Length of HO Steam Engines

[stones fan]

I've Googled, Binged, and searched MR trying to find the length of HO steam engines with tender but with no success. I ordered the Walthers 933-3041 which holds engines up to 13". The largest engine I would consider is a 2-10-2, but smaller is OK also. My era is the transition.  I'm interested only in steam used for freight.

Where can I find this information?

[cacole]

Length is going to depend on the type of locomotive wheel arrangement and type of tender attached to it, so there is no definite answer.  For example, an 0-4-0 with slope-back tender is going to be much shorter than a 4-8-4 with extended range tender.

The nearest answer you'll be able to find might be by going to the manufacturers' web sites and see if they provide dimensional data.

I don't think the turntable you reference is going to hold a 2-10-2.  A 2-10-0 Russian Decapod, perhaps, but not the 2-10-2.

[stones fan]

Thanks for the quick reply! I tried looking at Bachmann's site, but no luck.

I'm wondering if anyone could measure the length of an engine or two with the tender and post? I am interested in 2-8-0's, 2-10-2's (any freight steamer used by Illinois Central, prototype built in 20th century).

[mlehman]

You can usually find the prototype engine lengths via wikipedia, Google or info listed on the relevant historical society's homepage. Take that and divide by 87 (for HO) and you'll get an approximate model length.

That number may still not be quite right. If it leaves you with a number well short of 13" you're good.

If it's a number close to 13" then you may have more to consider. Often, model loco-tender drawbars are longer than on the prototype to help the model get around sharp curves. Coupler mounts and pilots can also sometime be somewhat different than in real life to accommodate pilot truck swing. So it is good when things are that close to get the exact measurements of a model.

In many cases, however, you can do the calculation quickly, find you've got plenty of room and can then move on.

[cacole]

The only steam engine I have ready access to at the present time is a Bachmann 4-8-2 Mountain.  It measures 11" in total length, and 10" from front pilot wheel to rear tender wheel.

Hope this helps.

[stones fan]

Thanks! That's exactly the type of info I need. Even though your engine is probably passenger, that gives me something to go on! Yours would fit the roundhouse with no problem.

[G Paine]

Checking my copy of "Maine Central Steam Locomotives" by EB Robertson, I have found these lengths. MEC steam locomotives would be classed as "light" versions of these types. The drawings in the book come from MEC drawings, and the lengths are "over the coupling faces". I have not included some of the earlier locos like 4-4-0s, etc.

0-6-0 with standard tender, built 1909-1918, 58 ft
0-8-0 with tender, built 1922, 68 ft
4-6-0, bulit 1918-1920, 72 ft
4-6-2 Pacific, bullt 1907-1914, 76 ft
2-8-0 Consolidations, built 1910-1914, 66 to 71 ft
2-8-2 Mikados, built 1914-1924, 79 to 82 ft
2-10-2, built 1920-1923, 83 ft

[stones fan]

Thanks for the proto info.  From this, the 2-10-2 should fit: (83ft *12in)/87 = about 11.5 inches, which will fit inside the roundhouse I ordered. This helps!!!

[Anonymous]

stones fan

Thanks for the proto info.  From this, the 2-10-2 should fit: (83ft *12in)/87 = about 11.5 inches, which will fit inside the roundhouse I ordered. This helps!!!

When calculating the loco length from prototype dimension, allow for, say 1/2" for couplers and a longer draw bar between loco and tender!

[jrbernier]

  The MR 'review in 2007 lists an overall length of 13" for the Walthers Proto Heritage 

USRA 2-10-2 - Not sure if that is over the engine/tender or if that figure includes over the couplers.  That roundhouse you list is designed to be used with the Walthers 90' turntable(12") - as mentioned in the other thread.  

Jim

[selector]

stones fan

Thanks! That's exactly the type of info I need. Even though your engine is probably passenger, that gives me something to go on! Yours would fit the roundhouse with no problem.

A 4-8-2 arrangement is what's known as the Mountain Type, almost always (but not necessarily) used in freight mountain service.  Some roads pressed their Mountains into passenger service on occasion, but only in a pinch.  They were good for slower service needing more tractive effort due to their drivers being, in most cases, of a lesser diameter than those on the Northerns, Hudsons, and Pacifics (4-8-4, 4-6-4, and 4-6-2 respectively).

I have a BLI Hudson 4-6-4 that fits easily on my 90' turntable from Walthers, but so does my Niagara 4-8-4 with 'centiped' tender, the long one.  I just have to jack up the last couple of axles on the tender to do that.  My BLI Union Pacific 2-10-2 with its short tender fits nicely onto the turntable.  Placing any of my articulated engines and the rather large Pennsy Duplex T1 on the 90'er are, to put it nicely, a joke.

BTW, that's the Atlas version of the HO roundhouse behind the Walthers turntable.  The distance from the lip of the turntable to the doors of the roundhouse is about 4", give or take...I forget exactly.  I cut the rails to run fully into the house and to the pit lip of the TT.  Then I fashioned a plaster of Paris pad around all the rails leading into the bays and stained it to look like concrete.

[JWhite]

Thanks! That's exactly the type of info I need. Even though your engine is probably passenger, that gives me something to go on! Yours would fit the roundhouse with no problem.

By 1955 the remaining 2300 and 2400 series 4-8-2s were mostly doing freight service on the IC.  The Spectrum Heavy Mountain makes a good starting point to kitbash one of these series IC locos.

I will measure some of my brass IC steam and my proto 2-10-2s and post it for you when I get home.

[don7]

cacole

Length is going to depend on the type of locomotive wheel arrangement and type of tender attached to it, so there is no definite answer.  For example, an 0-4-0 with slope-back tender is going to be much shorter than a 4-8-4 with extended range tender.

The nearest answer you'll be able to find might be by going to the manufacturers' web sites and see if they provide dimensional data.

I don't think the turntable you reference is going to hold a 2-10-2.  A 2-10-0 Russian Decapod, perhaps, but not the 2-10-2.

He is referencing a roundhouse, not a turntable. He also states that his largest engine would be a 2-10-2. But does not give us any more detail as to which manufacturer.

I have a Bachmann Spectrum USRA 2-10-2 and it just fits the 90' turntable, I also have a BLI Heavy USRA and it is too long for the 90' turntable.Tender on the BLI is substantailly longer.,

So if the OP is talking about getting a Bachmann Spectrum 2-10-2 a 90' turtable would JUST fit, most likely any other 2-10-2 would be too long for a 90' turntable.

[7j43k]

For the turntable, the length of the engine-tender is not as important as the overall wheelbase plus a flange allowance.  Things can overhang off the ends.

Here's one way of dealing with an overlong locomotive:

If the roundhouse stall is too short, consider that real railroads occasionally added extensions on some or all of the stalls.  It would be fun to do on a model.

Ed

[tomikawaTT]

The UP also jacked up the ends of Challenger tenders when they got into short turntable country on the east end of their original route.  It was also fairly common to have ten feet or so of tender outside the roundhouse doors, especially in places where freezing weather was unlikely.

Tender length is often critical.  The PRR was known to put humongous Lines West tenders behind H10 class 2-8-0s.  The original equipment H10 tender was about as long as the bunker on that sixteen wheeled monster.  Later, the New York Central had 4-10 pedestal tenders with huge rear overhangs to allow long-wheelbase locos to use 100 foot turntables.

Crandell, the 4-8-2 Mountain was pretty much as you described - but the 4-8-2 Mohawk was a dual-service flatland flyer that was quite capable of substituting for a Hudson on an overweight section of the 20th Century Limited, or hauling heavy WWII troop trains.

For a really extreme example of mismatch between two locos of the same wheel arrangement, check the Texas and Pacific 2-10-4 against Santa Fe's version of the same wheel arrangement.  Welterweight, meet Hercules.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[selector]

Agreed, Chuck, and the Norfolk & Western's K2a's with their roller bearing rods and 70" drivers when they were upgraded, were fast enough to stand in on passenger consists as well.  As I said, though, as a general expectation, with some notable exceptions, the Mountain class was meant for freight and heavier trains hauled at slower speeds over grades.  The war years saw some unusual application of locomotives due to demand, as an example of how the railroads adapted.  The C&O even used their 2-6-6-6 Alleghenies to pound the rails at the head end of some long troop trains.

Crandell

[7j43k]

selector

A 4-8-2 arrangement is what's known as the Mountain Type, almost always (but not necessarily) used in freight mountain service.  Some roads pressed their Mountains into passenger service on occasion, but only in a pinch.  

Oh, no.  GN bought both their 4-8-2 classes as passenger engines.  They were generally used in the mountainous sections of the railroad.  The first, the P-1's, turned out to be too slow.  They had 63" drivers.  They were transferred to freight service.  The P-2's had 73" drivers and were quite successful.  They were in passenger service from their delivery in 1923 until 1945.  They were shifted over to fast freight as diesels took over in passenger service.

Here's a picture of one of these beauties:

Ed

[G Paine]

Someone had mentioned extending a stall on the roundhouse; this is a post construction photo of the Walthers roundhouse I built for the Boothbay Railway Village layout. The kit is a 3-stall kit with a 3-stall extension kit. The base kit includes parts to extend one stall. Someone else in our group bought the kits, so I am not sure which one it is.

[charlie9]

the proto usra heavy 2-10-2 icrr version measures 13" over the pulling faces.  it's wheelbase will allow it to fit on a 11 3/4" turntable with considerable overhang front and rear.

the bachman 4-8-2 heavy is just a little shorter than the 2-10-2.

the 2500 class 4-8-2 made by hallmark is a little longer than the 2-10-12 i mentioned above.  it measures 13 3/4" over pulling faces and needs 12 1/2" of turntable just for the wheelbase.  this is with the drawbar coupled up in the farthest hole.  close coupling would save you a little room.

the PFM Lima type 2-8-4 is 13 1/2" over pulling faces and if your hostler is really good, the wheels will fit on to a 12" turntable.  again, this is not close coupled but in the farthest drawbar hole.

an Alco 2-8-2 is about 12" overall.

do you need the measurements for the sunset brass 2-10-2?  if so, I will have to dig one of mine out and check it for you since they are not on the layout at this time.

suprising how the 4 axle big drivered engines are longer than the 10 drivered ones.

Be happy in your work.

Charlie

[tstage]

I've usually found that locomotives basically come in three lengths: short, long, and real-l-l-l-ly long.

Tom