Wheels sparking

[DigitalGriffin]

So I unpacked one of my older Proto steamers last night. I haven't ran her in three years.  When I put her away, she was in fine working order with a Tsunami installed.

Last night I dropped the tender on the tracks and it kept loosing power everytime I moved it.  There was also arching/sparking by the wheels.  I double checked the track and it's clean

So the question is, what's causing this?

 

[jeffrey-wimberly]

Could one of the tender trucks be reversed?

[bogp40]

DigitalGriffin

So I unpacked one of my older Proto steamers last night. I haven't ran her in three years.  When I put her away, she was in fine working order is a Tsunami installed.

Last night I dropped the tender on the tracks and it kept loosing power everytime I moved it.  There was also arching/sparking by the wheels.  I double checked the track and it's clean

So the question is, what's causing this?

 

If the tender trucks are free to rotate around 180 degrees this could be your problem w/ shorting. Not sure what engine you have to know the proper orientation of the insulating and conducting wheels. If the turned truck isn't the proplem, then a short is present somewhere in the elec path/ wiring at a wiper or inside the tender to the mini plug for the engine.

I assume it ran fine when stored, so it is doubtful that the decoder smoked, but can't rule out a problem there as well. I would start w/ the obvious checking that a truck didn't get flipped around. This is the most common problem w/ tender troubles. Not all trucks can do this especially on some detailed equipment w/ chains, ladder interference etc.

[wjstix]

DigitalGriffin

Last night I dropped the tender on the tracks and it kept loosing power everytime I moved it.  There was also arching/sparking by the wheels.  I double checked the track and it's clean

Did you also clean the wheels?? Just because the engine was packed away, the wheels could still have some corrosion on them.

BTW one argument some people have used against cleaning track and wheels with alcohol is that it makes both clean but "dry" and that can lead to sparking. Not sure what you use to clean the track, but if it's alcohol maybe try something else, or after cleaning put on a little Wahl clipper oil.

[rrinker]

 Unless your rails are badly scratched from using abrasive cleaners, or the wheels are sintered metal liek older AThearn ones, there shouldn;t be any sparking on straight level track. I never put any liquid on my track, it would only attract dust. I also don;t clean my track, because I've never had to, but that's a different story. Outside of cleaning off any 'oopses' from painting it, that is. Paint's a good insulator.

              --Randy

 

                   

[modelmaker51]

All liquids do not attract dust! Laquer thinner doesn't, it evaporates, I use CRC 2-26 Electronics cleaner (avail @ HD & Lowes) and it actually repels dust and dirt. I only clean my track once or twice a year, (the more you run the less you should have to clean yor track).

If the locos have been stored a long time, I certainly would give the wheels a good cleaning. DO NOT USE GOO GONE!

Randy, you stituation seems to be the exception, did you Gleam your tracks?

[doctorwayne]

modelmaker51

....Randy, your situation seems to be the exception, did you Gleam your tracks?

Not necessarily:  I don't clean track either, except after painting rail or applying ballast or scenery near the tracks.  I don't Gleam track, either.

Wayne

[modelmaker51]

So, what do you two attribute this to?

[richhotrain]

Is the arcing/sparking occurring with the wheels on both tender trucks or just one of them?

Rich

[DigitalGriffin]

It's Proto 2000 tender with chains on the truck, so I can't reverse the trucks.

It's arching on all the wheels.  I'll put some conductalube on wipers.  But unfortunately I'm out of track cleaner to put on the wheels. 

So I'm wondering what I can use as an alternative to clean the wheels with tonight?

(Thanks for the ideas guys) 

 

[richhotrain]

I have used denatured alcohol with great success.

Another alternative is the Bright Boy eraser.

Rich

[jeffrey-wimberly]

All I use on my loco and car wheels is 91% alcohol. Works great for me.

[rrinker]

 Cleaning the track with a liquid that evaoprates is one thing, putting something that leaves a residue on the idea that htis will stop arcing, that's a different story.

 

 As to why I don't seem to have to clean my track - well, I never did the gleam thing. My layout is in a caprted room (spare bedroom..well actually the main bedrom, we cleep int he spare LOL), and I do not allow the cats or the dog in there unless I'm in - the little cat has done a full tour though, while the big cat it too fat to jump up that high and the dog is too small to do it). I do have it air conditioned in summer, set on 76 just so things don;t get too hot, but since the AC unit is back in the corner where my workbench is, the middle of the room is a bit warmer, probably no more than 80. In winter it get nearly as warm, so I keep the valve mostly closed on the radiator. I run all metal wheels, NEVER plastic, I change out any plastic before I even test run a car. Cars that come with metal wheels keep them, for themost part, most others are replaced with Proto 2000 wheels. A couple of random ones that had vastly differnet axle lengths have Reboxx wheels, but 94% are P2K, maybe 3% are Branchlines that came with the cars, 2% are Atlas that came with the cars, and the last 1% are Reboxx or Kadee,

 However, the thing is, my previous layout was in an unfinished basement - bare cement floor, open ceiling. All I really ever needed to do there was periodically blow or vacuum the dust off, didn't have to resort to track cleanign cars or pads - other than cleaning off paint residue from painting the rails.

 Track on both layouts was 100% Atlas Code 83 NS. On this one I was going to make turnouts with Fast Tracks jigs, and even that I had made for Atlas Code 83 rail rather than ME.

 On the club layout though we usually have to runt he cleaning train once a day or once every other day of a show. That has a CMX tank with acetone, and a pair of Centerline cars, one with a handiwipe to make sure the acetone is picked up and one with snother roller, maybe the Cratex one. But this is a modular layotu that spends in between time packed in small trailers in a non-climate controlled storage building. ANd is displayed in open public venues with who knows what in the air. However, even that, I think the problem is more one of loose joiners on the fitter sectiosn rather than the track actually being dirty. Everyone runs IM wheels, I'm the only one with P2K for the most part, and I do notice my loco wheels get dirty fairly frequently ont he club layout. But then again, some of the modules are over 20 years old and likely were cleaned with abrasive cleaners, which just makes them total dirt magnets.

 Some peopel say it's DCC vs DC, but that can't be true - Wayne is DC, while mine is DCC. Same clean results. So it's not the pwoer source.

                --Randy

 

[doctorwayne]

rrinker

.....Some people say it's DCC vs DC, but that can't be true - Wayne is DC, while mine is DCC. Same clean results. So it's not the power source.

                --Randy

 

I don't think that it's the wheels, either, Randy, although that may be a factor with dcc.  I run mostly plastic wheels, although if a car has metal wheels, it doesn't get banished.
I do think that a clean environment plays a big part in track cleanliness, though.  My layout is in a finished room in the basement - drywalled and with a suspended ceiling, although the floor is unpainted concrete.  I never sweep the floor, although it does get periodically vacuumed with my shop vac.  The room is unheated and not air conditioned, either, although it's well insulated with not much variation in temperature throughout the year. 

While it's unlikely to be the cause of the OP's problem, I repaired a brass loco for a friend a couple of months ago.  It would run but only for an inch or so in either direction.  While it needed some other adjustments, the cause of the problem was grease hardened in the gear teeth.  When the loco's gears encountered the hardened grease between the very fine teeth, the open-frame motor was unable to overcome the resistance, with the current draw jumping drastically and tripping the power pack's overload.  It took some effort with an X-Acto blade to chisel the hardened lube from between the very fine teeth. 

The older Proto steamers, at least the 0-6-0 and 0-8-0, didn't have tender pick-up, so if that's the case, it may be only the drivers which require cleaning.

Wayne

[georgev]

I guess my first question is what happens if you flip the loco on it's back and put a test lead against the pickup wheels.  If the loco picks up from the drivers on both sides, does  holding the test leads against just the drivers make the loco run?   

Does this particular tender actually pick up power? Is it from both rails? I have some locos in which the front truck picks up from one rail and the rear tender truck picks up from the other rail.  Again, what happens if you apply power to the tender wheels? 

You don't need anything sophisticated to do this.  When I have to test a decoder equipped loco I put a piece of foam rubber on the layout, prop the loco upside down with some foam blocks or wood, and connect test leads to the rails with alligator clips (or wrap the lead around the rail).  DC locos (or those with decoders removed) get tested at the workbench with an old power pack. 

George V.

[gandydancer19]

I have found that really chemically clean track can be too dry for good electrical wheel contact.  This can also cause some sparking. 

I spray a tiny amount of WD-40 on a finger and wipe both rails with it for about a foot.  Then I run a loco through it and around the layout to distribute it.  By doing this, I improve the electrical conductivity between the rails and wheels.  This has worked really good for me for years with no gunk build up.  My trains usually also have a track cleaning car in them that uses a masonite pad.

[Lake]

Since you did not say if you removed the shell I will ask.

Nothing loose inside? No wires shorting out?