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Looking for Broadway Limited Item....
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[quote user="jondrd"][quote user="Safety Valve"][quote user="jondrd"] <p> cazephyr,</p><p> Spoke to remaining partner/owner at Big-E show in Springfield, MA yesterday. I asked question about the organization re your posting. His scenario is that BLI was founded as a three partner enterprise. The partner who was former Oriental firm "CEO" importer of brass model railroad items(locos?) was not booted from founding partnership. This individual turned 75 and wanted to retire and did so. The other partner elected to be bought out to pursue other interests.</p><p> I asked some questions pertaining to previously announced Dreyfus Hudson and he responded that BLI is waiting until sufficient reservations are in place before commiting to production. This response would seem to be a recognition on their part that they cannot continue a practice which would undercut their dealers/LHS. Re the Dreyfus Hudson: I asked if the streamlined Hudson was to go into production would BLI produce a passenger consist for it like the Zephyr and SP Daylight consists? He said that that was their intent. The caveat being sufficient consumer commitment to produce the engine. </p><p> He mentioned that some of the large mail order houses want to buy locos for less than it costs to produce them. Talk about a bad business model for the manufacturer let alone its impact on LHS's. <strong><u>I can only surmise</u></strong> that to get BLI off the ground they may have pursued practices which in the main were not favorable to dealers/distributors but could be construed, at a minimum, to guarantee the short term survival of a new enterprise. Obviously if this were the case it could be argued with benefit of 20/20 hindsight that these short term practices could well imperil the long term viability of BLI. He mentioned that tooling for new models is in the neighborhood of $400K and if one makes too many production commitments without sufficient reservations one could be looking at a very large expense against a questionable revenue stream. If the tooling runs $400K, to that must be added other expenses of marketing the unit(transportation, advertising, warehousing, etc). As an analogy(stretched, I know), the late Sen. Everett Dirksen of Illinois once observed about federal spending, "A million here, a million there. Before you know it you're talking real money!"(of course if this observation were made today the base unit would probably be billions)</p><p> I also asked about why BLI created Precision Craft Models instead of just keeping PCM's announced products under BLI via a sub catagory(ie Paragon, Powerhouse, Brass Museum Series, etc). To their thinking the inclusion of LokSound in lieu of QSI in the product line seemed to justify distinguishing PCM from BLI.</p><p> Last question pertained to conflicting reactions(see forum postings herein) to announced BLI BlueLine. Specifically I asked, "If one is running DCC, all that one has to do to run BlueLine locos is to just add a decoder? Anyone's decoder with appropriate functionality capabilities?" The answer was, "Yes, <u><strong>that's it</strong></u>." It should be noted that the BlueLine handout that they were distributing at the show has the following notations:</p><p> <u>BlueLine products are built based on pre-orders</u>.</p><p> <u>We request that you place a pre-order with your favorite hobby dealer for your BlueLine locomotive</u>.</p><p> <u>This(pre-orders) help us to gauge production quantities and deliver the product in a more timely manner.</u></p><p> Last question pertained to any BLI/Factory Direct Trains relationship. Since the BLI display stand included PCM and Factory Direct it was self evident a relationship existed. FDT is run by the owner's son. The question I would have liked to ask is the pricing on FDT website re issue of pricing affecting LHS. It does seem from a preliminary cross check of BLI's Direct Outlet re FDT that pricing is the same. Questions lead to questions: BLI's Direct Outlet states they are returns to BLI, FDT makes no such claim(that I noticed). Are they the same condition items?</p><p> I felt I could not reasonably continue questioning BLI owner at the expense of other modelers access. So that's what I learned for what it's worth.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> Jon <span class="smiley">[8D]</span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p> Jon</p><p> I had additional questions I would have liked to ask but I felt it would be an imposition upon him and other attendees to monopolize his time.</p><p> </p><p>[/quote]</p><p>Wow! <span class="smiley">[bow]</span></p><p>That is not questioning, that is grilling. =)</p><p>If you did not ask them, I probably would.</p><p>Look, I knew squat about BLI until One Track Mind demonstrated a new Hudson 4-6-4 several years ago. I think back then the asking price was 200- for this engine but hesitant because memory is not certain. I saw this product moving back and forth on the track with sounds that were VERY VERY good. Loud too. I did express a concern with steam pulling power and purchased a Athearn Genesis Mike instead. (With no sound)</p><p>My expectations were not met with the Athearn Genesis Mike and decided to replace it with the new BLI Heavy Mike with sound which was not that much more expensive after I sold off the Athearn Mike on ebay for about what I paid for it. That for me was the beginning of a GREAT journey back into HO steam when I saw for myself just how well this engine performed with a bunch of cars.</p><p>Virtually all of my engines but two are BLI one is a little upstart 4-4-0 from MRC and Roundhouse. Every time I deal with the company they are everything a company should be.</p><p>enough of this. Now on to Tooling etc.</p><p>As I understand it, we have these engines made overseas. China or Korea or some place. In my very simple mind I worry that a Chinese Worker making 2 dollars a day assembling these engines by the dozen for us American Buyers who dont know how to live on less than 100 dollars a day.</p><p>What happens 10 years from now when this same Chinese Worker experiences what we Americans experienced in the late 50's and started moving into modern living and requires a 100 dollar a day salary to work at the choo choo factory?? Huh? Answer me that.</p><p>Yes, I say the great outsourcing of products overseas to save the American a dollar and a dime is going to bite us all in the arse at some point in the future. Especially when these Nations modernize and become the ONLY source of products for customers like us.</p><p>I say build factories right here in the USA with our own tooling and keep the costs down. Sell these engines at a reasonable price to the hobby shops and dump the old stuff onto the FDT in case the customer was not able to secure a copy before seeing it all sold out.</p><p>While we are at it, why not just close out engine sales to hobby shops totally and have the john q public buy engines off the internet only? We are already seem to be headed that way.</p><p>The only bad thing about the new engine I have coming is that I never really got to see it at one of the hobby stores and perhaps buy it there providing the owner with a small profit and a chance to feed his family. No. I think a little bit goes to UPS, some to Broadway and the rest of it straight into Shipping charges, trucking and tooling/worker factory costs in some other country that is not the USA.</p><p>Now before you write me off as an unhappy customer, I still see bunches of engines by many quality manufactors all over the stores and the internet. Some are potential purchases that might happen in the future. I wont stop buying engines because of overseas and tooling costs.</p><p>IHC is able to have engines made for decades. They are ready to go for the asking from the stock. There seems to be a inexhaustable supply of these IHC engines. No one is posting that they cannot find IHC engines except a occasional AHM from the 60's when they do it's usually parts, motors etc.</p><p>Does this mean IHC will see limited run orders the way BLI does? Probably not. But they might be tempted to add 200 dollars to thier price tag, choke off the supply and move thier production somewhere else and only stamp out 1000 copies every 5 years in the name of profit. Especially when they see the success BLI, Atlas and others have had with this business model that absolutely gaurantees a profit by lining up a small number of customers with pre-paid orders in hand in sufficient quanity to pay for the production run.</p><p>Something stinks here. Does it happen this way because the tooling can only stand up to 1000 copies of an engine? After that it's bad and gotta be thrown away until a new model tooling device be built? If so I think we are the ones being ripped off. (As a Country) I would not put it past another country overseas to charge so much money to build a tooling device that lasts for just 1000 copies and puts a price on it that they know the customers will groan under the weight with thier backs but still buy the item.</p><p>This experience serves to enlighten me a little bit about what Companies are willing to sell an engine for. The cost to make it is always somewhere below the asking price. I dont have a problem with that. This particular engine retailed for 400 dollars for a long time, I think it's STILL being retailed at 400 dollars on the BLI's website because no one has the time to update it.</p><p>What happened when ... a nice product hit the stores and train shows, everyone goes OOH... AHH.. and spends bunches of money buying these wonderful product and happily shows off this stuff to anyone that will be impressed. Glowing reviews are written, videos created and the world turns.</p><p>What happens one year from now when someone NEW to the hobby discovers this wonderful product and THEN learns the item is NOT in production and IS availible for half the orginal retail value or less ONLINE at some dump-a-product site designed to groom the owner's son into future business? They clamour for this item only to be told by hobbyshops, internet forums and emails that this product is not availible any more; try ebay or try someplace else.</p><p>What really happens to the happy owner of a 1000 dollar set of widgets paid for and waited on for 23 years until it actually got out of the Forbidden City Choo Choo Factory and into his hands? Especially now that he sees this item selling for half price. Dont you think that he will feel a little bit burned? Hurry! To Ebay, dump the item and buy TWO with the profits from some doofus who has not yet learned about Outlet Direct. That doofus might be panting for 24 years for this item. Hope he's happy with it.</p><p>[/quote]</p><p> Safety V,</p><p> Hang tight. <span class="smiley">[soapbox] er, verbosity follows.</span></p><p> Re seems like "grilling": I know what you wrote and do understand it. The question answer session with owner was a <u>real time open exchange</u> which is to say the owner did not hesitate with his answers as though seeking to put best spin on it. </p><p> Re what happens 10 years from now? The future is here <u>today</u>. I heard a news item recently where some companies are already looking for a cheaper labor pool because of rising wages in China. Think Vietnam was cited as a possible. I joke with my wife that U.S. companies won't really be happy with manufacturing wage rates until they find a country that has officially embraced slavery. Hmmm, zero wages with only "wage" cost being probable pay off to local officialdom. Let's hope these companies don't hear about illicit slavery that does exist in north Africa. I agree with you regarding the long term effect on U.S.-at some point this practice is going to <strong><u>cost</u></strong> us. My feeling is bad effect will fall under the rubric of "you can run, but you can't hide." However, for every company whose competitor goes to China/Korea for manufacturing the choice becomes tougher each day. How to compete with my competitors' prices? I think we all know how that one eventually gets resolved if you want to stay in business.</p><p> Re build the factories in the U.S. and keep the costs down. I truly believe that a sincere effort has been made in the past to do this by many companies and the bottom line keeps getting back to "I tried and I can't close the cost gap with my competitor who has elected to manufacture overseas." I think mfg in the USA has even been a policy of some in the model railroad business but can't accurately cite specific companies. IHC does manufacture overseas-I know your point re IHC is model availability as opposed to reservation/limited runs.</p><p> Re IHC being tempted. They could go reservation/limited run approach with price increase. Up to this point we've been chatting up low manufacturing costs overseas something which IHC already embraces. I truly think that before IHC could go limited run/price increase they will have to improve features and detail of their products. There are other determinants of product selection by the consumer and price is but one. I do have several of their GG-1's and the current two motor offering is an excellently performing analog loco but....As an aside I was heartened to see current issue of Model Railroader review IHC's 2-10-2. Banner on review is "freelanced" 2-10-2. Other postings on the forum re this loco have cited its non prototypical appearence. I personally could never understand the lack of reviews in MR of IHC products. I didn't expect MR to lavish praise on IHC but I thought ignoring them was a gross oversight. IHC is selling to someone and in enough quantity to stay in business. Why not review them and, if necessary(OK..necessary), give them constructive criticism to improve their products?</p><p> Re 1 year from introduction and newbie wants to buy the now non available product due to reservation/limited run business model. I can only hope that the manufacturers are trying to strike a balance between what I perceive as the "brass business model" and over production hoping the consumers will be there to buy the whole run. I may be wrong simply because I don't know the brass loco marketplace but it seems to this outsider as though with each "new" brass model you either buy/reserve or wait years for someone to offer up his model for sale. Let's hope that some loco vendor works out the dynamics so that they make a good return on their investment and sufficient product is available for those of us who can't instantly make a reservation/commitment. This may take some time before everyone is happy.</p><p> OK, have to sign off now to do some chores(damn, real world intrusions).</p><p> Jon <span class="smiley">[8D]</span></p><p> </p><p>[/quote]</p><p>Roight, I hear you and everything you put on is good to go.</p><p>I need maybe to clarify a little bit about IHC. When I was younger (Roight, when?) every hobby shop had cases FULL of engines to look at and admire. Sometimes you were permitted to take one home or maybe see a favorite under the tree. One christmas I was presented with a IHC 4-6-2 Pacific. It was totally bullet proof, had a humongus motor, good pick up and a chance to convert to Kaydees and ran very well. I had that IHC engine for a LONG time until it met it's demise due to my ignorance and my two house cats.</p><p>Was that IHC perfect? No. Was it prototypical? Err. Sorta. The PCM's upcoming 4-6-2 engines in HO promise to be very nice for the B&O road.</p><p>IHC had my consideration as I wanted a 4-8-2 mountain type engine for a long time. But went for spectrums instead because I thought the detailing is nice and there is a potential for DCC at some point in the future.</p><p>Now consider the 2-10-2 from IHC. It was reviewed to have nice weight, freelanced to a certain degree and acknowledged to be a good value for the money. But the chart in the review indicated it does not pull like an average HO steam engine. What then am I to do with the 2-10-2? The Protos old series before the current ones were too light, reputed to be unable to pull anything. The Spectrum series 2-10-2's were nice but nothing in particular about pulling ability and Broadway focuses on the Santa Fe's 2-10-2 which turns out to be a decent runner but no great shakes in the pulling dept. All of these engines underwent the review with MR.</p><p>In my heart im hoping for a genuine B&O Big Six 2-10-2 of the Sand Patch Fame, but since everyone has already produced a 2-10-2 it is likely they will not produce a "6" for 200 or so B&O modelers. So I make do with a PRR J1 2-10-4 or similar. I dont know the true number of customers who will eventually buy a product and I doubt that companies who make these production runs happen have any idea also.</p><p>To even mention that there is a possibility that a Production run may not even be sent to the factory IF... IF... not enough customers pre-order it? WHO are these companies think they are to build up customer interest especially from the faithful few who has waited a long time for a product only to be told.. "Sorry" That friends, is NOT business. That is Profiteering pure and simple.</p><p>I admired the Santa Fe passenger trains along with the NYC Passenger engines and trains as well followed the potential development of a PRR Broadway Limited or similar. I admired the walthers heavyweights and bought a complete train of them. that took about 2.5 years to get every heavyweight that I wanted for that train. Im working on the Rapidos this year and who knows? The PRR next year. I would hope so.</p><p>Looking back a little bit further, MR published some very good Harbor Articles and how several was built. Unfortunately some of the model kits such as the Walthers "Water Front Series" or the famous Barge/Carfloat series were not availible then and still is not availible today. I hope that one day they will be availible someday... probably by then I would have mastered the Laser Built Wood Craftsman kits and have no need to get plastic structure models anymore.. who knows?</p>
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