Misinformation in MR article?

[Anonymous]

In the current MR (June 2004) there is an article on "Modeling a Pond" by Lee Vand Visse, an ex MR staffer (page 56-59). In the sidebar on page 58 , "Simulating standing water" he states Envirotex "...surface becomes milky after a year and it's more likely to trap air bubbles."

This is the first I've ever heard of Envirotex becoming milky. I have three pairs of HO scale modules and each has Envirotex waterways and I haven't seen any evidence of it becoming milky. The oldest pair of modules is about 20 years old and the newest is about 10. The water is still nice and clear. In fact the simulated water on my modules is the one feature that receives the most comments when at train shows. One woman remarked "Look, he's put real water there". Others in our club haven't had the material turning mikly either.

As to Envirotex trapping air bubbles, it certainly does, and this is well mentioned in the application instructions. They suggest either breathing on the curing material, or waving a propane torch near the surface. Apparently the carbon dioxide from your breath and the torch stimulates the bubbles to rise to the surface. Since most of my water areas were small, I just breathed on them, and you could see the bubbles rising just like in soft drinks. I guess all it takes is time to read the instructions!

I find it strange that he suggests using casting resin for his water, as it gives off very strong fumes (mentioned in the article) which would quickly spread though your home. He mentions opening windows and having a fan, but that it took four or five days for the fumes to be gone. Seems to me this fault alone would steer most people to the no fumes Envirotex.

I have no commercial connection with Envirotex, I'm just a satisfied user who does not like to see misinformation spread around about one of my favorite scenic materials.

Bob Boudreau
Canada

[BentnoseWillie]

What's stranger still is that MR have covered the use of a torch to remove bubbles from Envirotex several times over the last twenty years. The most notable example that jumps to mind is the Seaboard Central project layout, which had a photograph illustrating the technique.

Maybe he got a bad batch?

[DonaldAgne]

Haven't read the article yet, 'cause still haven't got my MR in the mail[:(]; but, could it have been something he added to the Envirotex that made it turn milky. Or maybe he mixed it at the wrong ratio. I've heard of people adding food coloring or applying other materials (don't remember what) to the surface of an Envirotex pond to simulate scum. Maybe some kind of chemical reaction.

[orsonroy]

I've seen Envirotex turn yellow, but never milky. Remember, Envirotex is generally called "bar topper" in the real world, and the stuff was used all over the place. I've seen 20+ year old Envirotex in bars and none of it was milky.

[dknelson]

According to the article Lee was sealing his plaster with acrylic paint -- could that have reacted with the Envirotex? Sometimes my acrylic paints give off an odor somewhat like amonia. I also noticed that some pure alcohol that I spilled turned part of the floor milky, so again it might have been some chemical reaction involving the many materials Lee was using to create his scenery. Alas he is no longer around to ask ...
dave nelson

[mondotrains]

Hey Guys,
Why are we talking about Envirotex when Woodland Scenics has come out with a product called "Realistic Water"? It comes ready to be poured and doesn't have an odor, which to me is very important. Secondly, it dries clear and was real easy to pour without forming many bubbles. The few bubbles that did form were easily removed with a toothpick. I had previously used Woodland Scenics plastic beads which needed to be melted and poured, but unfortunately, the surface scratched very easily when I dusted it with a cloth. The "Realistic Water" is much tougher.

Hope this helps.
Mondo

[Anonymous]

I will have to look foward to it. College has kept me behind in my MR reading to the point I am only now getting to the January Issiue. But it seems strange that the MR staff would not at least make a precursery review of their own work. One of the articles in question where the torch method came to light was written by Andy Sperando. One would think he would go "Hey Wait a minut!!!! There is a better way!!!!!!" But alas, this apparently did not happen.

I don't know about you guys, but I seriously think this new crew they brought in is starting to lose it. Maybe its transistion troubles?

James

[n2mopac]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mondotrains

Hey Guys,
Why are we talking about Envirotex when Woodland Scenics has come out with a product called "Realistic Water"? It comes ready to be poured and doesn't have an odor, which to me is very important. Secondly, it dries clear and was real easy to pour without forming many bubbles. The few bubbles that did form were easily removed with a toothpick. I had previously used Woodland Scenics plastic beads which needed to be melted and poured, but unfortunately, the surface scratched very easily when I dusted it with a cloth. The "Realistic Water" is much tougher.

Hope this helps.
Mondo

Yes, this stuff is great. There is no mixing, no fumes, few bubbles (and these are easily taken care of by a heat source), and it looks great. This stuff doesn't scratch because it cures like rubber so the surface is self healing, not hard.

I used the old Woodland Scenics pellets once too. They are a mess to use, as you had to melt them and pour, bubbled badly which could only be fixed with extremem head like a heat gun or tourch (melting or burning anything that carelessly got in the way), yellowed and shrank over time, and cracks easily with temperature changes, not to mention the scratches that appeared every time you looked at it wrong. That stuff was horrible. Thumbs up to Wooldand Scenics for dumping that product in favor of the much superior Real Water. The Water Effects product works well with it also if you want to create the effect of running or wind-blown watter.
Ron

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mondotrains

Hey Guys,
Why are we talking about Envirotex when Woodland Scenics has come out with a product called "Realistic Water"?

I started this thread NOT to determine which is the best product to use for model water, but to point out the article in MR that states (incorrectly in my opinion) that Envirotex becomes milky after a year. My experience and that of others show that it does not if used properly.

The advice in MR was not correct. That is the subject of this thread.

Bob Boudreau
Canada

[Anonymous]

I have not used Envirotex, but I have read a lot of MR, and I would add that this is not the first time the MR has gotten something wrong. They are usually pretty good about corrections.

In this case though, if it is the author's experience - was it presented that way, or was it stated as fact?

Andrew

[wp8thsub]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mondotrains

Hey Guys,
Why are we talking about Envirotex when Woodland Scenics has come out with a product called "Realistic Water"? It comes ready to be poured and doesn't have an odor, which to me is very important.

They key there is "to me it is very important." I like the results I get from products like epoxy resin in certain situations, which makes any odor or mixing worth the trouble. I haven't noted that epoxy resin produces much odor, despite using it for some large pours.

Epoxy resin is not interchangeable with other products intended for depicting water but don't deliver the same effects. The availability of competing products doesn't negate its virtues, nor do internet rumors about the alleged difficulty of its use. For that matter, I haven't found the late Mr. Vande Visse's scenery to be particularly convincing, and thought the article in the June MR didn't show epoxy resin to its best advantage. The MR article from several years ago on pond scum and lily pads was far superior (in my opinion at least) in showing how to get realistic results.

[Anonymous]

MR (Ohmygoshcanisayit?) has clearly made a mistake. I've been using Envirotex for years, and have Never seen it turn white. The only problem is it is suseptable to light scratching when cleaning, but a quick touch up with water based polyurethane is all that is required to keep it fresh for years![:D][:D][:D]

[Anonymous]

FYI - ponds, at least in the South East are never clear as glass as modeled in the article in question. If you've ever fallen into a pond you'll agree that they can be the nastiest thing short of a swamp. If nothing else, water reflects the "color" of the sky and it's surroundings, as well as the stuff under water - dirt, water plants, rocks, stumps, trash, and critters. A slightly murky or cloudy effect would be far more realistic, unless you're modeling water in a stream that is flowing slowly.

[FJ and G]

I've found Envirotex easier to work with because it calls for 50/50 mix. Resin, OTOH, is a bit harder to mix because you need precise measurements, determined by ambiant temperature you are working in. Also smells bad.

But both resin and envirotex do the trick and both look equally good and no, there is no clouding. Perhaps MR can print a correction. I do occasional corrections in my magazine, The Military Engineer.

BTW, I cracked 2 toilet bowls in my life and fixed both with resin.

Dave Vergun

[n2mopac]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FundyNorthern

QUOTE: Originally posted by mondotrains

Hey Guys,
Why are we talking about Envirotex when Woodland Scenics has come out with a product called "Realistic Water"?

I started this thread NOT to determine which is the best product to use for model water, but to point out the article in MR that states (incorrectly in my opinion) that Envirotex becomes milky after a year. My experience and that of others show that it does not if used properly.

The advice in MR was not correct. That is the subject of this thread.

Bob Boudreau
Canada

Ok, then lets put it this way. The article states one modeler's experience and opinion about a two products. Just because his experience and opinion is different from someone else's does not make it "misinformation." I seriously doubt that he was out to deceive or mislead anyone, nor do I beliece he stands to profit from doing so. A different opinion and "misinformation" are two completely different things. Let's not be so inflamatory with our words--this is not a political debate afterall.
Ron

[Roadtrp]

QUOTE: I seriously doubt that he was out to deceive or mislead anyone, nor do I beliece he stands to profit from doing so.
Ron

I believe the author of the article has passed on, so I am very certain that he doesn't stand to profit from his opinion.

[DonaldAgne]

QUOTE: ...I cracked 2 toilet bowls in my life and fixed both with resin

My goodness, Dave! Was it something you ate?

[philnrunt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DonaldAgne

QUOTE: ...I cracked 2 toilet bowls in my life and fixed both with resin

My goodness, Dave! Was it something you ate?

Are you sure you want to know this? I mean, like, REALLY sure?