.118in) MDF and then laminating it on to the “structural” part of the hull would achieve the “thickness” I desired and to that end I purchased a 18 x 300 x 1800mm (.708 x 11.81 x 70.86 in) laminated, finger jointed, clear pine panel, (made in, of all places Chile, heck the town I live in derives at least half its income from forestry!, so go figure??), to which I laminated my 3mm  MDF to. However when I joined up the apron to the hull it just didn’t look right so I laminated another layer of the 3mm MDF to the bottom.

Again, the size of the Y was just a guess but I figured that a Large is what I required so that I could change the direction using my big mitt without, hopefully, clobbering the superstructure. It also could have been an Insulfrog turnout as, for operational purposes, it is my intention that locos will not be allowed to go on to the loading apron, so any electrical contact is not necessary.

 

As with the lifeboats I used my sander/ belt linisher and MK1 eyeball to give me the hull form, though looking at the photos, it should be a lot more complex than I’ve made it.

A small ironing board or a large skate board ???

 

 

A Half track???

 

 

Work in progress (do I have enough spikes???!!!)

 

 

A carfloat on the "Red Sea".

 

Am I still enjoying myself?? Well yes, though I managed to wind myself up by thinking that I was going to possibly run out of track spikes, thinking that the amount that I had generally managed to mangle and or bend beyond redemption would be what I would need to finish, and then the hassles and Expense of sourcing a bag from the States, and the resultant time delays!!! I actually have ended up with some left over, no I haven’t counted how many, so was worrying about nothing.  Another thing, and I really should know better by now, is that every task takes at the very least 3 times longer than I initially think. 

 

Thanks for looking, Cheers, the Bear.