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Tsunami 1 prepared a very pleasant surprise - it can provide excellent motor control

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  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Zagreb / Croatia /Europe
  • 259 posts
Tsunami 1 prepared a very pleasant surprise - it can provide excellent motor control
Posted by Spalato68 on Wednesday, December 9, 2020 1:01 PM
Hi, everybody, I have one very nice experience to share related to Tsunami 1 sound decoder. 
 
For 12 years, since I bought my first Tsunami 1 decoder I believed that this sound decoder cannot provide decent motor control. I tried all kinds of methods to achieve at least some acceptable running, especially in slow speed range, but without any stable success. This effort was not restricted on just one locomotive, but several (diesel and steam), and the result was always the same – no smooth start and stop. With sound was a different story, especially steam – despite some objections from others, I was very satisfied. The same experience related to motor control I followed here in forum and elsewhere from other colleagues. So, verdict was final – Tsunami 1 has bad motor control and nothing can be done about it except replacing it with another brand.
  
Then, a few days ago I decided to replace original Roco motor from my Proto 2000 Y3 2-8-8-2. This locomotive was running better than any other with Tsunami 1 decoder I have, but as I had coreless Maxon motor at hand, and replacement was very easy to complete, I did it.
  
The result really amazed me. Locomotive was moving like ESU 4.0 or even 5.0 is inside, or any other new decoder with superior motor control compared to old Tsunami 1.
  
I very quickly found optimal CV values:
CV 209 = 45
CV 210 = 3 (or 4)
CV 212 = 150 – 170
CV 213 = 3 or 4 (finally 3)
CV 214 = 3 or 4 (finally 3)
CV 2 was set to 1.
 
I still did not believe that this is possible because Tsunami 1 has good motor control, but because of some unexplainable match between Tsunami 1 and just this particular Maxon coreless motor. So I decided to connect decoder wires for motor from Y3 2-8-8-2 locomotive to another coreless motor (Japanese Namiki) that I had in opened Genesis F7. Result was the same, except that Namiki was able to move the locomotive even with CV 210 set at 1 or 2. Maxon would not move with these settings, Namiki is much more “lively”, even on DC it moves much earlier than this Maxon I have.
  
I assume many still have old Tsunami 1 in their locomotives – so if someone is not satisfied with motor control, there is a possibility how to change that without replacing a decoder which was bought in average for 90-100 USD. Coreless motors can be found from 3 USD upwards, standard price for 17x25 mm motor (satisfies most applications) is in range 17-25 USD (new, China).
 
I made a short video of what I explained above:
 
Hrvoje
  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 21,669 posts
Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, December 9, 2020 1:25 PM

Coreless motors have been da bomb since I first saw them used in model railroading circa 1970.  They are even better now that high-strength magnets give the smaller sizes better torque.

Be aware that you may need caution running some of these motors on the 'wrong' kind of non-DCC powerpack.  As this thread does not involve straight DC response I won't discuss that any further.

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Zagreb / Croatia /Europe
  • 259 posts
Posted by Spalato68 on Wednesday, December 9, 2020 1:44 PM

Coreless motors does not like low frequency PWM (pulse width modulation) - their rotor consists just of wire, no iron core - therefore they cannot dissipate heat quickly. Low frequency PWM destroys them. Therefore now all DCC decoders work with at least 20 kHz, ESU/ZIMO with 40 - 50 kHz. Tsunami 1 offers 22 kHz, which is excellent considered when this decoder was launched on the market. 

Hrvoje

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Bakersfield, CA 93308
  • 6,526 posts
Posted by RR_Mel on Wednesday, December 9, 2020 2:13 PM

I have had very good luck with the Faulhaber 2224RS motors.  They perform extremely well on either DC or DCC.  I have 6 Rivarossi articulated locomotives with the 2224RS motors and two tenders equipped with decoders, one WOW and one Tsunami.  I swap the around the DCC equipped tenders as well as DC only tenders depending on which locomotive and mode I want to run at the moment.

You are correct both decoders have excellent motor control.  The Faulhaber motors do very well on either decoder or on DC.

Before I bought the WOW I used an MRC 1731 and it also worked very good, the Tsunami and WOW have much more realistic SP Cab Forward and AC-9 sound.

Since Randy walked me through the BEMF setup all my decoders and motors work great.
 

Mel



 
My Model Railroad   
http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 

  • Member since
    February 2005
  • From: Vancouver Island, BC
  • 23,330 posts
Posted by selector on Wednesday, December 9, 2020 5:44 PM

I performed this very series of adjustments on a BLI BlueLine DC Class J 4-8-4 back about 2010 into which I placed a Tsunami 1.  The instructions were provided on another forum, and I felt anything was better than what the basic CV's were able to provide.  I'm happy to say that the J ran silky smooth, right from speed step 1 through to the top of its range.

  • Member since
    April 2012
  • From: Huron, SD
  • 1,016 posts
Posted by Bayfield Transfer Railway on Wednesday, December 9, 2020 5:59 PM

Actually, the Tsunami 1 has VERY good motor control with Back EMF.

Unfortunately, the default is OFF, they don't call it "Back EMF", they call it something else, it's buried deep in the technical manual, and it has something like 4 or 5 CVs that need to be adjusted.

I'll dig around and try to find the excellent web page that talks about how to do the adjustment.

 

Disclaimer:  This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.

Michael Mornard

Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!

  • Member since
    February 2005
  • From: Vancouver Island, BC
  • 23,330 posts
Posted by selector on Wednesday, December 9, 2020 11:50 PM

It's here, at Mark's site:

SoundTraxx - Mark Gurries (google.com)

 

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Zagreb / Croatia /Europe
  • 259 posts
Posted by Spalato68 on Thursday, December 10, 2020 12:08 AM

Bayfield Transfer Railway

Actually, the Tsunami 1 has VERY good motor control with Back EMF.

Unfortunately, the default is OFF, they don't call it "Back EMF", they call it something else, it's buried deep in the technical manual, and it has something like 4 or 5 CVs that need to be adjusted.

They call it "Hyperdrive". The CV's are 209, 210, 212, 213 and 214. 

I'll dig around and try to find the excellent web page that talks about how to do the adjustment.

If you mean DCC University by Bruce Petrarca, I could not find the text explaining how to set Tsunami 1 which was available before on that web site. But I saved that part of web page on my PC a decade ago, here is a snapshot of most important part:

 

But with most iron core motors, Tsunami 1 has serious problems in first few speed steps.

Hrvoje

  • Member since
    June 2007
  • 8,892 posts
Posted by riogrande5761 on Friday, December 11, 2020 8:49 AM

Bayfield Transfer Railway

Actually, the Tsunami 1 has VERY good motor control with Back EMF.

Unfortunately, the default is OFF, they don't call it "Back EMF", they call it something else, it's buried deep in the technical manual, and it has something like 4 or 5 CVs that need to be adjusted.

I'll dig around and try to find the excellent web page that talks about how to do the adjustment. 

I have read that back EMF should not be used for loco mu'd to other locos, you know, like the Rio Grande did being a mountain RR.  Reason being the locos in mu with back EMF fight each other.  So that solution may not work in those common instance but only for locos running alone like switchers.  None of my switchers have Tsunami 1.  But my GP40-2 does, but it would run my with other diesels.  Oh well.

Rio Grande.  The Action Road  - Focus 1977-1983

  • Member since
    February 2002
  • From: Reading, PA
  • 30,002 posts
Posted by rrinker on Friday, December 11, 2020 9:33 AM

 Never had a problem with BEMF and consists, but I don't use any Soundtraxx decoders.  That "they will fight each other" I think is rumormongering from the early days of DCC when most decoders didn;t have BEMF and everyone equated it to 'cruise control' where it would make your loco runt he exact same speed no matter what.

 If the locos fight one another - then it's either a poor BEMF implementation, or some parameters are way out of whack. I've had no problems running multiple TCS decoders together, or TCS and QSI even, all with BEMF turned on. Even my first two P2K locos that I put Digitrax decoders in, ran fine together with BEMF on.

                             --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

  • Member since
    June 2007
  • 8,892 posts
Posted by riogrande5761 on Friday, December 11, 2020 9:39 AM

 

I could be wrong but thought I read the EMF mu issue from Mr Fugate, from that which shall not be spoken.  Not a rumor thing at the time.

So many have complained about Tsunami 1 motor control, why has so much time gone by with no mention of a magic fix?  Just complaining about motor control so steer clear of Tsu1 as been a mantra.

Anyway, if the masses reporting poor motor control are wrong, then that is better news for me as I do have a Tsunami 1 Genesis GP40-2.

And what about the ST Economi decoders?

Rio Grande.  The Action Road  - Focus 1977-1983

  • Member since
    April 2012
  • From: Huron, SD
  • 1,016 posts
Posted by Bayfield Transfer Railway on Friday, December 11, 2020 2:41 PM

Tsunami2 and Economi, they learned from their mistakes.  Back EMF is default ON, and is easier to adjust.

I have 2 TS1.  I'll live with having to putz with them.

 

Disclaimer:  This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.

Michael Mornard

Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!

  • Member since
    February 2002
  • From: Reading, PA
  • 30,002 posts
Posted by rrinker on Friday, December 11, 2020 8:04 PM

riogrande5761

 

I could be wrong but thought I read the EMF mu issue from Mr Fugate, from that which shall not be spoken.  Not a rumor thing at the time.

So many have complained about Tsunami 1 motor control, why has so much time gone by with no mention of a magic fix?  Just complaining about motor control so steer clear of Tsu1 as been a mantra.

Anyway, if the masses reporting poor motor control are wrong, then that is better news for me as I do have a Tsunami 1 Genesis GP40-2.

And what about the ST Economi decoders?

 

 That may or may not have started there, not sure anymore as it was back in the dark ages of DCC. What MIGHT have been confusing people is that Digitrax decoders with BEMF have 2 settings - one for running normally and one for when running in a consist - caveat, by in consist they mean a CV29 consists, so the setting actually is meaningless to Digitrax users - whatever the BEMF setting is for running alone is what it will use in a Digitrax consist. But for Joe and other NCE users - if you make no changes, BEMF will be completely off when the loco is added to a consist. It MAY be a case of the resulting poor(er) running, or another loco with a different decoder that has BEMF regardless of consist status, coupled to a Digitrax one which runs fine alone, now gets erratic. The issue actually is because BEMF is turned off, not be cause it is on in a consist. Maybe that's how it all got started.

                               --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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