Walthers Passenger Cars Keep Derailing

[steamage]

Just a question to other modelers about their luck running Walthers Passenger cars. Last night at our club I took four new passenger cars out of their boxes (that never have been run before), to run in my SP passenger train consist. We have 50 inch radius curves on the layout and good track to run the longer passenger equipment. Three out of four would not stay on the track or would keep coming uncoupled. Even moving moving the cars to other place in train did not help. I think when someone spends $40.00 for a ready to run plastic passenger car, the thing would stay on the rails without any more work on it from ME! Now I have to take it apart and find out why there stupid product derails? Why not just sell me a kit so I could put it together correctly!! [:(!]

[Anonymous]

I have two Athern blue box heavyweights, and all twelve (collectvely) wheelsets were out of gauge. New wheels from Proto2000 solved the problem, but it was a pain. You're right about RTR - either it is or it isn't. Ready to run, but first you have to a) add detail parts (especially those that are included, but not installed), and/or b) fix something, and/or c) upgrade something, and d) add Kadee couplers isn't really RTR in my opinion either.

Andrew

[CP5415]

Andrew;

What wheel sets did you use? I want to replace the axles on my Athearn heavy weights as well. I don't have a problem with them except the look.

Gordon

[CP5415]

My beef with Walthers Passenger cars is that the coupler height is slightly higher than EVERYTHING in my fleet including my Kato business car . This is the reason why mine don't stay coupled.

Gordon

[johncolley]

Wheel woes... Two things I do with all my passenger cars...First I weight them to NMRA standards..1 oz. for the car and 1/2 oz. for each inch of length. Second check the wheels for guage and roundness. I found a lot of sub-standard wheelsets are coming from the manufacturers. I have replaced all my wheels with 31" wheelsets. I too am a believer in big curves and my 14 car Empire builder runs snake smooth even with diaphragms on every car. Also check trackwork for level and guage if it happens often in a particular area. Good luck and happy railroading. John Colley Port Townsend, WA

[ndbprr]

I'd check the screws holding the trucks on the car also. They could be too tight. try backing them off a half turn.

[cbq9911a]

The older runs of the Walther's streamlined passenger cars have couplers that are 0.01" to high and wheelsets that are 0.015" too narrow. I use Kadee washers to widen the gauge, and discard the coupler assembly, replacing it with a Kadee #5 in its own box.

[Anonymous]

Does this include Superliners?

[Anonymous]

I was an early buyer of the buds.

I have 22" radius and substituted the KD#26 longer shank. The wheel drag was
too-too much. My Atlas Dash 8-32B would only pull three cars so I substituted
IM s.(Very free rolling) If I had 24" they probably would be problem free.

[Anonymous]

You'll almost certainly need to replace the wheelsets and the couplers. You may well have to find a place to add some weight too. I agree that this is not a $40 value; at that price, the cars should work perfectly out of the box. A couple of general comments here:

(1) although in general I find the magazine reviews to be informative and fair, I frequently find that, whether kit or RTR, I need to adjust the coupler height - yet the review either doesn't cover this topic at all, or erroneously claims that the coupler height is spot-on.

(2) Walthers has done much for the hobby as a distributor (IMO). And some of their products are unique enough that I will still consider buying them and deal with the inevitable problems. But I have indeed experienced problems - mostly parts simply not fitting correctly due to, presumably, mistakes in the mold-making - with nearly every Walthers product I've bought.

[AntonioFP45]

On the bright side, with the Walthers Flyer these cars can be purchased considerably cheaper. Some on-line dealers sell them in the $20 to $30 range.

Don Gibson may chime in. He has a lot of valuable info on these cars and the headaches that can sometimes be encountered. I've read before that some of the early run Walthers cars did have problems with wheels and couplers.

On the newer cars it's still important to check the wheel gauge and coupler heights.
Sometimes the coupler heights between to cars will vary slightly enough that they will uncouple over a slight rise or dip in the track. Shimming may be required. All modelers should own a Kadee standard height gauge. Good tool to have on a test track.

There will be some wheel drag due to the metal axle points rotating inside of the metal journals. If you want to use the Walthers "drop-in" lighting kit there's no getting around it.

Don asked me a while back to perform a comparison test between using graphite and Molybdenum in lubing the journals. I should have some time in the near future as I'll be going on vacation soon.

Interesting facet about this overall is that when we demand greater quality kits, we shouldn't forget that we're going to wind up with greater maintenance requirements, just like the prototypes.

[Anonymous]

I have one of the P-S sleepers from this range, and second Antonio's recommendation about greasing the bearings - this really makes a big improvement in free-rolling and also seems to help with power pickup for the interior lighting. I found that when I fitted Kadee #5s in the original pockets they worked out at the correct height and seemed to give slightly closer coupling. I've also fitted #5s to their Amfleet 2s and Superliner 1s - both worked out at the right height. Now looking for the other sleeper and the coach they offer in C&NW paint - the great thing about a museum is that you can run pretty much anything you like together!

[Anonymous]

I have a set of 4 Rivarossi/Walthers UP Smoothsides. The new ones with working diaphrams, etc. Mine are fantastic, even down to 18" radius. When I added lighting to two of them, they were even better with the added weight. I hope to get the other two lighted soon.

But they sure run smooth for me behind by Trix Big Boy, Riv Challenger or Athearn F7's. The only time I have a derailment is due to "Engineer Error." You can believe me when I say my trackwork is far from great, too, that's part of the reason for the scheduled demolition of this layout!!!

[mlehman]

I had a set of 10-1-2 heavyweight sleepers that had a problem. A solution that was noted on one of the lists refered me to the following solution. I don't know if you have these or some other recent Walthers offerings, but here is what worked for me.

Check where the screwhead contacts on the trucks hit the floating shoes on the underside of the carbody that are used for power pickup for lighting. I can't remember if I just tightened them a notch (say 1/8 of a turn, not much) or used a file where the point of your Phillips screwdriver goes and sometimes makes a little burrr of metal. Either way, what happens in curves is the truck pivots and the screwhead on it, when it is just a little too high, hangs up on the edge of the contact shoe it touches as the truck rotates back and forth. Then you get a derailment.

My problem occurred on 28" curves, so I'm a little surprised that you're having the same problem, so it might be something else. Check all your wheelsets for gauge and also for any burrs on the flange. I've had a couple of these on Athearn RTRs. They were in gauge, but I didn't catch that there was a bad spot on the wheel until closer inspection.

Oh, and you DO need to lube these trucks, at least the six-wheel ones under my Pullmans need it, but I suggest doing that after making sure they are all running right. Less of a mess as long as you don't forget to do it. Test runs won't hurt dry, and I doubt that this would cause a derailment on a test run, but lubing is needed for long life and low friction.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL

[Don Gibson]

Some of Walthers' Passenger 'BUDD' cars had wheels out of gage. CHECK.

All exhibited friction from the metal / metal half-axle / side frames needed to use their (optional) lighting system..
WALTHERS' fix was to lube the journals. MY preferennce was to use KD's 'Grease Em' - as graphite would not compromise the electrical connection's, nor run out of the journals.onto the track as a iight oil would eventially do.

JURY's still out, but my BUDD cars roll like greased lightening and I can illumunate any and all.

OPINION'S on COMMENTS made here:
I agree with Chuck Walsh on installing longer couplers for 22" radii. KD #46 drop right in.
(I suspect most of complaining about "high couplers" have Athearn engine's - which are notoriously low).
I do not understand anybody cecommending 31" wheels over 36" .Perhaps it's a misprint - or he's owner of IHC.

[TomDiehl]

Perhaps this is because I'm a little more "old school" but on all new cars and locomotives, kit or RTR, I have always started with the NMRA gauge on the wheels, and the kadee gauge on the couplers. Then I check that wheels rotate in the round, and freely, then insure the trucks move properly on all axises. Starting out by checking the basics would seem to eliminate these as causes of problems down the road. I also screen all my cars and locos at least every two years for these parameters. Whether these defects are from sloppy assembly, poor handling, or poor packing, these things need to be checked.

[jimrice4449]

I'm a psgr train freak (with 210 on the RR and more to do) and I've run into problems with the Walthers cars too. One in particular on my Panama Lmtd would derail every time at the same spot in the track. Checked the track and the wheels with the NMRA gauge and everthing was fine. I finally replaced that truck...problem solved. Another problem with the Walthers cars is that they're 6 inches (scale, of course) too high. Not a problem if you're just using Walthers cars, but if you're mixing them with accurate cars the difference is noticeable. It's in the nature of the Walthers cars that correcting that problem is excruciating (I know because I did one). The only practical solution is to alter the accurate cars to get an even roofline.
Walthers isn't the only problem. Every import car I've gotten in the last few years has wheels that are either at the very minimum back to back gauge or are too tight to fit the NMRA gauge. A special problem for me because I have 4 Shinohara double slip switches at the west end of my depot that have absolute minimum flangeways and the cars short out every time. If you think tweaking a $40 car is irritating, try removing every wheelset from a 10 to 17 car train that cost from $300 to $400 per car and tweaking them with a wheel puller before you can run them!

[jimrice4449]

I forgot about cplrs. My operating requires shoving trains into their yard tracks, sometimes up 17 cars. This presents some really spectacular special effects if attempted with various swivel mounting systems. Fortunately my psgr cars don't have to negotiate any curve tighter than 36" so what I do with all of them is body mount the couplers using a KD #5 box with the 2:56 mounting hole spaced .4" from the end of the car and using a long shank KD cplr. This provides for close coupling (less than 36 scale inches) and provides for plenty of lateral movement.

[TomDiehl]

Jim, sounds like that truck was twisted. If you still have it, set it on a flat surface. If all wheel flanges don't touch the surface, the frame is twisted. This can give some interesting problems with tracking.

The other ones are just what I've been saying about using the gauges. The NMRA standards were set up to insure interchange. The gauge is a simplified way to measure them. If everything is set up to these standards, it will operate more reliably. Never assume the manufacturer did this correctly.

The Kadee gauge is set to measure the coupler height and trip pin clearance, and is easier to use for this than the NMRA gauge. High or low couplers need to be adjusted regardless of how the manufacturer does it.

[AntonioFP45]

Thanks for the tip on the #46 Kadee! Looks like I'll be needing these as my layout plans call for 22" to 24" radius curves with the limited space I have.

Cheers!

[mecovey]

I have the first three sleepers that came out in the Heavyweight series. I can't keep them on the track either. I have 30" curves and no problems with any other equipment. I'm going to start with the screws on top of the truck (probably file them down some) and see if that helps.

[Don Gibson]

FIRST eliminate the couplers. Roll the cars idividually.
SECOND if you've checked the wheel guage, check the trucks for vertical play and horizontal binds.
Make sure the wheels can follow the variations in the track.

[CP5415]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Thanks for the tip on the #46 Kadee! Looks like I'll be needing these as my layout plans call for 22" to 24" radius curves with the limited space I have.

Cheers!

Why?
I'm using 22" curves on my layout, still have the origional Walthers couplers installed & have had no problem around the curves even at speed.
I'm staying with #5's.

Gordon