Hi-speed rail last night on TV: comments

[FJ and G]

A hot selling model train is the Acela. Well, last night on the travel channel, they discussed the real acela train and then trains in Europe.

I had to laugh when they talked about speeds of Acela whopping 150 mph. Bullet trains were going that fast in Japan back in 1964. The EuroStar was nice, London to Paris in 3 hours, and people are leaving the airports for rail in droves.

Already in Shanghai, monorails go 287 mph.

What would it take in the US? Investment in dedicated ROW with gentle curves and no at grade crossing?

Will this ever happen.

Nope.

On the bright side, you can see the scenery better from the window, when the train is running slow. Also, gives us modelers an excuse to run our trains slow.

Dave Vergun

[Anonymous]

The reason that the Acela only runs at 150 mph instead of what the Japanese and Europeans are doing is that the Acela is using previously laid track. Other countries are laying special magnetic track that can get the trains going a lot faster, but it is a lot more expensive to do. Amtrak just doesn't have that kind of money, and I don't see the government giving it to them either.

[Eriediamond]

FJ&G, Saw that myself, was really interesting. Was really impressed with the magnetic drive monorail segment. That may have a future here as the fuel prices keep climbing like the space shuttle headed for orbit. Our transportation system here really sucks (as the younger generation say's it). I live in North Carolina and the company I work for is in Elkhart, In. I will have to travel to Elkhart in a few weeks to pick up my truck. I have three options. Bus- 23 hours, airplane- about 6 hours including check in, security and all, train- close to 25 hours with a big layover in Washington and the same price as plane fare. See what I mean?

[simon1966]

I did not get to watch it last night, but taped it to watch with my boys who are walking authorities on high speed trains. My 4 year olds party trick is to give him a country and he will tell you the name of the train!

The French and the Japanese are way ahead of everyone else here. Even in Germany the famous ICE does not run on dedicated lines in most of the country. The Eurostar currently runs on regular track in the UK which is why it flys through France and slows down considerably when it gets through the Chunnel. When the dedicated line is completed in the UK in a couple of years it will knock 45minutes off the 3 hr travel time from London to Paris. The magnetic levitation trains are a different story. I think it is very unlikely that the Maglev trains will ever have widespread use, even in places like Japan and Germany that have invested billions in the technology. The Japanes only recently opened a Maglev line that is actually used commercially at enormous expense. The German line is just a big circle test setup. For the time being the cost is prohibitive for lines of any significant length.

If the airline industry really goes down hill and there is demand for alternative travel methods, then there is always the possibility that attention could switch to the rails here in the USA. But this does not seem very likely. The other problem in the US is that as a general rule we don't live in our cities. If you live in London it is significantly quicker to get to Paris by train than it is to get out to Heathrow airport (1 hour), check in and wait for the plane (1 hour), fly to Charles De Gaul (40 min), get from CDG to central Paris (2 hours). Since most Americans would have to drive into the city to catch the train there is always the problem of what to do with the car. Our airports are far better equipped to handle the automobile. So beyond the physical cost, I think there is a social issue to overcome.

[FJ and G]

Oh, Forgot to mention. The show just before it on the travel channel was about intermodal transport. Also an excellent show (kudos to Travel channel which also featured Northlanz, discussed in some detail on this forum).

Again, I was impressed with European intermodal. Lets compare Rotterdam Harbor with NY Harbor. First off, NY Harbor is way too shallow for the larger container vessels. Dredging is taking place but that will take years. Rotterdam Harbor can handle the largest ships in the world (as can many other ports around the world).

Secondly, Rotterdam harbor had remotely guided trucks, moving the containers all around the port; nothing like it even close in the US. As for NY, the area is absolutely congested with trucks. I was there. I did a lengthy article on it for Sea Power magazine a couple years ago. Rail out of NY harbor area is appaling.

Not that I want to move to Europe, mind you. Just that I think that the United States has neglected rail for much much too long. Why can't we get our rail up to speed like we can our IT Revolution. Surely, the transportation infrastructure is just as important as the communications infrastructure!

[FThunder11]

This makes me mad, I had it all planned out to see the show, because i saw te advetisemnts on Sunday, but I forgot all about it[V]

[FJ and G]

FThunder.

Reruns

[simon1966]

It is on the travel channel several times between now and early June.

http://travel.discovery.com/schedule/episode.jsp?episode=0&cpi=104546&gid=11323&channel=TRV

If you unwrap the above link and paste it into your browser you should get the schedule.

On Air (ET):

May 28 2004
@ 08:00 PM

May 28 2004
@ 11:00 PM

May 30 2004
@ 01:00 PM

May 30 2004
@ 07:00 PM

Jun 02 2004
@ 07:00 PM

Jun 03 2004
@ 02:00 AM

[brothaslide]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FJ and G

Not that I want to move to Europe, mind you. Just that I think that the United States has neglected rail for much much too long. Why can't we get our rail up to speed like we can our IT Revolution. Surely, the transportation infrastructure is just as important as the communications infrastructure!

Well. . . If you want to pay high taxes like the citizens of these socialized countries do, then you can get what you want - just no money in your pocket.

Sean

[Anonymous]

In a market-driven economy the consumer makes the choices. The systems overseas operate in different political, social and geographic environments. We can complain about short-sighted politicians and planners all we want. Until consumers decide it is better than cars, busses and planes, rail will limp. I take at least one long distance trip a year, to enjoy it while I can and support the system. I find that the service is generally good, if a bit rough around the edges. But, I'm a railfan. Avera getravellers are looking for the best value which is a combination of their perceptions of comfort, reliability, safety, use of time and dollars. Aligning those preceptions to rail is the trick.

[FJ and G]

"Well. . . If you want to pay high taxes like the citizens of these socialized countries do, then you can get what you want - just no money in your pocket."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

(aaahum, cough, cough); we already are paying high taxes for highways and airports.

[Anonymous]

I saw it. It was quite the show. Wasn't really into the Maglev or the stations, but the Acela and the Eurostar were cool. Funny thing though, they didn't mention Amtrak once. Hmmm...........

[philnrunt]

America divorced rails and married the car in the 50's, and mass transit has suffered ever since. As railfans, we all know that the only way a HS rail would work here is dedicated trackage, NO grade crossings and decent running times between destinations. I honestly think that someday we will have no choice but to invest in a scaled down HS system, due to all of the problems with fossil fuels, but I doubt if I'll see it in my life.
Americans, unfortunately, take the easy and quick solution and only later do we realize that we've shot ourselves in the foot. It is a national characteristic, and I don't know if we will ever get away from it. Rugged individualists, ya know. It works great when immediate action is needed, but not so well when a long term solution is required. Just my opinion.
And I agree with FJ&G, we already pay high enough taxes for what we have.

[fiatfan]

Another factor involved here is distance. I can see a high speed rail system along the northeast corridor where the population is high but it would be impractical for travel to St. Louis or Minneapolis from New York City. People don't have or don't want to take the time to travel that distance by train.

Tom

[Anonymous]

'Make no little plans...for they have no magic to stir man's soul'--Daniel Burnham

The United States seems to have forgotten this timeless piece of advice. We'd do well to not only revisit this statement but also to act upon it. If only the government and more taxpayers could see the immense benefits of planning & constructing additional dedicated high-speed corridors. Why-oh-why are we hell-bent on destroying our passenger trains? The Amtrak system is broken; we should all be willing to contribute to repair it, no matter the cost. Amtrak could be a force to truly be reckoned with if only there were enough visionaries--and capital expenditures to bring it to fruition.

[simon1966]

The problem seems to be that the airline industry is broken, the highways are not exactly in great shape, the healthcare system is staggering along. The list goes on. Critical elements of the infrastructure of this great nation are in real crisis. I for one have great admiration for politicians who have a real interest in fixing some of this stuff. Unfortunately, there are apparently not many of them!

[johncolley]

One thing none of the above addressed....Duh....taxpayers are also voters! So let's see if we get any more "hanging chad" crap at the polls! The folks who use air travel for convenience then complain about the lingering demise of our railroads are doing it to themselves. I took a great trip last year on the Empire Builder. Actually trained from Altoona to Chi, then the Builder to Seattle. I had enough of a layover to take a city bus down to the Museum of Science and Industry to see the Burlington Zephyr and the great new layout of rail transportation across the U.S.

[FJ and G]

"I for one have great admiration for politicians who have a real interest in fixing some of this stuff. Unfortunately, there are apparently not many of them!"
-----------------------------

Exactly!

Bush's stand on giving rail a fair share of the billions spent on highways and airports/airlines:
"No comment"

Ditto for Kerry.

The last president we had who really liked trains and railroads was FDR. During WWII most of the freight and passengers moved by rail.

[Jetrock]

Passenger rail in America will not be a viable choice as long as they are hostage to private railroads. I took the Coast Starlight to Portland this weekend--the price was reasonable, the service courteous, the food excellent and the accomodations immaculate. We were, however, six hours late (for what should have been a fourteen-hour trip) because we got sidelined by Union Pacific for every UP freight in the neighborhood. We did get to pass some BNSF freights (even lower on the totem pole than Amtrak) but it was waiting for clearance that sabotages Amtrak every time. Even a train that can make 200 MPH wouldn't be able to keep its schedule if it is stuck in a siding all the time!

So, assuming that the big railroads don't want to get back into the passenger business, the only way to make things work would be separate right-of-way for passenger trains. And that would be expensive, and hard to support. But it is already necessary in many parts of the country, and that need will only grow.

Hey, we need some right-of-way, right? Let's use the public highway system!! Split every federal highway down the middle and put in double-tracked HSR lines. The feds already own the land, most of it is straight enough, and you wouldn't have to knock down any more buildings...

[Anonymous]

Being in the Southern Hemisphere, I didn't get to see the program on High Speed Trains on TV, but I am tickled by some of the comments I have read on the forum and would add a few of my own.
Coming to Australia as a migrant from the UK , I was quite shocked by the primitive rail system here. It seems to have suffered badly from early lack of visionaries just as many of the writers to the forum have complained of. Each State had its own gauge for a start! New South Wales runs on standard 4ft 81/2 inches, but Queensland had 3ft 6in because the then State treasurer was told that the narrow gauge would save sixpence a sleeper! So no trains from NSW can run in Qld except on the short link from the border up to Brisbane!
I decided to experience the Brisbane-Sydney return run a couple of years ago on the HST InterCity Express. I forgot to ask the arrival time and it took a staggering 14 hours to travel only 600 miles! Some High Speed Express! The same journey would have taken about 6 hours in the UK - and a lot less in France or Germany. Amusingly enough, I was supposed to pick up my brother in Sydney - he was visiting from the UK - but when he found that it would take 14 hours to get to Brisbane on a non-smoking train (he is a heavy smoker and in Australia ALL public transport, public buildings, most restaurants, etc are absolutely non-smoking!) he refused to get on and went back to the UK on the next plane!
To answer the anti-socialist whose comments about low tax in the USA made me fall about laughing: obviously this poor person has not ventured out of Darkest Arkansas. I have visited the USA on very many occasions and every time I am appalled by the abject misery and staggering poverty I see in every city. I have NEVER seen the likes of that in any European city or indeed in Australia. I would much rather live in 'socialist' Europe than in the USA where EVERYTHING is taxed so much and people care nothing for the plight of their neighbours. Not a single shop in the USA shows the actual price of anyything - tax is always to added on to the ticketed price. People are paid so miserably that they actually have to rely on begging tips to survive! Hospitals exploit the sick and needy in the most inhumane ways. I was appalled when visiting my friend in Louisiana when he asked for an aspirin for a headache while in hospital - and he was charged $20 for a paper cup of water and one tablet! That is obscene greed!
Sorry guy, you seriously need to experience living in a 'socialist' country where your taxes pay for your children's complete education and the hospitals do not throw you out because you have no money left.
I think most people now realise that passenger railways will only pay their way when they can run at high speed on dedicated tracks where there are no interruptions. That way they can compete with airlines. Remember, too, that airline fares have plummeted over the past 50 years in comparison with train fares which were already as competitive as they could be. To cross the Atlantic in the 1950's cost as much as a year's wages. Now it is about a week's income. BIG difference. On short runs trains have the advantage of access to city centres whereas most airports are some distance from the cities they serve. High speed short runs are where trains will be able to best compete.
When I travel to Brisbane it takes 50-60 minutes by car on the freeway. By train it is 55 minutes - but I have no parking costs, do not have to breathe petrol fumes from other vehicles and never get caught in a traffic jam. I can get up and walk around or sit and read a paper or even snooze. Try doing that in a car! Yes, there will always be a future for passenger train travel, but I think it will need more visionaries to make it happen on a big scale.

[Jetrock]

Billby2K: About sales tax--You still pay sales taxes, I'd reckon, in Australia--the tax is simply included in the price. And there are states without sales tax (such as Oregon)--sales tax is administered by the individual states, not the federal government.

States vary widely on this. Some don't charge sales tax, some don't charge income tax, some add extra tax charges for things like cigarettes and alcohol and gasoline while others don't. But, in general, the total amount of tax (based as a percentage of income) DOES tend to be less in the United States than in Europe (or Australia.) Of course, one might argue that you get what you pay for when it comes to government...or that America has the best government money can buy!

People are charged $20 for an aspirin at hospitals because the government mandates that emergency rooms treat everyone, regardless of ability to pay, but don't provide any funding to pay for this mandate. Thus, the hospital is faced with either charging those who can pay for hospital care to subsidize those who can't, or going out of business. A single-payer healthcare system would cost less and treat more--but Americans are fearful of appearing "socialist." They don't seem to mind public-funded freeways, police, military, airlines, etcetera, though...

[FJ and G]

I think that Jetrock has nailed down the solution pretty well. Such a dedicated ROW would be a big boom for jobs growth as well; and the money would be spent in this country, not building another country's infrastructure.

The highway doesn't necessarily have to be split; many hi-speed rail lines have been constructed on concrete viaducts with a minimal footprint on the highway. Techniques for this type of construction have become highly advanced in recent years. One was just constructed in NY City, linking JFK w/LR RR & subways; mostly above ground.

The added rail-highway advantage would be stations would be located on major road arteries. In my area, the Orange Line on Rt 66 is similar to what Jetrock proposes but on a smaller scale. I've clocked DC metros doing close to 70 mph; but usually I can't clock them because I'm stuck in traffic. In this case, the Orange Line actually splits in the middle of the highway, as Jetrock describes.

dav