I didn't say I don't like PCBs - I just never made my own prior to a couple of years ago. Now I make them for everything.
Lee is one of the big players on the groups.io group. I think if I'd build a new one for any reason I'd probably use the Elf2K design and do what I never did with mine - add a terminal. They've developed an OS (since CP/M won't run on the 1802) and have CF 'hard drives' as well as ported various BASIC dialects.
Thing is, I can do all that in simulators that run on my modern computer. Every computer I ever owned int he past, every video console from my first Atari 2600 to the last console I owned, an XBox 360, can be simulated. Most of it on nothing more than a Raspberry Pi - if I build ANYTHING retro like, it would probably be a full size arcade machine using a RPi so I can play all the old games I remember from my youth on an actual machine with nice hefty arcade style controls.
I remember all of the fun and crazy things I did with my TRS-80, but I don't think I'd get the same enjoyment out of it today - it's only been a few years since I tossed it, but it hadn't been working for close to 20. I do hace 2 other retro systems that work, but I barely use them - a TRS-80 Model 100 portable, and an early 80's NEC PC8801 which has both a Z80 and an 8088 and can run both CP/M or MSDOS. It's fun to show them off once in a while (I still have to get a new battery for the Model 100 - good thing I opened it up, it was just starting to leak so I was able to get it out and clean up the PCB before any real damage occurred - but now it looses any data when you change out the AAs), but otherwise I guess I just am not into the whole retro computing thing as others.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinkerNo ordinary Elf - I have a Super Elf.
Pity you don't like PCBs, though:
http://www.sunrise-ev.com/1802.htm
(although I'll grant you a suitable hex keyboard that fits in there might not be easy to find...)
No ordinary Elf - I have a Super Elf.
rrinkerI'd say my computer was more complex, but that was a kit, not something I designed
It would be of no real benefit. I spent maybe 25-30% of my time at my first post-graduate job (where I was hired as an electricla engineer) actually being an electrical engineer, and that was the last job I had where I did any of that. It's only recently with the advent of the cheap PCB services that I've ever made PCBs for anything - I used to point to point wire everything. And the railroad related things I've designed recently are far more complex than anything I ever did before. I'd say my computer was more complex, but that was a kit, not something I designed (though in building it and learning to use it, I COULD draw a PCB and design a new version of it - while there is a very active groups.io group on it, I don't see much point in it. I still have a working one. A few replacement components for some that are now unobtanium, and questional CPUs from Chinese sellers - no new ones have been made since the mid/late 80's as it was available in a rad-hardened version and thus used in some defense projects as well as NASA things. Not Voyager as some will claim, Voyager was designed and launched before this CPU ever came out, but the Hubble originally had a couple. And a couple of the Mars probes from the late 70's. And a bunch of amateur radio OSCAR satellites. I still remember most of the opcodes, and it does have the potential for a lot of IO ports, so maybe I could find a purpose in model railroad control, but a $2 ATMega 328 already has the IO ports, RAM, and everything else on a single chip. And runs significantly faster. Just on raw clockspeed, the ATMega is 4 to 5x as fasr, but then some instructions on the old CPU take 3 clock cycles to process. So 8-10x faster, cheaper, and easily programmed with higher level languages than straight assembly. That old computer taught me a lot, and I'll try to always keep it operational, but as a practical device in a modern world - not so much. One thing about it is it is completely static, so you can stop the clock, it then draws no power, and when the clock is reatrted, it picks right up where it left off. It's also very low pwoer when running, it's LED indicators and such that use all the current. Which made it great for space and also for remote monitoring instruments that would get set in place with a battery pack and left for months.
rrinkerI'm not even close enough to be space or defense qualified.
Older Standards (but still perfectly good advice):
https://nepp.nasa.gov/docuploads/06AA01BA-FC7E-4094-AE829CE371A7B05D/NASA-STD-8739.3.pdf
Older Training (still valid for MR practice):
https://protostack.com.au/download/NASA%20Student%20Handbook%20for%20Hand%20Soldering.pdf
Perennial Bureaucracy:
https://snebulos.mit.edu/projects/reference/NASA-Generic/NASA-STD-8739-6.pdf
Older European Space Agency on reliable electrical soldering (includes more RoHS concerns):
http://esmat.esa.int/Publications/Published_papers/ECSS-Q-70-08B_Draft_4_20-04-2007.pdf
Little of this is really, pardon me for saying it, rocket science... although it is highly bureaucratic. Current ITC standard last I explicitly checked was J-STD-001HS (released 11/06/20)... so time for recertification I suppose.
SERIOUSLY I'm not suggesting that anyone go through certified training, or stay up-to-the-minute on modern laser methods. Not everything we went to space with in the '60s and '70s is obsolescent, and i think this is true of things beginning to affect MR as things get smaller and more 'microcontrolled'...
There's a video floating around on YouTube that has some details on what it took to get qualified to solder circuits for the space program. Probably the oldest thing I have that I soldered that's still around is my first computer, which is now over 40 years old - still works, no bad solder joints, or failed in the interim. So I suppose my soldering skills are plenty adequate for the stuff needed for basic circuits and model trains. And I've only gotten better since I was 13 years old. But I'm not even close enough to be space or defense qualified.
Who knew that soldering could be so complicated? I can't look back. All my soldering has been pretty straight forward with good results. I am pleased with my efforts. Sometimes, it is better to not know.
Rich
Alton Junction
SeeYou190Overmod, there were no insults in my post, I did not say you were wrong about anything, and no feather-ruffling was intended.
I thought this part was hilarious, and should have tipped you off that everything was light hearted and tongue-in-cheek: There was never a mention of copper bearing anti gravity neutralized proton imported flux impregnated net carbon neutral dilithium tribaloy solder.
There was never a mention of copper bearing anti gravity neutralized proton imported flux impregnated net carbon neutral dilithium tribaloy solder.
I'm glad I took out the part about using impossibilium infused solder to bond annealed adamantium.
But doesn't adamantium contain chemical resins, so you'd need a low, low-melting thermosetting eutectic of unobtanium and impossibilium to solder to it?
(Facilitated by GERN vanishing look-quick-or-you'll-miss-it numba one liquoetheric flux, of course.)
OvermodEssentially what I said, but I said it without the insults.
Overmod, there were no insults in my post, I did not say you were wrong about anything, and no feather-ruffling was intended.
I thought this part was hilarious, and should have tipped you off that everything was light hearted and tounge-in-cheek:
SeeYou190There was never a mention of copper bearing anti gravity neutralized proton imported flux impregnated net carbon neutral dilithium tribaloy solder.
Sorry if you read something into my post that was not intentional.
I am going to go fetch a glass of warm milk from the replicator and hit the rack.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
SeeYou190I would place a healthy wager than 99.9% of soldering jobs in our hobby are perfectly successful without any considerations for just how complicated it could be made out to be, if that is what brings you pleasure.
Yes, just like there are two types of telephone/network cable. The regular stuff, and the plkenum rated stuff that is allowed to be run in HVAC return plenums in buildings - it's teflon insulated so it doesn't for a firee run through the plenum, and while it's no problem using it for its intended purpose with punch blocks and crimp on connectors, to actually strip it and use it for general wiring - avoid it, unless someone gives you a bundle for free.
One of my friends works in the manufacture of high-end testing instruments. They DO have to comply with things like expiration dates on components and consumables.
To my benefit He gives me lots of goodies that the company has to dispose of including excellent solder and flux, heat shrink tubing, desoldering wicks, wire ties plus tons of surplus stuff they have.
These companies have to comply with strict RoHS standards and every process must be traceable to the materials used. One inch of out-of-date solder can trash an entire project.
I've got lots of fine-gauge wire on hand but this is what I usually use for decoder installs. They have another box with five other colors available, too.
Some of the signal wire I bought has PTFE or Teflon insulation. That stuff is a bear to strip cleanly. FWIW.
Regards, Ed
There is no need to over-complicate what is a routine task and an easy skill to learn... soldering in relation to electric model trains.
This is the kind of thing that can discourage a courious newcomer, or cause analysis paralysis in some experienced modelers.
I have read hundreds of examples of how-to articles in Model-Railroader and other information sources about soldering, and there was never a mention of copper bearing anti gravity neutralized proton imported flux impregnated net carbon neutral dilithium tribaloy solder.
I would place a healthy wager than 99.9% of soldering jobs in our hobby are perfectly successful without any considerations for just how complicated it could be made out to be, if that is what brings you pleasure.
I sort of do and I still don;t think this is even remotely a concern for DCC and model railroading. Now if you were assembling modules that need to be space rated for service on the ISS or in satellites - ok, it's a lot more important than you might think.
As far as expiringing - the solder paste used for surface mount assembly - that stuff DOES rapidly expire once opened up. Even properly stored, once a tube of that is opened, it goes bad in just a few days at best. But that's mainly do to the components of it that make it a paste and the flux are what go bad, the grains of solder alloy within the mixture don't go bad.
richhotrainI did not understand the reference to "actual atomic diffusion of copper mass..." I still don't.
An acknowledged problem with soldering silver and silverplate with tin/lead alloys is that some of the silver preferentially dissolves in the metal of the solder join, and it was to preclude this that extra 'silver' is in silver solder (meaning 'solder silversmiths use when working with fabricating silver').
Meanwhile, it was and is common knowledge that copper has a similar issue when soldered, to the extent that fine lead wires can become fragile or break after being subjected to being soldered. While this would be of relatively little concern to most 'normal' hobby soldering, the subject at hand is very fine gauge copper (specifically 36-gauge, which in Vicryl is terrifyingly fine and in wire no less so) or the thin strands making up Litz wire. I personally find the rationale for Cardas quad eutectic (which is to add necessary percentage of both elemental copper and silver to the alloy) reasonable in addressing this potential issue; in fact, I'd find it beneficial for a number of heavier 'fine' gauges, too.
I'm not going to do a Mike on how the copper or silver goes from the wire into the solder; the verifiable TL;DR is that when it does it can damage thin connections.
Overmod, I presume that you were directing you reply to Kevin. But, the reason that I said that you lost me was your earlier reply to Randy in which you stated,
"Just to be clear, the thing I was talking about is actual atomic diffusion of copper mass into the solder alloy, not 'wicking' or capillary attraction as in solder braid or Litz wire.
I did not understand the reference to "actual atomic diffusion of copper mass..."
I still don't.
SeeYou190 richhotrain Now you lost me. I guess I have just been lucky with all the successful soldering I have executed for decades. I obviously have no idea what I am doing.
richhotrain Now you lost me.
I guess I have just been lucky with all the successful soldering I have executed for decades. I obviously have no idea what I am doing.
If you have an issue, take it up with those who understand the potential importance of including an appropriate percentage of copper or silver in solder alloy. Don't pretend it's just my tweak opinion -- that won't wash here.
richhotrainNow you lost me.
Me too, very very lost.
Overmod rrinker Can't say I've had any problem with solder uptake into the fine wires used for decoders. Just to be clear, the thing I was talking about is actual atomic diffusion of copper mass into the solder alloy, not 'wicking' or capillary attraction as in solder braid or Litz wire.
rrinker Can't say I've had any problem with solder uptake into the fine wires used for decoders.
Just to be clear, the thing I was talking about is actual atomic diffusion of copper mass into the solder alloy, not 'wicking' or capillary attraction as in solder braid or Litz wire.
rrinkerCan't say I've had any problem with solder uptake into the fine wires used for decoders.
I confess I was a fan of using a higher-melt solder to 'tin' twisted-stranded or Litz into a solid, more easily bendable end, then solder that with lower-melting eutectic. You could easily use silver or copper-bearing alloys for this purpose while maintaining ease of final wire secure ment to pads, or splicing.
SeeYou190 jjdamnit For solder Kester brand is recommended by several decoder manufacturers. Part #2463370007. I got mine at Kimco. Again, it's more expensive than other solders but a single 1-lb roll will last a lifetime. My rolls of Kester solder have dates on them. I assume it is a manufacturing date since the date had passed when I received the rolls. Is there a reason for the date? Does solder age-out or go bad? -Kevin
jjdamnit For solder Kester brand is recommended by several decoder manufacturers. Part #2463370007. I got mine at Kimco. Again, it's more expensive than other solders but a single 1-lb roll will last a lifetime.
My rolls of Kester solder have dates on them. I assume it is a manufacturing date since the date had passed when I received the rolls.
Is there a reason for the date? Does solder age-out or go bad?
rrinker Solder doesn't go bad
That is what I was thinking.
I guess there are people out there building fine electronics that probably consider it important to either rotate their solder stock or use the freshest product they have on hand.
Solder doesn't go bad, but the flux core can become less active over time.
I've been using a spool I got when I got my Fast Tracks jigs to try making my own turnouts. I've been here almost 8 years, 5 1/2 years in my previous place where I had my old layout, and I probably was in the place before that at least 6 months after I bought the solder. I recently built up one of my circuits with it and it soldered fine. There's probably 3/4 lb left on this 1 pound spool - at the price of solder, I'm not throwing this out to get fresh since it still works fine.
Can't say I've had any problem with solder uptake into the fine wires used for decoders. To get solder to penetrate like that along the length of the wire, the heat would have to be on long enough to melt a good chunk of the insulation back as well. It's not Litz wire that needs to remain flexible or risk breakage - properly planned, all the joints and their shrink wrap should come out fairly close, making a convenient point to tie down to the loco chassis with a piece of Kapton tape.
jjdamnitFor solder Kester brand is recommended by several decoder manufacturers. Part #2463370007. I got mine at Kimco. Again, it's more expensive than other solders but a single 1-lb roll will last a lifetime.
Overmod One thing about using wire as thin as 36: if it is copper or silver, the amount of diffusion into a solder joint may be significant. You should use a copper-loaded solder, or something like Cardas quad-eutectic, if you go to extremely fine wire.
One thing about using wire as thin as 36: if it is copper or silver, the amount of diffusion into a solder joint may be significant. You should use a copper-loaded solder, or something like Cardas quad-eutectic, if you go to extremely fine wire.
I use a lot of Tomar Industries signals, both searchlights and dwarfs as well as crossing signals. The wires are very thin, even fragile, so I extend them by soldering the ends to thicker wire, say 22 gauge stranded, and then apply heat shrink tubing over the joint for reinforcement.
Typical decoder wire is 30 to 32 gauge.
Signal wire can be as small as 36 gauge.
ndbprr My original post us about wiring a decoder.
My original post us about wiring a decoder.