Lawyers and Model Trains

[Anonymous]

Are we in for years of legal wrangling in this hobby? UP is going after anyone who makes trains with the UP logo or any fallen flags that they have absorbed. And now, Broadway Limited has taken their speed control modes out of the locos they are shipping due to threats from Mike's Train House. MTH holds three patents covering digital command control, speed control (BEMF0, sound, smoke generation, sound synchronization and just about every other technological advancement in the hobby you can think of.

What do you think?

jerry

[krump]

sick, it's FREE advertisement and promotion for them, and in my "legal" opinion is gravy for the company (does NIKE do that with runners???), it is not a copyright violation in my consumer opinion - I'm not buying the model UP for self gain or my own personal benefit - however it does benefit UP when I run "their" promo train on my layout in the basement. the hobby will suffer by their greed and stupidity... did UP buy the rights to smother their logo over all the engines in north america or just the deisels... just a thought

[Anonymous]

i have no problem with it....its all legal..and they have the right to do what there doing

[dehusman]

Krump: So you think Nike just lets anybody put a "swoosh" on anything they like?

Not.

You have to pay Nike to use the swoosh and if you use it without paying they will prosecute you.

Dave H

[krump]

only if you buy nike....[:)]
nike makes the runners, but i doubt up makes model r/r[;)]

just a thought

[Anonymous]

Legal? Perhaps it is,but precedents change and what was deemed legal one day may not be the following.
UP's demands are ludicrous.Its one thing to want licensing, its another to demand ownership of tooling etc.
I will say that this is going to be the wave of the future in many aspects of our lives.
When you consider we graduate 7-8 attorneys for every engineer in this country and they all want to make a living,its obvious things will get worse before they get better.
We wonder why crime is up and goes unpunished.
Theres no money in it for the lawyers.
There is far more profit in letting loose the corporate dogs of war against a small manufacturer or in this case a small industry.
While they may have the Legal Right by definition,it doesnt necessarily make it right and if this is allowed,you can bet the entire toy industry will be scrutinized by every major corporation out there.
Whats Next? Wastinghouse vs Kenner EZ Bake???GM Vs Mattel Hot Wheels or perhaps the US Army vs Hasbro's GI Joe!!!!!
When Money drives the morality of man,All Mankind Suffers!!!!!

[philnrunt]

Tileguy- I don't know about the other two, but I'm putting my money on the US Army in that GI Joe battle. One thing Joe has going for him, tho, is no matter what you do to him, he won't talk!

[AntonioFP45]

The MTH lawsuit against QSI will have an impact on the advancement of DCC it MTH wins. See the "FEB UPDATE" thread that explains the fundamentals of the situation. All we can do is wait.

As repeatedly stated, the UP litigations won't cause a major financial impact on the manufacturers from licensing. Car modelers and Airplane modelers are still purchasing kits that have been "officially licensed" for years. It's the "amount of impact that the manufacturers want to pass on to us that becomes the issue.

Hang in there!

[Anonymous]

I look at the situation of the hobby today and I fear for its life. This legal action on the parts of Union Pacific and Mike's Train House has done serious damage to the foundations that make up the driving principles of the hobby. From the very begginings of the hobby, model railroading has been about creativity, resourcefullness, fun, and most importantly friendship. No one was worried about Union Pacific not making money from royalties for models produced with their roadname, In those days, modelers were happy to have anything decorated at all in their roadname. Some railroads like the Santa Fe thought it imparitive that models be made in their roadname and paid manufactures like Lionel to make them. I feel that we have just passed through the golden age of model railroading. Everyone better get really good at scratchbuilding, making decals or dry transfers, and making parts they need, because given the state of affairs, I fear that manufactures of model railroading equipment won't be around much longer. I just heard rumors that MTH won its suit against Lionel for their Train Control System, (DCC for three rail basicly) and the judgement was 40,000,000. That is quite a chunk of change ladies and gentlemen. I doubt that if you totaled up Lionel's total sales since they opened for business and adjusted for inflation, I doubt you would get that.

I fear the model railroading hobby is going to die a much tortured premature death because of people like MTH and Union Pacific.

[Anonymous]

oh well i have no problem painting my own engines...as long as U.P. is around in real life im happy.

[Anonymous]

Can you take styrene, or brass and fashion an SD70M out of it? Because of UP and MTH. In about 5 years, I think your gonna have to.

James

[Anonymous]

i have plenty of Athearn SD70M's thank you.

[Anonymous]

The hobby today is stronger than ever if you measure it by the shear variety of high quality products we enjoy.

Fifty or so years ago, serious modelers had to make due primarily w/ Varney, Mantua, Silver Streak, Ulrich, Ambroid, the bare beginnings of rubber-band drive Athearn, Walthers' craftsman kits, early MDC/Roundhouse, and some really awful white metal and brass pcs that were trickling in to the US market. Most all track was brass, and flex track was typically attached to none too forgiving fibre tie strips that shrunk and buckled as soon as you ballasted them w/ a bit of diluted white glue. Turnouts were either #4 Atlas usually w/ above the table balky switch motors or make your own.

We used a simple 'transformer', perhaps left over from the tinplate set we threw away, or gave away, as I did. Electrical supplies for block controls, throwing switches, etc.. came from surplus distributors. (my first 4x8 layout - S scale -was completely done w/ used engines, rolling stock, track, etc. from Madison Hardware and WWII surplus from junk stores on Canal St. in NYC. It became a weekly ritual for my Dad & me to make that journey) Scenery was basic plaster over newspaper and window screen. No premade or fancy kit trees, or ground foam (we used twigs, pcs of colored paper from a hole punch, and real dirt). Structures were either Plasticville or other simple kits - 'craftsman' described what you had to be to make due w/ basic materials incl, cardstock, paper, clear plastic brochure jackets, balsa, bits of metal, and sandpaper for tar roofing.

And we used a lot of imagination, and made sounds with our mouths, instead of a digital sound system. Somehow we survived without DCC, or imported, brass costing $1000 or more, or even BLI plastic at $300 or more a pop. And so on.

Older modelers who have been in the hobby a good part of their life will probably understand my point. You and I have never ever had it so good. And it will not go away, and it will continue to boggle our minds and empty our wallets - if we so choose - as long as we can imagine. It is absurd to think that manufacturers will abandon the hobby; even if some get out, others will fill the void. Like everything else in life.

Has Walthers' catalog lost any pages over the years, even if it doesn't feature some of the manufacturers it used to, or all of the frankly,' very long in the tooth' detail parts they used to market under their own label? And their catalog doesn't even begin to represent all the manufacturers available to us today. And I'm just refering to HO. N and Z scale didn't exist 50 yrs ago. O scale is bigger than ever now, and S is making a serious resurgence in popularity. Although G scale as a track gauge existed then, garden railway type G scale was only for the filthy rich, as opposed to the 'just rich' as it is today ! And now we have suppliers for Nn3, HOn30, HOn3, Sn3, On2, On30, On3, and I'm sure I missed a few more. And back then we had MR and RMC and they were our very thin bibles. If you needed reference data, you went to a rail yard w/ your non-digital camera and a tape measure. There weren't books on every facet of most every railline, a dozen magazines addressing every aspect of the hobby, historical societies for all the fallen flags (and their publications), the NMRA as we know it today, the Internet as a resource tool, as well as chat groups for most aspects of the hobby, and of course this Forum. If you wanted a mug for the New York Central or Santa Fe, you probably had to take the the train and swipe one in the dining car.

I could go on adnauseam and I'll spare you and me, both. This premature prediction of the end of the world is just that - enjoy what we have today - it is absolutely incredible.

If you're concerned about a possible rip and gouge about to happen, don't just female dog and predict the worst (okay to say that?) about it on the Forum, and then not do anything about it. Let the manufacturers know that they'll lose your business if they act in a fashion you deem is unethical, or unfair. Really folks, lets all act in unison and determine what is the most effective, results-orientated and pro-active approaches to pursue to make our collective points with UP, CSX, the model manufacturers, those involved in the DCC scenarios, and so on. This pissing (woops, I did it again !) into the wind approach of making personal attacks against fellow hobbyists because they model (or refuse to) model a particular railroad, threatening boycotts against a Class 1 railroad, as opposed to doing so towards a manufacturer of HO or N models - if they take advantage of the royalty fees imposed on them, and so on, achieves nothing - absolutely nothing, except hurt feelings, wasted energy, misdirected emotions, and lost credibility.

Price increases due to the absorption of the costs of royalties as a consequence of licensing agreements will most likely be quite insignificant, however annoying. More of a mosquito bite, than a sting from a brown recluse spider.

If Lionel got sued for doing something blatantly dishonest - like stealing from a competitor and profitting from the theft, they deserve to be fined, and pay dearly to the victim. I can't comment on how the award amount was determined - frankly it isn't that important - MTH was damaged. Lionel associates were guilty of committing the crime. That the specific crooks were foreigners is very significant, and hopefully will send a clear message to other foreign interests contemplating similar industrial espionage. I hope that those who rip off our manufacturers get fried, big time.

All this hysteria is nutty. The sky is not falling !

[AntonioFP45]

Bill Matthewson,

Well stated with a "SLAM DUNK!"

[:D][8D][:)][8)][;)][4:-)][tup][C):-)][tup]

[Anonymous]

My comments about MTH were about their actions against the DCC manufactures. If they win I just wasted my time investing in a dead contol system. and the sad thing is, I have so many locomotives that even though I prefer block control, DCC is the only control system that can keep the wiring for my layout managable.

[Anonymous]

As I understand it, Lionel stole drawings of the loco designs themselves. If so, they deserve what they got. I don't think it had anything to do with the control system.

The real crime in my opinion is that the US patent office approved these MTH patents. As an engineer, I believe that the technology of speed control and digital sound that these patents protect is obvious and therefore not patentable. This is why I don't thinkg any other inventor has bothered to patent their designs. Unfortunately, now that these patents have been granted, all of the other companies are going to have to either prove that they MTH was not the first to invent the technology or show that the ideas are obvious to anyone skilled in the art. I just don't think patent examiner did his due dilligence to review and understand prior art. Digital speed control of electric motors is a well known technic and its application to model trains, cars, etc. is a natural, obvious progression.

jerry

[Anonymous]

Didn't the first forms of what we now call Command Control comeout in the late 70s? Dynatrol and Astrac I believe? Any of you old timers know?

[chutton01]

QUOTE: Originally posted by sptrainman

As I understand it, Lionel stole drawings of the loco designs themselves. If so, they deserve what they got. I don't think it had anything to do with the control system.

The real crime in my opinion is that the US patent office approved these MTH patents. As an engineer, I believe that the technology of speed control and digital sound that these patents protect is obvious and therefore not patentable. This is why I don't thinkg any other inventor has bothered to patent their designs. Unfortunately, now that these patents have been granted, all of the other companies are going to have to either prove that they MTH was not the first to invent the technology or show that the ideas are obvious to anyone skilled in the art. I just don't think patent examiner did his due dilligence to review and understand prior art. Digital speed control of electric motors is a well known technic and its application to model trains, cars, etc. is a natural, obvious progression.

The Lionel case is pretty cut and dried - hopefully the fines will be vastly reduced upon appeal so Lionel can take it's lumps and (legally) continue on.

The MTH case, alas, is a very common complaint in the Software industry, where very obvious and common methods and practices are patented in an extremely broad manner. It takes a lot to get these patents overturned, even with prior art examples, and that's usually what the patenting company (or a company which aggregates these patents) counts on - that it will be easier for companies to settle rather than fit the patent.
Sometimes the company in question seems to be "fabricating" claims (a possibly good case of this is the SCO vs Linux community, where week after week SCO's claims of appropiated code in Linux are debunked); sometimes the patents seem to be approved by overworked and unknowledgable Patent Examiners (this problem has been acknowledge by the USPTO itself, BTW) and is too overly broad (the latest one concerns streaming media over the internet, with an older patent which DOES NOT concern the internet, but is so overly broad that the company which holds it claims it does, and that many multimedia companies have to license from them); and finally some patents are just valid (all true innovations and inventions are- however the Business process ones that are causing the most problems usually are suspect) and can cause disruptions - note the Smilies listed to the left of the message box - until recently those gif images technically needed to be licensed from Unisys, because they made up of an compression algorithm (LZW) which Unisys held the patent for (it expired last year).

[Anonymous]

Hey, Student of Big Sky Blue, Astrac came out in the 1960s, it was made by General Electric who quickly discovered that the model railroad market is not as large or lucrative as...say the television set market...and they bailed out. Someone else took over and the thing evolved into the various CTC systems (CTC-16, CTC-80, and later RailCommand) Dynatrol came in with a fsystem in the 1970s as did several other manufacturers. None of that was DCC. It was all analog technology and several people were/are very happy with it. The "Kansas Speedway" layout featured on the cover of of MR an issue or so back is operated with CTC-80 to this day! DCC is DIGITAL command control and conforms to the various NMRA recommended pratices on the subject and so is compatable with other manufacturers DCC products. The old analog products were, for the most part, not compatable with each other. So, DCC didn't start with Astrac, but command control (called "carrier control" back then) did.

I am very pleased with my command control system and hope you enjoy yours too.

Cheers

[Anonymous]

When you need a lawyer, there is nobody better to have as your right hand man!

I think this forum can be influenced by a lot of folks whom are not very well versed in some of the subjects brought up. I see a fair amount of "Chicken Littles" out there and wonder where this "Sky is Falling" mentality comes from. Then too, there are many of you whom really seem to have a good grasp of what is going on and I thank you very much for your input and my continued education!

My beliefs: The Universe is from 14 to 20 billion years old, the Earth is around 4 billion years old. I'm not likely to see the Earth blow up in my life time. I'm also not likely to see the end of model railroading. However, "The times, they are a changin" and change has likely not happened at such a quick rate since humans first stepped out of the "Primordial Ooze", carrying a piece of snap-track and a box car.

Take a step back, take in a deep breath, read the new product reviews! This is the best time there has ever been to be a model railroader and I expect it shall only get better! There are "good old days" and tomorrow, they will be today.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Student of Big Sky Blue

Didn't the first forms of what we now call Command Control comeout in the late 70s? Dynatrol and Astrac I believe? Any of you old timers know?

Hornby and Airfix both came out with early DCC-style systems in the '70s/80's. Hornby made a system called Zero 1 that could address up to 16 locos and run up to 4 simultaneously, the Airfix system was known as Multi Train Control (I think, don't know much about the Airfix system). Zero 1 can still be found on eBay (I have a master unit on the way, cost me £10, now need some decoders). Both systems were single-manufacturer and were not compatible with any other system - they were a bit of a commercial disaster (though there is considerable evidence to suggest the "problems" with the Hornby system were due to people not reading the instructions and/or not taking their time to set it up properly - I spoke to the owner of my LHS this week, he recalled using Zero 1 on an exhibition layout and said that it worked very well, though he had got a friend of his with some electronic experience to wire it).

[Anonymous]

I thought Digital Command Control was an outgrowth of Analog Command Control. With analog command control being the first recognizable form of Command Control, with DCC being the second. Not unlike how the Write Flyer was an example of the first form of the Airplane and the Curtis Jenny was the symbol for the second.

James