ATLANTIC CENTRAL But once I understood the nature of DCC from helping some of my friends, it was clear to me that the best approach to DCC was to hardwire decoders without the factory "DC" lighting board. I know this varies a lot wih brand and model, but if I was using DCC, I would be hardwiring from sctratch, not plugging into DC lighting boards.
But once I understood the nature of DCC from helping some of my friends, it was clear to me that the best approach to DCC was to hardwire decoders without the factory "DC" lighting board.
I know this varies a lot wih brand and model, but if I was using DCC, I would be hardwiring from sctratch, not plugging into DC lighting boards.
I always resisted the advice because most of my non-sound decoder installs included the 8-pin plug into the DC light board. That made things pretty easy.
My real problems began to occur on the Proto 2000 DCC Ready locos with their incandescent bulbs which would often burn out as soon as the decoder was installed and powered up.
More problems occurred with the D13SRP decoders witht the small circular holes on the decoder itself for function outputs 3 and 4. I fried a couple of function outputs through carelessness and ignorance.
I do think that the D13J decoder is the best of the NCE D13x alternatives because it is a four function decoder with a 9-pin harness, no soldering required on the decoder itself.
I have learned a lot about decoders and decoder wiring during this entire process and a few painful lessons.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain I live about 45 minutes from Lombard Hobbies, so I took a drive over there to buy some layout-related items. On a decoder rack, they had several NCE D13J decoders for less than $20 each. So, I bought one and when I got home, I took out the light board and the D13SRP decoder and installed the D13J decoder - - all wires, no small circular holes in the decoder in which to solder wires. It worked perfectly, and the headlight and Mars light performs as expected, just like on my other Proto 2000 PA. Hardwiring the D13J was a breeze, and it is clearly the way to go as Randy has often pointed out. Life on the layout is good once again. Rich
I live about 45 minutes from Lombard Hobbies, so I took a drive over there to buy some layout-related items.
On a decoder rack, they had several NCE D13J decoders for less than $20 each. So, I bought one and when I got home, I took out the light board and the D13SRP decoder and installed the D13J decoder - - all wires, no small circular holes in the decoder in which to solder wires. It worked perfectly, and the headlight and Mars light performs as expected, just like on my other Proto 2000 PA.
Hardwiring the D13J was a breeze, and it is clearly the way to go as Randy has often pointed out.
Life on the layout is good once again.
Being a DC operator, I mostly like these modern factory lighting boards, most of them work well with my Aristo throttles and provide great constant/directional lighting that in most cases comes on before the loco even moves.
It saves me having to built lighting circuits in most cases. There are some exceptions, where the factory design was not so good......
I have not been under the hood of many recent production DCC or DCC/sound locos, but I would hope manufacturers are not just plugging decoders into light boards any more.
I know the few newer locos that I have back converted to DC had fully intergrated DCC boards rather than a DCC decoder pluged into a lighting board.
Sheldon
rrinker OK - the Mars LED, is it connected right to the function 3 wire? That's the key. If it's connected right to the decoder and never turns off, that's most certainly a blown function. This is why I always used to use the D13SRJ - with the 9 pin plug, function 3 and function 4 were wires, I did not have to solder anything to the decoder itself to use those extra functions. ANd if you want to try using function 4, then you need to solder the LED - side to the pin marked function 4 in the decoder,
OK - the Mars LED, is it connected right to the function 3 wire? That's the key.
If it's connected right to the decoder and never turns off, that's most certainly a blown function.
This is why I always used to use the D13SRJ - with the 9 pin plug, function 3 and function 4 were wires, I did not have to solder anything to the decoder itself to use those extra functions.
ANd if you want to try using function 4, then you need to solder the LED - side to the pin marked function 4 in the decoder,
Now that the D13SR and D13SRP decoders are retired, I am looking at the D13J decoder for future projects. The D13J decoder is a replacement for the now retired D13SRJ decoder.
I strongly prefer the design of the D13J since it comes with a 9-wire harness that connects into the decoder . No holes on the decoder to mess with. Just hardwire the decoder to the light board, bypassing the factory light board.
I have been researching that D tab a little more on the light board.
On the TCS website, there is a section in decoder installations. In that section is a photo of the PA light board before installation of the decoder. The D tab connects the black wire from the headlight which would be the positive (+) side, while the Y tab next to it connects the yellow wire from the headlight which would be the negative side. So, D must stand for grounD.
However, if I wire the headlight that way with the D13SRP decoder installed, the headlight doesn't light. That leads me to believe that the 8-pin plug from the decoder somehow cancels out the D tab. In other words, no power seems to flow to the D tab in DCC mode. To get the headlight to light, I have to wire the positive side of the headlight to the Common on the decoder itself.
Any thoughts?
gmpullman richhotrain It is definitely a D. I had taken a photo of another L-L E-/ PA- board (but without the Mars Light components) for another thread, and you can clearly see the D tab. I've seen K used to designate blacK wire since B usually refers to blue. L-L_E7-8 board-W by Edmund, on Flickr Regards, Ed
richhotrain It is definitely a D.
I had taken a photo of another L-L E-/ PA- board (but without the Mars Light components) for another thread, and you can clearly see the D tab.
I've seen K used to designate blacK wire since B usually refers to blue.
L-L_E7-8 board-W by Edmund, on Flickr
Regards, Ed
From right to left, W is output 1, D is ground, and Y is output 2. On the D13SRP decoder, the order of the light functions from right to left is output 3, common, and output 4. Everything follows sequentially, 1,2,3,4, with the positive tabs in between each two outputs (1,D,2,3,C,4).
richhotrainIt is definitely a D.
rrinker The labels are mostly colors - R is the Red wire, right rail pickup, B is the Black wire, left rail pickup. The + and - are the motor, + is orange, - is grey. Y is Yellow, rear light, W is White, headlight, D (sure it's not maybe B?) is the common.
The labels are mostly colors - R is the Red wire, right rail pickup, B is the Black wire, left rail pickup. The + and - are the motor, + is orange, - is grey. Y is Yellow, rear light, W is White, headlight, D (sure it's not maybe B?) is the common.
The labels arer mostly colors - R is the Red wire, right rail pickup, B is the Black wire, left rail pickup. The + and - are the motor, + is orange, - is grey. Y is Yellow, rear light, W is White, headlight, D (sure it's not maybe B?) us the common. If you look at the dummy plug that comes in the 8 pin socket, you will see thatit has jumpers that bridge the track to the motor to one of the light pins. And then the same thing again on the other corner.
To hardwire a decoder in here, disconnect the wire from the R pin around the edge of the factory board (there's probably 2, one from each truck). Connect those to the red wire on the decoder. Same thing with the Black
+ goes to orange, - goes to grey. Now disconnect the wires going to the factory bulbs and remove the bulbs and you can remove the factory board at this point too. Wire up your LEDs - the resistor can go on either side but try to be consisten so years from now you don't get confused.
The headlight LED + side goes to the decoder Blue, the - side goes to the decoder White. The Mars LED + also goes to blue, the - goes to green or purple depending on which function output you want to be your Mars light.
For a different loco that may not follow the color coding standard, it's really no that much more difficult - the wires on the decoder DO follow the standard, so it's a matter of tracing each wire to see where it goes. Track pickup always go to the red and black on the decoder, motor always goes to orange and grey. Lights are always white and blue for the headlight, yellow and blue for the backup light, and if you decoder has more outputs, you can hook them up for other uses like a flashing beacon or something if you want.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
richhotrain Randy, earlier in this thread, you mentioned the NCE D13SRJ for hardwiring purposes because it includes the green and purple wires on the decoder instead of the holes in the decoder for Output 3 and 4 on such decoders as the D13SR. Although the D13SRJ is now retired, it is still available new on eBay. Let me ask you about some LED wiring basics. My understanding is that the longer leg is the positive anode, and the shorter leg is the negative cathode. Current flows from the positive anode to the negative cathode. The positive anode leg is wired to the Common (+) on the decoder. The negative cathode is wired to the appropriate function output (-) on the decoder. Is that all correct? Which leg of the LED gets the resistor, or does it even matter? Since the Common is typically the blue wire, does it make sense to wire the cathode side of every light, headlight, reverse light, Mars light, ditch lights, numberboards, with a blue wire to keep things obvious? From there, it looks like it is just a matter of connecting the LED wires to the appropriate wires on the decoder. That sure seems simple enough. Rich
Randy, earlier in this thread, you mentioned the NCE D13SRJ for hardwiring purposes because it includes the green and purple wires on the decoder instead of the holes in the decoder for Output 3 and 4 on such decoders as the D13SR. Although the D13SRJ is now retired, it is still available new on eBay.
Let me ask you about some LED wiring basics. My understanding is that the longer leg is the positive anode, and the shorter leg is the negative cathode. Current flows from the positive anode to the negative cathode. The positive anode leg is wired to the Common (+) on the decoder. The negative cathode is wired to the appropriate function output (-) on the decoder. Is that all correct?
Which leg of the LED gets the resistor, or does it even matter?
Since the Common is typically the blue wire, does it make sense to wire the cathode side of every light, headlight, reverse light, Mars light, ditch lights, numberboards, with a blue wire to keep things obvious?
From there, it looks like it is just a matter of connecting the LED wires to the appropriate wires on the decoder. That sure seems simple enough.
If you would, please let me know what you think about what I wrote concerning the D13SRJ decoder.
Thanks.
OMG - - - I GOT IT!
After thinking more about this problem with the Mars light, I decided to try something else. I had previously tried function output 4 without success, but this time I did something a bit different that before.
When I previously tried function output 4, I assigned it to the F1 function key. But this time around, I decided to assign function output 4 to the F2 function key.
So, instead of CV35=4 and CV122=9, I used CV36=8 and CV123=9. At first, nothing happened. Duh. I forgot to press the F2 key. So, I pressed F2. BINGO! The Mars light lit up, and it was strobing.
Sometimes, persistence pays off.
woodone The LED does not care which lead has the resistor. Also it is not necessary to have the LEDs hooked to the blue wire. You can use either rail power for powering up the LEDs. Don't forget the resistor. And yes all LEDs can be powered from the same power supply, but needs a resistor for each LED.
The LED does not care which lead has the resistor. Also it is not necessary to have the LEDs hooked to the blue wire. You can use either rail power for powering up the LEDs. Don't forget the resistor. And yes all LEDs can be powered from the same power supply, but needs a resistor for each LED.
So, are you saying that you can power the positive side of an LED, if resistored, off the rail power tab instead of wiring to the Common tab?
rrinker Well it already sounds like the factory board is bypassed for the Mars light. What seems strange is that other lighting effects work but the Mars light one does not. Very odd. You definitely are using 137 for Mars, right? The Mars effect only really dims the LED between bright flashes, and if the decoder is not set for LEDs on the function, it won't actually dim properly. --Randy
Well it already sounds like the factory board is bypassed for the Mars light. What seems strange is that other lighting effects work but the Mars light one does not. Very odd. You definitely are using 137 for Mars, right? The Mars effect only really dims the LED between bright flashes, and if the decoder is not set for LEDs on the function, it won't actually dim properly.
Back to the factory board. There is no documentation for the factory board. There is only small lettering above each tab. The motor + and motor - functions are clearly labelled, but the rest of the lettering is lacking in clarity. The rail power tabs are simply marked R and B. The function outputs for lighting are left to your best guess, as they are simply marked Y, W, and D. What is D?
Is there even such a thing as Common on the DC factory board?
I should simply follow your advice and pull out the board and hardwire the decoder. If you recall, I tried that with an NCE D13SR decoder, but I couldn't get the Mars light to oscillate or turn OFF. That is what prompted me to put the factory board back in place and install the D13SRP.
The notion of simply using the 8-pin connector as a plug-in is appealing, and it works well with only a headlight. But, the Mars light seems to complicate things.
I am tempted to give up on the 8-pin plug and just use the hard wiring concept, although that will give woodone fits. LOL. My problem with hardwiring is that I have very limited experience with it.
By the way, yes, I did try the value of 137 for the Mars light. I tried all types of values to no avail.
Let me end this reply and start another to ask you about hardwiring concepts.
woodone I am always wondering how people like yourself manage to log 20K posts and still find time to model. I struggle to make time to model and work on DCC projects. Must be something I am missing? A bit jealous On your ability to do this.
I am always wondering how people like yourself manage to log 20K posts and still find time to model. I struggle to make time to model and work on DCC projects. Must be something I am missing? A bit jealous On your ability to do this.
Also, I have been retired for nearly 13 years, so I have a lot more free time than a working stiff. And, I also start a lot of threads, mostly with questions about electronics or track performance. My practice is to manage a thread that I start, and I try to reply to anyone who replies to my thread. So, posts really add up in those situations.
It's a form of insanity. You know, doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
Seriously though I have 41 locomotives, steam and diesel, some with Mars lights. I have never paid close attention to the lighting, so I started a project to get the lighting operating prototypically. I saved my problem loco for last.
I got everything right on the other 40 locos - - no fried decoders or function outputs, no burned out lights. But, then I turned to this loco expecting everything to go smoothly, especially since I have a second identical loco which works perfectly. So, I became obsessed with getting this last loco to light prototypically.
I have given up for the moment. Someday, I will return to this problem loco and just hardwire it.
Wow- the amount of time you have spent on this is unbelievable.
scrap the lighting board and hard wire the decoder-you already found a problem with the 8 pin plug (I never use them) You keep on banging your head on a problem that can be solved with hard wiring it. WHY are you doing this to your self? Hard wire and move forward.
Yes, other light effects do work like Strobe, Double Strobe, Gyralight.
I wondered about the D13SRP that I recently purchased since the model has been retired for some time. Because I wanted to replicate what I did with the other Proto 2000 PA, I searched high and low before I found this D13SRP which was new.
At the moment, I am mentally exhausted from fiddling with this loco, first with the truck problem and then with the lighting. My problem, though, is that I just cannot let go. I keep thinking that I should hardwire the decoder and toss the light board.
But, for the moment, I am going to treat this loco's lighting as a dual headlight and move on to other projects. A big part of the problem is the fact that the headlight is wired to the light board while the Mars light is wired to the decoder. Sorta strange in my mind. But, that arrangement did work with my other Proto 2000 PA.
If it won't do the Mars effect with CV122 at 137, I suspect the oscillator in the decoder is shot. Do any of the other options work, like a Gyralight or a strrobe? Or since those decoders are actually retired, maybe you got an older one that didn't have the support for LEDs - I don't know if that option was always part of the D13SRP or not. Though since you have TWO extra function connections, it can't be the earliest ones, they only had a total of 3. It was later they upgraded the D13 family to have 4 function wires.
rrinker OK - the Mars LED, is it connected right to the function 3 wire, or is it connected to the factory board where the old incandescent light was connectect? That's the key.
OK - the Mars LED, is it connected right to the function 3 wire, or is it connected to the factory board where the old incandescent light was connectect? That's the key.
I finally achieved partial success. I got the Mars light to toggle ON and OFF by messing with CV122, but it still doesn't oscillate. I give up and will settle for what I will consider a dual headlight. I have spent way too much time on this loco. It is a lemon.
If it's connected right to the decoder and never turns off, that's most certainly a blown function. But before giving up, do a fuill reset of the decoder, then make sure CV35 is the default value of 4 so it is controlled by F1, and set CV122 to 137 (9 for Mars light, forward only, plus 128 for using an LED.
ANd if you want to try using function 4, then you need to solder the LED - side to the pin marked function 4 in the decoder, and it's CV123 that gets set to 137 because CV123 controls the effect on function 4. CV36 controls which button controls function 4 - it defaults to F2.
In either case the + side of the LED needs to go to eaither the blue wire or the pin in the middle of the 3 and 4 that is labeled C for common.
rrinker SO are you trying to drive your Mars light off the factory board, or directly from the decoder? I would be very surprised if they factory circuit can actually drive LEDs. I doubt it would oscillate. And having seen a couple of these locos, they don;t all appear to have the same circuit. To use the factory board, you need to connect the function wire to the normally unused pin 3 on the 8 pin plug. If you used function wire 3, and then wanted to try and use function wire 4, you have to unsolder function 3 and solder on function 4 - where are you expecting power to get to the factory board? ANd when doing it this way - you do not configure the function output for Mars light, just simple ona nd off. Unhook your LEDs fromt he factory board. Hook one of them to function wire 3, and the other to the blue (assuming you have a 1K resistor in there. JUST ONE LED - there is no reasion to use 2 for the decoder's function. Set the CVs as listed in the D13SRP instructions, but use 137, not 9, for the Mars effect - you need to set it for use with an LED. Bet you get a Mars light effect now. --Randy
SO are you trying to drive your Mars light off the factory board, or directly from the decoder?
I would be very surprised if they factory circuit can actually drive LEDs. I doubt it would oscillate. And having seen a couple of these locos, they don;t all appear to have the same circuit.
To use the factory board, you need to connect the function wire to the normally unused pin 3 on the 8 pin plug. If you used function wire 3, and then wanted to try and use function wire 4, you have to unsolder function 3 and solder on function 4 - where are you expecting power to get to the factory board? ANd when doing it this way - you do not configure the function output for Mars light, just simple ona nd off.
Unhook your LEDs fromt he factory board. Hook one of them to function wire 3, and the other to the blue (assuming you have a 1K resistor in there. JUST ONE LED - there is no reasion to use 2 for the decoder's function. Set the CVs as listed in the D13SRP instructions, but use 137, not 9, for the Mars effect - you need to set it for use with an LED.
Bet you get a Mars light effect now.
The way that this is all set up is that the decoder has an 8-pin connector wired to it, and the 8-pin connector's male pins fit into the matching female pins on the 8-pin connector soldered onto the DC light board.
The headlight is wired to Output 1 on the light board, and it is controlled by the FL/F0 keys on the throttle. The Mars light is wired to Output 3 on the decoder, and it is controlled by the F1 key on the throttle.
One thing that I continue to stress is that this is the identical setup on my other Proto 2000 PA, and the lighting works perfectly on that loco including an oscillating Mars light that turns ON and OFF by toggling the F1 key.
On the problem PA, pressing the F1 key on the throttle does nothing.
Might be worth giving NCE a call.
rrinker Always on usually means the function outpout is blown. When you tried function output 4, I assume you swapped the wire on the 8 pin connector, and also the CVs to set to make function wire 4 operate as on/off but only in forward direction are going to be different.
Always on usually means the function outpout is blown. When you tried function output 4, I assume you swapped the wire on the 8 pin connector, and also the CVs to set to make function wire 4 operate as on/off but only in forward direction are going to be different.
rrinker Did you replace the Mars light with an LED, or is it still the dual filament incandescent bulb?
rrinker Also, I'm not sure why the instructions say to set the effect for Mars light - if you're using the factory board, you just need to turn power on and off to the factory board, the factory oscillator will make the Mars light flash. If yopu wired the decoder funtion to an LED and repalced the factory setting - not that for LEDs on the D13SRP you need to add 128 to the effect value - so for an LED with 1K or more resistor connected to function wire 3, it's not 9 for Mars light, it's 137. Otherwise the LED may always appear on and not flash. But it should go off when the function is turned off.
Two things are not happening with the Mars light. It does not turn off when I press the F1 key, and it does not oscillate.
You raise a good point about the "factory oscillator". As I read the instructions, it says to set CV122 to 9 to configure output 3 as a forward only Mars light. That seems to imply that you need to change nothing to create the oscillating effect.
Did you replace the Mars light with an LED, or is it still the dual filament incandescent bulb?
Also, I'm not sure why the instructions say to set the effect for Mars light - if you're using the factory board, you just need to turn power on and off to the factory board, the factory oscillator will make the Mars light flash. If yopu wired the decoder funtion to an LED and repalced the factory setting - not that for LEDs on the D13SRP you need to add 128 to the effect value - so for an LED with 1K or more resistor connected to function wire 3, it's not 9 for Mars light, it's 137. Otherwise the LED may always appear on and not flash. But it should go off when the function is turned off.