ON30 'just a toy' ?

[Anonymous]

Quote from one of the 15 yahoo groups dedicated to the On30 scale ( On2-1/2 in MR speak ):-
"Model Railroader has decided that On30 is a toy and that they
do not want to run very much on them."
Oh, really? some of the finest layouts I've ever seen have been done in On30 scale - for one of the best, perhaps MR would care to look at the latest issue of Model Railroading or peruse :
http://www.cooncreek-and-tumbleweed-springs.co.uk
I discovered this scale 2 years ago and haven't looked back - there are now 3 major players in this scale and umpteen small workshops turning out some lovely kits and the art of kit-bashing reigns supreme amongst its followers.
Comments seen so far in reply to that comment run from 'MR is plain daft to impugn ON30 with that description' to 'MR is an elitist magazine'.
I'm sure Bachmann are highly chuffed to hear their On30 range described as 'toys'
Perhaps the Editor of MR would care to elucidate in the next issue as to how they reached that conclusion ?
Yours
David Butler
UK and now an ex-subscriber to MR

[vsmith]

I agree, On30 is a really cool scale with some really outstanding models. I hope this is a miscommunication and not a real mindset.[V]

TOY? Have they even SEEN Bachmanns new On30 Shay? Damn thats a great model, it puts MDC's venerable Shay to shame![:)]

On30 is the fastest growing scale in the hobby? Why would they **** on something that is going to be a big player in a few years?[V]

The only reason I could see for such a severe reaction is because they are modeling Colorado Narrow Guage which was 3'-0" , not 2'-6" which On30 is, and if that is the reason, they are really missing the point. The whole IDEA is to bring the enjoyment of narrow gauge to wider crowd. [8D]

Large scale was dismissed as a "toy" and not taken seriously until one day the magazines found it was so big they could no longer ignore it and were FORCED to deal with it...now its an accepted part of the hobby.[;)]

BIG F*#ING DEAL if its NOT STRICTLY PROTOTYPICAL. [:(!]

Its called a HOBBY, NOT A RELIGION !!!

These Evil Rivet Counters need to get over themselves...[xx(]

I still hope this was a misunderstood comment, but if what you said is true and Mr Editor believes this, then its about time the Evil Rivet Counter Demon will need to be exercised from Mr Editor, I suggest hot irons, spiked tables, and various pointed sticks![}:)]

I also want to know, Mr Editor, WHAT DID YOU SAY?[?]

[BNSFNUT]

I have looked at On30 and I think is is a nice scale. As for it beeing a toy anyone who has looked at it closly can see it is not. I think MR has not carried much on it because it is a small section on the hobby. Now that it is becoming more popular with modelers I think we see more on it. They reveiwed a On30 loco this issue.
I think the "toy" idea came from Bachmann being the first to mass produce the scale in any quanity. They still havn't lived down that they where once only a low end producer ,
I heard the same thing about G scale when it was introduced and look where its gone.

[Anonymous]

So sombody stated this opinion, so what! "A Yahoo someone said a person said", how is this reality? The reviews I have read in MR do not show any negative inflection or bias on the On30 stuff I have seen them review. I think it has been to the contrary!

Sheesh! You guys are reactionary!

Show me a negative article written by the MR staff, giving the "magazines" position on On30-On21/2, before you make unsubstantiated statements! Also, realize a writter may have opinions about things which the magazine does not necessarily agree with!

WOW!!

[Anonymous]

ukOn30guy, you are right about Bachmann people being upset about that, I was just over on the Bachmann messege board and they are not happy about it. I think Bachmann On30 is great, have you seen their gas mechanicle ? just my opinion.

[Jetrock]

I see On30 as a way for narrow gaugers to be able to model some of the really, really small stuff that is very difficult to do in HO--at a slightly lower price than other narrow-gauge O, due to the use of HO equipment.

One thing I saw in an old MR (but didn't pick up) was the only model I've ever seen of the Falk, a tiny gypsy engine (http://visithumboldt.com/loggingmuseum/roster.html) that operated in Humboldt County. It's almost impossible to do in HO--the things were smaller than the Porter 0-4-0's. Some fellow had scratchbuilt the Falk--in On3. In On30 one can make such things--in HOn3/HOn30 it's still almost impossible to make an accurate model of those things.

So maybe MR considers them "toys" because it's a good scale for "cute" little logging engines, and no good for Class 1 heavy-duty railroading. If it's any consolation, every narrow-gauge-emphasis magazine I read typically has half its articles about On30, and half the ads are for On30 stuff.

Maybe it's okay to be marginalized by MR. Us traction folks have had to put up with it too...

[Anonymous]

I think it is ungrateful of the poster, unfair to Model Railroader and unfair to the
people whom read this forum or the other forum's mentioned, to post remarks which have been stated without substantiation! No proof has been brought forward substantiating this claim!

My parent’s always said to me “Believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see”.
If they were alive now and had access to the internet, I think the statement would be
amended to simply “Believe nothing you hear or see”!

Model Railroader, IMHO has always presented professional opinions. Making
disparaging remarks about a growing facet of this hobby would be ludicrous for them.

[Anonymous]

I will dismiss this as spectulative and without material evidence.

I am not a rivit counter and dont mind a giant coca-cola tanker hooked to a 4-4-0 occasionally... with that in mind, I think that 0n30 actually has a market aside from the "cuteness" they do a good job with these peices of equiptment.

[Anonymous]

Model Railroader does seem to stay away from the odder scales, On3, S, sn3,

G and so on. I subscribe just the same and apply the principles learned to the scales I like S and G.

Carpenter Matt

[Fergmiester]

I've seen the ON30 in the LHS and my first impression was "That is really neat and would really good in the garden. It's not my idea of indoor modeling only because I'm not a narrow gauge kinfd of guy. But if I was to invest in a garden railway this to me would make an excellent scale for that venue.

As far as it being a toy. I'd have to say no, however it is in a "class" of it's own and maybe that is the reason MR doesn't want to get into doing articles on it.

[Anonymous]

Either this, or last month's issue had a review of BWL's 2-8-0 in On30. Lets also think about the readership. It's very well documented that close to 60% of us model HO, the next largest modeled scale is N. G and the other Garden Railroad scales have their own magazine. I read O and S articles in MR regularly (probably more than their true percentage of modeler participation is) and since when does it matter what scale is modeled? Most every article has some application for your chosen scale. Another thing, arn't they all really toys? Like they say the only differance between men and boys, is the cost of their toys. If you need respect, Hey, you've got mine!

[Jetrock]

hm. reading the initial post in this thread again, this does sound like one of those rumors that got blown out of proportion...the more I think about it the less I can picture MR staff making such a statement, especially since there have been a few pretty positive On30 reviews lately--and an On30 railroad in MRP 2003...

[Anonymous]

To those of you who cast doubts on the veracity of my opening post - here without reference to the originator is the verbatim copy of the original thread that started me off:
quote
I had the oppurtunity to talk with Randy Lee this last weekend in Ogden UT and he is tickled that Model Railroader has decided that On30 is a toy and that they do not want to run very much on them. He is dedicated to furthering our cause and we need to support him.
Unquote

Now I doubt if anybody is going to take a leading employee's name in vain or leave himself wide open to libel just for the sake of starting a rumour. For those of you who say X percent of Modellers are in HO, so what? The other X percent should have just as much coverage or exposure.
I 'm not decrying MR as a magazine overall, just their stance of treating a very popular and upcoming scale with apparent disdain.

[NevinW]

That is just Randy Lee's opinion. Who obviously has an agenda of his own, as the editor of a competing magazine. I see no evidence that MR is anti On30 at all. This thread is pretty silly. - Nevin

[Anonymous]

The thread is only silly if you have no interest in furthering the hobby, in the long term the stance could have a detrimental effect. For a magazine that purports to further 'The World's Greatest Hobby' to instill that kind of feeling in another person, whatever their field of employment, does them no good service. It's not just that person's feelings or thoughts, but the effect on others a stance like that engenders.
The On30 scale has been responsible for attracting a lot more people back into the hobby because of its size and scope compared to HO, N and Z scales and deserves its place in the hobby, not denigration. Don't lose sight of the fact that On30 or O2-1/2 has been around for many years now, so is not a passing fad or a scale that will disappear - its counterpart in Europe O-16.5 has an equally high following and is certainly not regarded as toys by the mainstream magazines.
As for not seeing any bias, the model of the year was voted by readers and not MR and must reflect the popularity of the scale; the reviews of the On30models ( and they are very few and far between ) are more out of loyalty to the manufacturer than the readership, how many articles have you read on the On30 scale?.
Either MR is for all railroad modellers, regardless of scale, or it re-aligns its remit to just the 'popular' scales and standard gauges and says so.
As to the comment that all model trains are 'toys', then I suggest those people have no right to call themselves modellers. Toys are something bought for children to keep them amused and have no lasting value to the owner. Once you get into the realms of creating a virtual miniature scale world in whatever form, to a greater or lesser detail, then you have gone beyond the bounds of 'toyland'. It takes no skill to play with toys, but skills of all forms are developed or learnt through the art of modelling that for most of us will last a lifetime.

[Anonymous]

Dear ukOn30fan, Please do not take my points as a personal attack! This is not my intention. You have finally named whom made the quoted statement. Who is Randy Lee? I do not see him on the masthead of Model Railroader. I also don't see his name on the masthead of RMC, Mainline Modeler, N.G. & S.L. Gazette or Model Railroad News. Someone has suggested that he edits a competing magazine. Is this true?

[dknelson]

I see no evidence that Model Railroader has written off On30. I would rather hear Randy Lee speak for himself (let him write this in his magazine in other words) than hear a second or third hand quote.

I would say however that for those truly in On3 that it has to be a little disheartening to see beautiful models of 3 foot gauge equipment that they cannot run without modification. But in sense they still can benefit.

It is interesting to remember that for those in true O gauge their gauge is too wide by just short of 4 inches (except for the fine scale types who correct the error) while On30 has actual prototypes to that scale but mostly seems to emphasize 3 ft gauge prototypes -- 6 inches off. So the 1/4 inch folks are well accustomed to something other than perfect accuracy on gauge.

If I was modeling On30 I would do an industrial or quarry line that actually had that gauge, not a Colorado 3 ft line but that is just my preference.
Dave Nelson

[Eriediamond]

For what it's worth, I'm going to throw in my two cents here. As far as I'm concerned, we are still at square one and I don't believe MR made such a statement or feels what they've been portrayed as feeling and will not support the negatives thrown toward MR with this. Furthermore, it has been indicated that On30 is a seperate individual scale. It is not, it is O scale. The "n30" only shows or denotes the guage track this O scale is operating on and the resulting size of the rolling stock run on it. There is no such thing as On30 scale people, buildings, trees, etc. Everything is modeled in "O" scale. I agree that the locos and rolling stock and track is of smaller size then O scale standard guage equipment is, just as an O scale dog house is smaller then a house, but they are still both O scale.

[MRTerry]

Dear guys,
I'm not sure who said that we at MR think badly of On30 (or On2 1/2, if you prefer), but it wasn't one of us. We've reviewed its new products pretty consistently (and pretty positively), Tony Koester has written about it, and we have a combination On3/On2 1/2 project layout under construction that will be a series in the magazine. Project layouts are no small investment, and we wouldn't be doing one if we didn't think this scale/gauge combo has a lot going for it. (Actually, despite what you may hear, there aren't any scales we dislike - but that's another story.)
If you have a question about MR, or especially about something that we're reported to have said, please feel free to check with us first.
Thanks for reading MR, and best wishes.
Sincerely,
Terry

[Anonymous]

Terry, thanks for setting the record straight! Now, I'm going down to the basement to "Play with my TOYS"! THERE, I've said it and I'm danged proud of it! Going to be 54 in a month and I still like my toys!

[Eriediamond]

[#ditto]Thanks Terry, and wish I had a basement to play in!!!!!

[Anonymous]

Thanks for setting the record straight - taken a long time getting there, but I'm glad to see the statement disparaged.
David Butler

[vsmith]

Thanks Terry, I had a feeling this was a misunderstanding. Good to know your opinion.

PS when is the On3-On30 layout going to be published? It sounds interesting!

[on30francisco]

I think the introduction of On30 narrow gauge is the best thing that ever happened to the hobby of model railroading. With the introduction of Bachmann's line of On30 locomotives, many more people can model in O scale and narrow gauge without having to second mortgage their houses in order to buy those extremely expensive On3, HOn3, or Sn3 brass locos (the only ones available in those gauges). The Bachmann locos look great, run well, and are very affordable. To me On30 is the best of two worlds; the heft and detail of O scale and the convenience of HO. Many if not most narrow gauge magazines have a lot of articles on On30.

[krump]

I think On30 is wonderful, be it a "toy" or not. I love it !!!
Some great layouts with incredible scenery obseerved, others read about. On30 is my future.
- do you typically add scenery detail for a toy ?

cheers

[hminky]

Everyone,
Why is On30 the only odd narrow gauge considered a toy? All the other's like HOn30 and Nn3 are considered viable combo's. The Bachmann stuff are accurate models of a prototype and not toys. It allows the average modeler to build a narrow gauge layout in 1/4" scale. O standard gauge isn't a toy and it runs on 5' gauge track.. The editor's of MR should get their head out of the sand or wherever else they rest it and see the trend in 1/4" narrow gauge.

http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/

Just a rant against the ignorant
Harold
On30 - 1/4" scale narrow gauge for everyone, available everywhre and ready to run

[bcammack]

I don't consider it a toy. I'm thinking about it for my next layout. Frankly, this is one of the sillier threads I've encountered in quite a while. Kudos to Terry for a dignified response. The vitriol hardly merited it. [:)]

[Anonymous]

I'm glad Terry set the record straight. After years of getting emails talking about the latest hazard as reported by "Metropolitan Police" the lastest dying little boy that wants everyone to send him an email and numerous emails discussing that if I forward it to 10 people Bill Gates will give me $10,000 haven't we learned not to believe everything that is posted on the internet?

Now - the Elvis sighting in New Mexico - that's believable!!

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dkelly


Now - the Elvis sighting in New Mexico - that's believable!!

Dam straight is is! The Big E used his Flying Saucer to jump start my Econoline...