Okay I know this is going to get a lot of diverse opinions. I have an around the room switching layout. 15 industries and about 45 cars. 2 engines. I have tried computer switch lists, manual switch lists and car cards. They all have their good points and bad points. But how do you all operate?
John
The Dames Point Industrial Railroad
http:\\dpirr.blogspot.com
Eh? LION has a timetable...
Here you can download a .pdf of the LION's String Table.
and here is the TRAIN REGISTER, it is a different timetable than the one shown above. The book sits in the Tower, and the tower operator records trains as they enter and leave the railroad. Express trains are not show since they do not originate at this interlocking plant even though the plant does move the trains between Lenox Avenue and Nevins Street.
Here you can download a .pdf of the LION's Tower Register.
The LION has NEVER run the entire 24 hour (real time only) sequence, but once I get two more trainsets converted to operation on this layout I will give it a try. He has a pause button that will stop all trains, timers, and the Railroad Clock, to fix things that need assistance, or to go to prayers, meals, sleep, work or otherwise get a life.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
I have used car cards & computerized switch lists. Here are my thoughts:
Car Card/Waybiil
Computerized Switch Lists
Myself, I have car cards. For a transition era layout, the car cars/waybill format simulates the 'paper' handled by the conductor. For a modern layout, the computer generated 'switch list' sort of fits in with the era. I am going to build a new layout and have been thinking about transition vs modern this time. The entire car card vs switch list thing will be part of the 'thought' process,
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
I use computerized switch list. There is a randomness to them.
As an owner, if you are setting up the ops scheme, YOU KNOW what is going to happen all the time. With a computerized switch list, the same cars don't go to the same four places as a car card system sends them.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
Can I ask what program you use to set up your lists?
jbu50Okay I know this is going to get a lot of diverse opinions. I have an around the room switching layout. 15 industries and about 45 cars.
I use car card/waybills since I'm in control of how many cars arrive on the interchange,the amount of pickups and setouts.
I use a very simple system.
The car cards look like this except the card would say return to CSX via reverse route..I forgot to add that to my example.:
Each car has 10 different waybills that look like this:
When the car is empty the car's card is in the pickup box and will read return to (say) BN via reverse route..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
gandydancer19With a computerized switch list, the same cars don't go to the same four places as a car card system sends them.
Elmer,
With car cards, the waybill is separate - it gets pulled after the car is spotted at the last industry. I use a 2 position waybill - the front is the CAR ORDER and the back side is the WAYBILL. When the loaded car is delivered, the waybill is pulled and put in the back of the car order/waybill stack. I have 6 days(or operating sessions) of car order/waybills made up. I 'pull' 1/6th of them each day - These are the car orders that the car distributor needs to find perspective empties for.
I think a lot of folks just do not understand how this works and keep 're-cycling' the same waybill on the same car each time - and get the results you described. Our club had a 50' Soo Line flat car with a lumber load keep cycling between the Pt Charles yard and the lumber yard at Deer Creek. When the car returned to the yard, the yard operators would just flip the waybill and off it went again to Deer Creek. That is when we started pulling the waybill cards after the load had arrived at the consignee. Another advantage was that we did not 'load up' one end of the layout due to these miss-bill actions. I pull all of the delivered load waybills between operating sessions - about 20 minutes of work.
With Flex-Bill switch lists, we generate the switch list based on empty cars(or cars we deem 'empty') at our main classification yard. The job switch lists are generated and given to the operators. I have 'tested' this myself and we will be going to this 'full time' after the 1st of the year. The folks who have 'played along' with me catch on quite fast. Car card systems more closely track the cars in a prototypical fashon, but there is a 'learning cycle'. As you witnessed, the 'results' some times are predictable due to operators not understanding the 'Big Picture'. These 'bloppers' can happen with any of the systems...
I also use car cards and waybills, and have a LOT more waybills than car cards. Thus, when I pull, say, a box car waybill from a box car's card, it goes in the back of a long, skinny file box, behind a couple of hundred other box car waybills. It may be a railroad month before it gets back to the front. In the meantime that box car may have moved, been spotted etc. under the instructions on four, five or a half-dozen other waybills. Then, since I have forty-odd box cars, when that first waybill gets to the front of the file it only has about a 1 in 45 chance of going into the car card for the same box car.
My car cards do double duty. I enter the car's inspection, repair and modification data on the back. Much easier to read than the 1:80 scale data stencils on the car itself...
Since my absolutely longest train is 20 cars, and since eight of those cars run from staging to staging on a single waybill, the card packs never get overly bulky - even though I also have locomotive cars (with clearance cards instead of waybills) and cards for non-revenue and passenger cars. For cars that are standing still, I have properly designed and organized card boxes at every station, including the staging yards in the netherworld.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
jrbernier I think a lot of folks just do not understand how this works and keep 're-cycling' the same waybill on the same car each time - and get the results you described.
Jim,I agree..I use 10 different waybills for each car but,heres the rub..On my past ISLs a car appears on the interchanged,spotted,unloaded and returned to the interchange that car is removed from the layout and not be seen again till all cars has been cycled though the off layout "interchange" or off layout terminal and the best part it doesn't take all that many cars to that either.
I also avoid any car that stands out-oh,gee whiz there's that rusty Railgon again or there's that pink WSOR boxcar again.You can fool the mind with normally weathered cars but,any car that stands out our minds tend to remember it more then your average weathered (say) NS boxcar.
What is this flex-bill system you mentioned? I've not heard of that.
If you type "Flex-Bill System" into Google, several companies that sell it will show up.
I did that already. Nothing I saw had anything to do with model railroads. It was all business related.
In my many years of Model Railroading I have used all of the various types of popular Operations Schemes.
Sequential
Hand Written/Computer Switch Lists
Car Cards/Waybills
The Modified PIN System - which is my current method.
With all of the above system except the PIN System the set up time to reset the COMPLETE layout after a long OPs Session is much greater!
WHY?
As the Layout Owner HAS TO CHECK every car and its location against a list or Cards someplace along the line!
With a Sequential System - every car and card has to be checked to see that they match Car Number and Location!
With Computer Switch Lists - every car has to be checked that it is Spotted at the right Industry or the next time the Computer Generates a Switching List (and a car is NOT where it is supposed to be) will upset the whole List – especially if the cars picked up need to be on an OUTBOUND Train later in the Session!
Car Cards/Waybills – again they need to be checked when you Flip the cards – but it is not as Critical as a Computer Generated List.
With the PIN System – one can easily scan the cars in a town and determine exactly which cars need to be RePINNED just by looking at the PINS on the tops of the Cars!
If a car was mis-spotted (as in wrong color) for the Town or Industry the NEXT Crew will just move the car to its proper location either in the Town or the NEXT – so the Layout Owner really does not have to do anything with that car – the operating Crew will.
The PIN System and CC/WB & Seq Cards will usually self correct – a Computer Sw List will never self correct – as the Computer will just keep ASSUMING the cars have been properly spotted.
The PIN System is a lot quicker to learn for a NUBE! Associating Colors is a LOT faster than having to READ and REREAD the Lists or Car Cards.
And if Colors are NOT easier – then WHY do so many Layout Owners COLOR Code their Car Cards?
When having to Reset a layout with over 1100 cars – every second counts.
I have heard stories of Layout Owners taking days to reset the layout – and they were using CAR CARDS!
Doesn’t sound like much fun to me!
I usually spend about 45 minuses resetting my 2500 sq ft layout – maybe an hour if I have to reset all of the Coal Trains!
BOB H – Clarion, PA
Please explain the PIN system. Does each industry have its own colored pin? How do you decide which car is going to go to what industry? What happens when the car gets to that industry?
jbu50 Can I ask what program you use to set up your lists?
jbu50 Please explain the PIN system. Does each industry have its own colored pin? How do you decide which car is going to go to what industry? What happens when the car gets to that industry?
I think he meant the Tab on Car system. I had used it for quite a while before I went to the computer program.
The way mine worked (since I expanded it) was as follows:
Each town had a color. Each type of car had a color. Each industry had a letter.
I used plastruct ' I ' beams that were cut about ½ inch long. The sides of the tab were painted with the car type color. (You make that up yourself). The flat inside part was painted with the town color. On one side was where an empty car was going to pick up a load (industry 1), and the other side was where it was being taken to after being loaded (industry 2). The industry letter was marked on the town color block with a sharpie marker. When the tab was laying flat, there are two bars that face up. These were painted white or black. Black if the car was empty and white if the car had a load.
My system worked as follows: Cars started on a yard track for a specific route. Tabs were pulled randomly from a container and put on the cars with no tabs, empty side up. All the cars on a particular track were put in a train and delivered to their respective industries. Cars that were loaded (with tabs) and at the industries were picked up by that train also, and taken back to the yard and classified on tracks for the next train going to their town destinations. At the end of a session when all trains had been run, the empty tabs on the cars at the industries were turned over to indicate they had been loaded. Cars with loaded tabs at the correct industries were pulled from the cars and put back in the container. Tabs on cars in the yard were not touched. When a car did not have a tab on it, it was picked up by any train and taken back to the yard.
Control panels had a small color block on them to indicate the town color. All industries had a letter on their roof somewhere. Thus you could look at the tab on the car and see where it was supposed to go.
So the system sort of worked like car cards except that you didn't have to hold a bunch of cards.
cacoleIf you type "Flex-Bill System" into Google, several companies that sell it will show up.
There is a 'Flex-Bill' Yahoo Group out there. Once you join you can download the demo version(cannot 'print' the switch lists, but you can do everything else). The 'files' section has the demo download. It does require MS-Access or you can download the MS run-time component for free. That run-time module can be downloaded from the 'link's tab of the group.
You can configure it so that you can use AAR codes like XM/LO/HT or the newer UMLC car codes, or even create your own. The system is very flexible and you can print out switch lists in a number of formats. Since there is no database of freight cars needed, you can just 'capture' that new ExactRail FBOX box car you bought and use it for a car order. The product costs about $50..
Thanks everyone for their thoughts and ideas. It seems like there are a lot of ways to operate a railroad, depending on how easy or complicated you want to make it.. I think for now I am going to stick with switch lists. Its just me running the railroad so writing up a few switch lists is not that big a deal. I hope to have a YouTube video posted in a few days of the entire railroad.
several months back I saw that the person/persons that produce Rail Op were having some problems with the program( do not remember the exact problem ) , Some people were saying not to purchase the program. do you know if this issue has been resolved or not please PM me and let me know. Otto
Otto,
Rail Op has been around for some time. They have 'fixes' available for download to registered customers. The software is not cheap; and being full featured, there is a 'learning curve' to the setup/operations.
Why not go out to the web site and look around. They is also Rail-OP user's group...
http://www.railop.com/index.php?main_page=index
Jim Bernier
Thanks Jim, I've used Rail Op twice before on another persons layout, I did not have a problem with it. I just seen that there had been some problem(s) with it . I did try to use "Ship It Program" but kept having problems with industries ( mainly the coal mine) empties in & empties out. Shipments started to drop off after the second generation, after the fourth no coal being shipped( checked all the variables, added new power plants to increase usage noting worked). I finally called the person who produced the program and he said I had an old copy(version 1.2 they were on version 6.0) he said send him the disk plus $95 and he would send out the updated program. I'd only had the program for a year and 7 months, I told him that's what I paid for the original. Maybe I should have checked a little better on the program. Otto
I use car cards & waybills generated by an Access database I wrote myself. I primarily use 2 cycle waybills. I have car card sized switch list forms available for anybody that wants to handwrite a switch list. I have CC boxes for each track.
I have experimented with JMRI Operations a freeware switch list application and within a reasonable amount of time was able to roughly duplicate enough of my current operations that I could have operated. I would take a lot more work to exactly duplicate the car movements I get with CC&WB operation in the JMRI operation.
I am in the final stages of modifying my Access database to produce either 1/4 size or car card sized single use waybills to experiment with how that would work. They could be used in place of CC&WB or to support handwritten lists.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
I have two N-scale layouts and use two different systems. I suspect the one you choose will depend on the nature of your layout.
At my summer home, the Cha-Cha Chesapeake Industrial RR is a 2' x 8' countertop switching layout, essentially two industrial districts with their own small yards, three interchanges and a number of industries. There, I use the excellent, free Switch List software
(http://www.vasonabranch.com/railroad/switchlist.html)
on a Mac computer to generate switch lists, then I tag the cars to be moved with color-coded pushpins (the Color-Coded Tack or Tab-On Car method). There's no paperwork at all, but I did have to drill tiny holes into the tops of all the freight cars.
My winter home has the larger Bolero, Lindy & Tango RR, a 2.5' x 16' L-shaped, point-to-point plus continuous running layout that supports trains going from one town to another and industries along the way. There, I usually use a car card/waybill combination because it suits the flow of operation better, although I do use Switch List occasionally without the color-coded tacks.
There's an excellent free car card generator at Dallas Model Works (www.dallasmodelworks.com) along with other very nice online software for running your railroad realistically.
The usual disclaimer: I have no connection with any of the companies I've listed.
Have fun! Much of the enjoyment is in the search.
-- Tom
Each Town has its own Color (called the BASE Color) which is the main color of the PIN.
The Pins are Vinyl/Plastic covered TACKS with the Center Pin removed.
I then fill in the inside of the underside of the Tack with Poster Putty which is what makes it stick to the car – it doesn’t affect the Cars paint finish and makes it easy and quick to remove the Tack/PIN.
I then paint a colored DOT on the PIN – which represents the Industry for that town!
I use MAP Flags colored to match the PINs placed at each Industry in a TOWN!
I have a master List of all Industries and the Car Type that each would need (whether Loaded or Empty).
This master list would be used whether I was Setting UP Car Cards or Switch Lists or Sequential Lists.
One MUST know that each Industry on the layout does (Manufacturers or Required to run the business) and this requires a lot of thought or research on the part of the owner!
I have a master PIN BOARD with all of the extra PINs on it.
They are stuck to a piece of Shelf Glass (1/4” thick and nearly unbreakable) – This covers a sheet listing ALL possible Color Combinations of PINS and the associated Industry & Commodity that can be sent to the Industry (which eliminates improper Car Types getting sent to an Industry that would never use the car – as in Stock Car at an Oil Dist or Refinery).
As I walk around the Layout doing a Repin – I look over each car at each Industry and can see if the BASE Color of the PIN on the car is for that town (Reynoldsville is BASE RED on my layout).
So if all of the cars in Reynoldsville have RED as the base color then I NEED to Pull the PIN off the car and replace it with a different PIN. If the car was not moved last session (and they ALL won’t get moved as there over 1100 on the layout) I will leave them as they are (which cuts down on the Repinning time).
I usually will Repin the CAR with an OFF LINE PIN (White/Black – Black/Black – Tan/Black).
I can also repin the car to an online industry by placing the appropriate PIN to send the car (Tank Car from Engine House Empty Fuel track to Kittanning Gulf Oil Depot – Olive/Blue). The first Color is the BASE Color and the second color is the Center Dot.
I continue pulling Pins and replacing them with new PINS so that all cars with the Base RED have been removed. The only time I do not do this is if the CAR has NOT been spotted due to too many cars at the Industry it is supposed to go to! (same as the HOLD box with Car Cards)!
I continue doing this to ALL of the rest of the cars on the Layout – It goes very fast now that I have been doing this for over 10 years- as I have memorized most all places on the layout (I have over 150 switched Industry positions on the layout)!
I don’t have to spend any time reading Lists or Car Cards to see if the Car was properly spotted as the Colors are on top of the cars and easy to read. I have LOTS of light so it is easy to make out the COLORS.
I have to use some judgment when repining the cars as certain car types can only go to certain places.
Grain Covered Hoppers are not assigned to a Plastics Plant or vise-a-versa.
So I just don’t blindly slap on PINS – this also keeps different cars going to the Industries and very few are repeat cars except the cars locked to certain businesses. My Kaolin Clay Slurry Tank Cars only have ONE place on the layout to go to – so they will be seen back at this Industry on a fairly regular basis.
This is much more random than any Computer will ever generate! ;-)
If I would need to send cars for Clean out – they are repined to the Clean out track – same goes for Reffers needing Reiced – just pin them for the Ice Track (if I had such a need).
During OPs Session longer than my normal 3 to 4 hours ( as I have run as long as 12 hours at a time) – I can randomly repin cars throughout the layout by grabbing the PIN Board and just begin repining cars – this allows the Operators to continue on with their OPs Session (during the 12 hour OPs – we run 3 – 4 hour sessions as one session is equivalent to an 8 hour day).
I spent quite a few years developing the basic Industry Lists and in having used ALL of the other OPs Systems knew all of the strange ways cars needed to be routed and found that I could do them all with the pins – I have YET to find a situation done with another OPs System that I can NOT do with the PIN System!
There are only 2 things negative about the PIN System and they are – the PINS on the tops of the cars and those Operators that are color Blind!
BOB H
cmrproducts jbu50 Please explain the PIN system. Does each industry have its own colored pin? How do you decide which car is going to go to what industry? What happens when the car gets to that industry? John Each Town has its own Color (called the BASE Color) which is the main color of the PIN. The Pins are Vinyl/Plastic covered TACKS with the Center Pin removed.
I could be mistaken, but if I remember correctly in the original version of this system the pins (really tacks) were actually stuck into the tops of the cars. The putty method is a much better idea.
maxman
Yes it is a much better system!
When our Club first decided to go with the PIN System they initially rejected the idea as they were NOT going to drill holes in their cars!
So I had to come up with a different way to keep the PINs on the cars
The Poster Putty worked great and left no marks to affect the cars finish!
It may mark up some cars that have NOT had the Weathering sealed!
BOB H - Clarion, PA
I've used the CCT system before and was setting up for my current layout, but didn't like the idea of drilling the cars. Ove your suggestion for using poster putty. I know what I'm doing this weekend now.
Howdy, Bob (CMRProducts)
I agree that the car tab system is simple, easily explained and quite wonderful - except that my JNR freight stock is (mostly) painted flat black. The prototype didn't steam up the Kurobe gorge with multi-colored manhole covers on the car tops. Then, too, my waybills can convey a lot more information than a simple, "Drop this car at (fillintheblank.)" Specific car requirements, special handling, dwell time for loading/unloading... Some of my waybills cover four moves.
As for, "Resetting the railroad," I've never done it. I deal with each train as it works or terminates - a minute or less per each. The railroad always moves forward, although the calendar resets - at railroad 2400 on 30 September 1964 the next clock-tick takes place on 1 September 1964. That's why events scheduled for the first week in October will never happen. In the meantime, trains keep moving - midnight isn't a pause point.
Your comment about resetting coal trains tickled my funny bone. On the TTT, coal units never even have their one waybill turned. The empties disappear under the loading bins and descend into the netherworld to repeat their one-way trip. Shortly the same car numbers, now loaded, appear from under the bins, exchange the colliery shifter for the road loco and proceed down the hill, moving on the same waybill that was in the combination card the last time that happened (and will still be in it next week...)
The nice thing about this hobby is that there is no one right way. As Kipling wrote, There are eight and forty ways of creating tribal lays, and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM IS RIGHT!.
Happy Railroading.
Chuck and Others
By RESETTING the Railroad is the SAME as you flipping the cards over!
Most everyone using CC/WB goes to each town and takes the cards, checks to see if the cars have been spotted properly then flips the card in the Waybill to the next position.
I just remove the PIN and replace it with the cars NEXT MOVE (new PIN).
I can do it faster as I can see all of the PINs as they are on the TOPS of the cars!
YES – the Garbage Can Lids don’t look Prototypical – but then I AM NOT a RIVIT COUNTER – I OPERATE!
I don’t need Scenery to OPERATE! Just My OPINION!
It also makes it a lot easier on the crews (especially NUBEs) as they don’t have to decipher a lot of Gobbly Gook on the cards as to LOAD VIA etc. They don’t have to carry a stack of cards or continually sort through them to figure out the car to spot.
WHY? Because the Operators only needs to know ONE THING – where does the car go!
All of that info is on the PIN on the car and no need to sort through cards.
Now I, being the Owner, needs to know the Commodity and if the cars is Loaded or Empty etc. I have this info listed on my PIN Board and I actually KNOW what each of my Industries DO. I don’t have to rely on a Car Card to tell me this!
And the PIN system will allow very young OPERATORS to run the layout as they are just COLOR Matching to place the cars in the INDUSTRIES! But they are getting into OPS – and isn’t this what we are realy after?
My 5 year old Grandson can OPERATE with the rest of us and sometimes does a better job switching than some of my Regulars.
The biggest complaint I have heard from OPERATORS about the Car Cards is that there is so much useless info on the cards that they have to wade through to figure out where to spot the cars (just because they are not familiar with that Layout Owners system) as we travel around to MANY other area layouts to run on!
I first thought the same thing when I first ran a layout using the PIN System – how do I know where go with these cars (REMEMBER I originally used CC/WBs). Once I was shown how the system worked (less than 2 minutes) I found that it is so much easier and faster as I didn’t have to keep propping the cards against the sides of the cars figuring out which cars needed spotted or picking up the stack off the floor as we try to switch!
I have introduced probably 40 or more NUBEs to the world of OPERATIONS and probably seen twice that many turned away from OPs by the CC/WB system.
A NUBE is intimidated enough when they first walk into a NEW layout to run on – they don’t need the CC/WB to make things worse!
YES – we are usually given a Conductor to go along with us but do we really learn the CC/WB if the Conductor is doing all of the work and we are just moving the engine?
While most cases it isn’t that way – but others it is and I have been on that end of the stick too many time as the Layout is running fast Clock and taking time to explain things is slowing the layout down.
No the NUBE is more lost and just goes through the motions and NOT learning the Layout or the CC/WB or Switch List – This isn’t Right!
Everyone runs the way they want. It is their Layout. But OPs on a Big Layout isn’t just about ONE Person if the Layout Owner built the BIG Layout for Multiple Operators. The Layout Owner has to think about them (the Operators) and IF he doesn’t and makes thing so complicated - the OPERATORS won’t be back!
While some can say they only run by themselves, which is great – It sure is a lot more fun to have a Group in and make the layout work as the Owner envisioned!
Your Choice!
BOB H,I tried the pin approach back in the early 60s and then Doug Smith had a great article in MR(61 or 62) and I been sold on that method since then.
I do use a simpler trim down method...I pull the waybill when I spot the car and now the car is ready for pickup-see my car card example in my first post..
BTW..I also tried the color sticker waybill method but,found that wasn't for me.