Tom
Even if the modeler makes more than one copy I would still say it qualifies as a form of scratch building as long as the modeler created the original design from scratch. However, you do raise another issue with the process i.e. when does it become 'manufacturing'? This discussion can get complicated. Does only the first unit get called 'scratch built' or 'scratch modeled' and the rest 'manufactured'?
As someone already said, I'm not sure I would want to be on the NMRA group assigned with the task of coming up with the official rules.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I can't speak for other designers out there, but I grow a strong attachment to the first delivery, or what I call "test models" or "test prints". If the test print passes QC, that model joins my roster and earns a spot front and center on the layout. When I commission the bulk order, I tend to see those like any other manufactured model.
I should also note, perhaps some members here will remember my traditionally scratch-built "Supply Caboose" that I built in this thread: http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/t/204256.aspx
Well as I began working on the Pickle Car, and the upcoming Steamdonkey Crane on Flat car, I completely forgot I had just built that Supply Caboose. And I was really excited about the Supply Caboose too! I hope that's not a sign of A.D... oh, look! Shiny!
Re: NMRA contests. I think the ruling committee would have the easy job. In rational thought, it's easy to see how scratch-building on a computer can be just as labor-some, if not more so, than scratch-building by hand. And for proof, if I wanted to enter a 3d printed model, being the designer of that model, it would be very easy to prove I did in fact design it. Heck, I could design my signature into the undercarriage if I wanted. ;)
The difficult part would be in explaining all this to the guy your 3d printed model just beat. Ever since the advent of computers, the assumption is that anything a computer does is "automatic". While this is no doubt true for many things, it's also more often than not completely false. Drafting for example. A computer makes it easier to draft a building, however the amount of design, skill, and time that goes into it is no different than the days of paper and pencil. Ok, it might save a bit of time in plotting the design, however "drawing it out" is only a small percentage of what it takes to be an architect. And let's not forget the extensive task of programming the software...
-Mark
www.MarkWatson3D.com
Gidday, Whatever the process is eventually called when it comes to the competition aspect it, to my mind, would surely have to be entered into a separate category. The disciplines involved may be similar but the skills are not and before I start offending folks, please let me explain.
From time to time in my day job I'm required to work from drawings and while I've had no formal education in that area have been called on to draw up various repair schemes and modifications, something I not only am comfortable with, but also enjoy. However if I was asked to do the same thing using a computer, I wouldn't know where to start and personally don't think that I have the inclination to learn. (Old dogs, new tricks). That is definitely not to say that I don't see the huge advantages that CAD drawing and design offers and also realize that it's not "magic" but the result of some fairly serious learning and hard work, and as Mark points out, "...lets not forget the extensive task of programming the software..." , which is why I think that a separate category is required to recognise those particular skills.
I would presume that the "competition" in that category would come from who was prepared to put in the hard yards when it came to scale fidelity and detail, though I presume that could be limited by the level of technology that an individual was able to access.
Besides, without wishing to reopen that can of worms, look what happened when the model railroading publications first allowed digitally enhanced photographs to be entered into their photo competitions!
Lets not go there!!, just think how we're lucky to witness an exciting new development to this already fascinating hobby.
Cheers the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
Why couldn't the NMRA have a separate category for Computer Designed 3D printed models? I must say that tiny stagecoach is very impressive.......
Wayne
Modeling HO Freelance Logging Railroad.
Well, I think that 3D printing is just fantastic; a Star Trek-style 'Replicator'. An image in the 'pattern buffer', & a few seconds (lol) later - you've got your Z-scale whichamacallit.
I really don't think that copyright is going to come into it too much. ALPS printers, for example, COULD print money, but I haven't seen any arrests - the cost of the equipment keeps it in the hands of the more serious graphics designers, instead.
All that said, I have an ALPS savings fund started, & I also want one of these...maybe I could get the ALPS to pay for the 3D printer..hmm...or should I do the credit card on the 3D printer & use that to buy the ALPS? Decisions, decisions...
as some have already said, scratchbuilding suggests one of a kind ... handcrafted
and while a lot of effort may be required to design and create the files for the printed (i write, test and review software, and know how time consuming even something simple may be), once done, the same result can be reproduced ... hence it is no longer one of a kind.
too bad there isn't a name for the design/drawing process
how long will it be before people can design/draw something on their computer, and send files to some web page and get a fabricated model (like getting printed circuit boards)?
imagine being interested in a particular 2-8-0 engine for some small railroad and being able to create or modify a CAD file,and get a 3D printer house to fabricate the engine shell that can be put on an existing 2-8-0 engine chassis.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
To me, as long as the modeler has built a unique, "one of a kind" model, its "Scratchbuilt" (as opposed to buying a kit or finished model from a manufacturer). The fact that one can easily make more of them is not really the point as once you have made one you could cast more whether in metal, resin, or 3D printer plastic. For contests however, maybe there should be subcatgoies of "Hand-crafted" and "Machine-crafted". The tricky naming point is that even for a truly hand crafted project, you might use CAD to draw plans and then use traditional manual methods to cut out / fabricate so can;t just say Computer or No-Computer. On the other hand, if you call it 3D printing, is that too limiting? What if one uses photo-etch and or CNC milling machines etc?
Anyway, I think Mark Watsons models are pretty fantastic. My main interest lately is building HO Brass locomotives for CB&Q for which no one makes in Brass or Plastic. I am currently using CAD to do the designs, and Photo Etch, CNC, and lost wax casting to make the parts. While I am not interested in making 3D printed plastic locomotive models (I guess I am a metal snob), I think this will be the way to go for making casting masters.
Also, I have found that the hardest/longest part of a project is finding good prototype information (drawings, clear photos etc) regardless of how the model will be made. Throw in conflicting information from different sources and the fact that locomotives were modified over time and...but thats a different topic.
BruceC
Good point, since like I stated in my previous reply, there is considerable skill involved getting a nice model out of a 3D printer, but it is a completely different set of skills than is needed to turn a box of wood and styrene into a nice model.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
bigpianoguy!
Very funny! Thanks for the humour. Forward us your address from prison!
I tend to agree with NP2626. I need to escape computers after being lashed to one at work. That's what model railroading is about; relaxing and doing things that are personal and pleasurable.
That being said, I can see a real area for modeling small human figures, barrels, machine tools, etc that are normally rather expensive castings. The issue is getting a good model in software to send to the 3D printer. Therein, comes the rub...........There are many pre-done computer models, but how much in MR has been done?
Richard
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed
I've been watching this for years and keep waiting to buy one as they get better and cheaper. To me, it is definitely a model making process--since that's what you're doing for work or play. They're 3D models to some scale if not a prototype.
It takes a lot of work, education and skill to get it right and include the details/dimensions to scale. Not the craftsman skills in typical scratchbuilding however. Maybe another use of the term CAM--Computer Aided Modeling.
Kind of reminds me of the digital vs film camera debate.
I may have missed it, but the NMRA calls it "Rapid Prototyping" and yes it is permissible for "scratch building". Rapid Prototyping is just another tool to use and requires considerable knowledge and skill to use. There are a couple restrictions at the moment such as: The modeler must have entered all the information into a CAD program himself/herself and actually been the one to push "send"..... It is being discussed (big time) as to how it will change contests and the AP program. It is being embraced as the new "WOW" in the hobby. Major discussion this week on one of the NMRA Yahoo sties.
I may get one myself as the price goes down. What I will have to do is actually learn how to use a CAD program..... I had one on the old computer and couldn't make heads nor tails of it!
73
Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO
We'll get there sooner or later!
We are witnessing the beginning of a whole new aspect of the hobby!
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Dave Absolutely and I stand amazed what the N Scalers are doing with -call it as you will..
Understand as a kid I seen my dad take brass stock and build a steam locomotive that would fit a Penn-Line or Varney drive..
Now I'm seeing N Scalers using a computer program to design locomotives,cars etc and have them built.
Its so mind boggling.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
This technology is really great for N-Scale guys....the size of their projects can keep the price down quite a bit. HO guys have some wait time yet until the price Shapeways charges settles down a bit. Just an FYI...the detail Shapeways can do right now blows away the machine I use that we just bought 6 months ago- to the tune of $45k. Ouch.