Some of these would be interesting to see documented in 'implementation detail'.
[Incidentally, for those wondering about the BASIC Stamp alternative, brought up earlier in this thread:
https://www.egr.msu.edu/classes/me456/radcliff/homework/BSM-v2.2.pdf
(Other versions are available)]
Personally, I've always favored the idea of having 'automation' do the operating tasks on a layout that aren't "fun" for the thing I'm doing. One example we've covered is having a locomotive consist react prototypically to control inputs. Manufacturers like ESU are then faced with a wretched dilemma: make DCC interfaces that only imperfectly simulate 'the real thing' while keeping that turn-up-the-volume-to-go-faster interface that so many modelers prefer. A solution is to offload the many calculations needed to 'emulate the prototype' into a simulation system that can recreate any 'compressed representation' of real behavior and then send the appropriate signals over DCC to have a given decoder respond correctly. In fact, for people like me who have yearned many decades to have proportional valve gear on model steam locomotives, it is almost trivial to arrange a signal to keep the motion proportional whether or not a tweak guy like me wants separate prototype throttle and cutoff.
Again personally, I find it almost inconceivable that we'd want to go back to the 1860s and hand-throw every switch to line a complicated plant for a through move ... let alone that the train engineer be the one to do it. Most remote switches are power switches; physical implementation of interlocking is a complex pain; recreating signal operation 'prototypically' with relays gets complicated, expensive, and perhaps unreliable fast... just like the prototype. I can easily see the desirability of being able to call for a route, or act as dispatcher, and have all the switches and equipment move correctly and unerringly so when I see green I can go. (Note I can still flip switches by hand if I want to...)
I don't know how many modelers like the idea of implementing 'simulation' on their railroad, but computer assist greatly facilitates this in other than the Train Sim method. One classical thing that older simulators did was simulate complex or emergent failures -- weather or turbulence, component failure, a progressing fire or hydraulic leak, battle damage -- and this might add immeasurably to the realism of an operating session (imagine the fun in strategically putting sonething with a little pentane in a GE model, complete with appropriate sounds ) -- but more seriously, mimic the effect of temperature, of flooding, of flat wheels from mishandled cars. That is a different kind of fun (and not fun at all to many people, truth to tell myself included) but I'd bet there are many who'd enjoy it if they could have it...
I've used a few Arduinos on my layout, mainly to enhance the operation of it and automate some aspects that are not directly related to running trains. These include:
They're quite flexible, and seem to have hardware modules and software libraries available for almost anything.
The Location: Forests of the Pacific Northwest, OregonThe Year: 1948The Scale: On30The Blog: http://bvlcorr.tumblr.com
My signal system uses a MEGA, 8 blocks bidirectional on my mainline. It only controls the LED signal heads by track occupation. I operate (run) my trains by using the throttle on my DC power pack or when in DCC mode the Prodigy hand held, I would never use a processor of any type to operate (run) my layout. That would take away the fun of having a layout.I only use the Arduinos to control the accessories on my layout.I have toggle switches on my control panel to operate my turnouts, regular DPDT for the Tortoise that operates my double crossover and SPDT center off momentary for solenoid operated switch machines. Turnout position indication on my control panel is done with latching relays.
I'm working on using servos as switch machines and if I do decide to use servos they will be operated using an Arduino but sill using toggle switches on my control panel, not automated.
Again I would never automate any portion of running the trains on my layout.Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
Let me put it this way. I am fascinated with the apparent capabilities of Arduino, especially after watching some YouTube videos. As an aside, someone in another thread mentioned using JMRI to move freight cars between the yard and the sidings. This all sounds so very cool.
So, I was thinking big when I mused about my own 25' x 42' layout, wondering what it would take to partially automate it or to fully automate it. In other words, to operate signals, and turnouts, and routes, and waybills, and whatever. But, in the end, I concluded that it would be a whole lot easier and a lot more fun to runs trains on my layout manually with as little automation as possible.
Rich
Alton Junction
still a little unclear what is meant by operate: operate as in running a schedule of trains TT&TO, operate turnouts and signals on the layout or simply operate (run) a train. far from fully automated
a significant amount of electronics and software would be needed to implement a CTC board or computer screen, relying on a dispatcher to align turnouts and set signals using CTC. while electronically controlled, there is no intelligence in the electronics to determine how to set turnouts or signals.
however, an arduino could easily control an interlock, aligning turnouts and setting signals determined by a pairs of buttons selecting a route (see below, circles represent buttons).
at what point does operating a more complicated layout become tedious and some intelligence makes operation more enjoyable. would you prefer cab control over DCC?
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
RR_Mel The Arduino processors are great!! Like Rich I prefer to operate my trains myself, not automated by a computer. But for accessories they are fantastic! I have 12 Arduinos running automation all over my layout and no doubt will add more as time goes on.
The Arduino processors are great!! Like Rich I prefer to operate my trains myself, not automated by a computer. But for accessories they are fantastic! I have 12 Arduinos running automation all over my layout and no doubt will add more as time goes on.
gregc richhotrain I think that the concept of "programming" Arduinos to operate portions or all of a layout will have appeal to a select segment of the modeling community. by operate a layout, i assume you don't mean automate, which would be a significant effort.
richhotrain I think that the concept of "programming" Arduinos to operate portions or all of a layout will have appeal to a select segment of the modeling community.
by operate a layout, i assume you don't mean automate, which would be a significant effort.
The Arduino processors are great!! Like Rich I prefer to operate my trains myself, not automated by a computer. But for accessories they are fantastic! I have 12 Arduinos running automation all over my layout and no doubt will add more as time goes on.I even have a pair for my diorama I’m working on, kinda stupid because the diorama is being built for taking still pictures. I have working crossing flashers and a house with a lighting controller.One of the neatest uses I have is the Arduino Bluetooth for controlling the 120° pan on my camera car. The camera has WiFi video that I use to control the camera functions and as a live viewfinder to see where the camera is pointed on the control panel mounted 7” tablet view finder screen.
I have one Arduino that randomly turns on a motor operating a winch cable on my mine elevator moving the pulleys.The only limiting factor is your imagination. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
richhotrainI think that the concept of "programming" Arduinos to operate portions or all of a layout will have appeal to a select segment of the modeling community.
richhotrainIt could take an inordinate amount of time to master the programming skills ...
certainly true except for the small % of modelers who are technically inclined. the same could be said for the small % of modelers who actual design and fabricate their own circuit boards. probably less true for the larger % of modelers who've learned to build turnouts from scratch.
i was surprised to read that Arduinos were developed with physical computing in mind, which i thought suggested animated artwork.
but knowing how provides the means of solving small layout problems in ways that may be uncomplicated, inexpensive and have no commercial solution
Thanks for those links, greg. I read through the material that the links took me to, and I have to say, it was very interesting, if not downright exciting. But, that's me, an ex-programmer and systems analyst turned financial planner, all while attending night law school.
I think that the concept of "programming" Arduinos to operate portions or all of a layout will have appeal to a select segment of the modeling community. But, it presents its own challenges. It could take an inordinate amount of time to master the programming skills to effectively use Arduinos to operate portions or all of a layout. And, let's face it, programming code can be tedious and, sometimes, downright boring. And, tracking, finding, and correcting programming errors can be daunting.
After reading the materials that you linked to, I watched a few YouTube videos of small layouts with simple track plans to see the effect of arduino on operations - - a simple oval with a siding and two trains running simultaneously between the siding and the mainline, for example. Pretty cool.
Then, I thought about my layout with a 10-track passenger station, sidings for 13 freight houses, a multi-track coach yard and freight yard, and an engine servicing facility with a turntable and 9-stall roundhouse. And, I began to wonder how long it might take to fully automate my layout with a series of Arduinos. It has taken me nearly three years to build my current layout, and I am not done yet. So, who knows, maybe another 3 years to automate it? Six years?
I realize that, for the most part, modelers willing to dabble in electronics will most likely use Arduinos for much more simple tasks like lighting interiors of homes along the mainline or automating flashing grade crossing signals. But, for me, I would rather manually operate my layout, and let others provide the circuitry for automating certain tasks like lighting, turnout control, auto-routing, etc.
pages that popped up on my news feed, for those who are curious
Explainer: What is Arduino?
The Untold History of Arduino
1846
Pascal never interested me - it always felt like it was simply created to make it easy to teach and grade programming. It's pretty structured such that there aren;t a whole lot of ways to solve a given problem. By comparison, C is the wild west. there are a million ways to solve a given problem, and programmers will argue for days over which is the better solution. And all be correct.
I started with BASIC, it was approachable (heck, there was even an anthropomophic computer cartoon in the manual) and my 11 year old brain readily absorbed it. But even the cheapest machine running it was out of my reach, so I had to learn direct machine code programming for my first machine, the realtively obscure RCA 1802. Second machine language I learned was Z80, as my friend bought the Editor/Assembler for his TRS-80 and had no idea what it was for. The 1802 architecture especially spoiled me, so by the time I tried 6502 on the Apples at school, I was wondering why everyone praised the 6502 so much. So clunky. But it was cheap... To this day I have never understood the infatuation for the Commodore 64. Maybe because I was more into making the computer do useful thing than playing neat looking games.
FORTRAN was next, and outside of higher level stuff like dBase/Foxbase programming, the first I actually used in a work environment. Not into Pascal, but when Borland Turbo C came out, I started learning C. Also coincided with playing with early versions of Linux. A bunch of years ago I got a PIC experimenter kit and tried learning those, to use in my own projects. I didn;t get too far, then I saw Arduino. Within a few minutes I got past the basic Blink and variations of it. This just all clicked and for the past few years I have been building and tryuing all sorts of different things.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
the one i use most is AWK
gregc pointers and user defined variables (structures) make C suitable to implement an operating system controlling hardware and embedded applications. these aren't features of many languages: basic, fortran, cobol, even pascal. the concept of pointers to data is developed in pascal to support linked lists and tree structures for managing data. but pascal doesn't allow a user specified pointer value to access hardware/memory.
pointers and user defined variables (structures) make C suitable to implement an operating system controlling hardware and embedded applications.
these aren't features of many languages: basic, fortran, cobol, even pascal. the concept of pointers to data is developed in pascal to support linked lists and tree structures for managing data. but pascal doesn't allow a user specified pointer value to access hardware/memory.
rrinkerOnce you know one programming language, picking up others is fairly easy - because you already understnad the concepts, it's just specific syntax.
1143
Once you know one programming language, picking up others is fairly easy - because you already understnad the concepts, it's just specific syntax.
If you're just using one or two - OK. But I am building my own turnout controllers, and will need probably 50 of those, plus at least a dozen nodes for detectors and signals. I'm not even using $5 Arduinos, I am using the microcontroller chip itself. It costs about $2 for the chip plus the components to make it work.
Bayfield Transfer Railway The Basic Stamp may be pricey, but not having to teach myself a new language holds a high value.
The Basic Stamp may be pricey, but not having to teach myself a new language holds a high value.
As the old saying says, “if you haven’t tried it don’t knock it”. The Arduino is a terrific compact high powered processor for the price. $5
If an 83 year old fart like me with no programming experience can get an Arduino to go it should be a snap for anyone with any kind of programming background.
Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
I already suspect that the Lilliputians on my layout are alive, but if they start turning their lights on and off...
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
Comes at a price. The BASIC Stamp goes way back, long before Arduino, actually. Probably the first easy to use microcontroller. But they don't seem to have nearly the support or the following any more, compared to Arduino. For example, you can get 3 packs of Arduino Nanos for under $15 on Amazon. Yes, less than $5 each.
Also, the notion of "programmable doohickey to control stuff on my railroad" has more than one answer. There is also, for instance, the "Basic Stamp" from Parallax, which uses a simpler language.https://www.parallax.com/product/bs2-ic
If one wanted to know about the Arduino, wouldn't it make more sense to do a Google search on "Arduino?"I'm retired and have no desire to learn another computer language, personally. When they make an Arduino that can complie COBOL, wake me up.
rrinker Lighting is probably the easiest thing to do, which is why it always comes up on Arduino 101.
Lighting is probably the easiest thing to do, which is why it always comes up on Arduino 101.
Exactly. A basic lighting module is basically just taking the "blink" sketch (which is the Arduino Hello World) and changing some variables.
While I definitely could not write the sketch for it, my very first Arudino project was building a DCC module so I can run JMRI to program decoders. It has enough output that I could probably run a 4x8 off of it with one or two locomotives.
Think of an Arduino as a building block. It can be used to replace switch machines using servo motors, animating semaphores and grade crossing arms, various lighting on a layout (or in the room for that matter.)
There are a number of add on modules often called shields that make a lot of building circuitry unnecessary. These include things like servo drivers, relay boards, MOSFETs for high current use, wifi capability (if the Arduino doesn't have it already).
Yes, there is coding involved. However, a lot that is already written and available can be adapted easily to your needs and you don't need to be a guru to do it.
There are a lot of thoughts on how to program an Arduino to get the most out of it. I ignore almost all of it because I find the things cheap enough to use one anywhere there is a cluster of stuff to operate, for example, a double crossover using 4 servos, and maybe handle signals at the location.
You can become very knowledgeable about Arduinos using YouTube, various articles in model railroad magazines, robotics, and so on. Honestly if you cut and paste available code to suit your needs the difference in how fast the code runs versus the needs on a layout, unless you get into using the Arduino for controlling locomotives, doesn't matter too much. This approach lets you get right into using Arduinos while learning how to do more with them.
So, if you get interested in using Arduinos be prepared to spend time learning to use them. The effort was/is worth the time for me. YMMV
richhotrainSince the Arduino requires a working knowledge of C++ programming language for more sophisticated applications, most model railroaders are not inclined to learn how to program
you need to know C to develop sophisticated Arduino programs. C is closer to assembler than many languages. but knowing a language and understanding programming concepts are two different things.
a programming concept many newbies don't take advantage of is writing a single function instead of using cut&paste to duplicate code. another is using arrays.
620
greg, I think that you hit the nail on the head. Since the Arduino requires a working knowledge of C++ programming language for more sophisticated applications, most model railroaders are not inclined to learn how to program code.
In the early part of my career, I was a computer programmer, and I have learned several high level languages. Later in my career, as a financial planner, I developed a suite of programs written in Visual Basic that I sold commercially.
So, I would not be intimidated by Arduino, but I would have no interest in programming it. Been there, done that.
richhotrain I always come away from these Arduino discussions with the sense that what an Arduino is mostly used for is to create lighting effects inside buildings.
you don't hear about other applications because most modelers on this forum are not interested. neither are model railroad magazines.
while wiring and electronics is an important aspect of model railroading, software is of very narrow interest. most modelers are challenged by understanding electronics much less software and those that don't have a software background use an Arduino for simple things.
but because the Arduino is programmable and comes on several different size boards with pin headers you just stick a wire into and a USB programming interface, they can be used for more sophisticated projects than just LEDs using commercial hardware and software off the web.
many projects require a small stock of parts. i recently needed an NCE USB interface to try out a Wifi throttle. finding the serial command set on the web used by JMRI, i was able to build an adapter using an Arduino Mega with its multiple serial interfaces. most modelers would just buy the adapter for $50, but building electronics is my thing. think of it as scratch building.
based on what I see on the arduino programming questions forum many people have ambitious goals but struggle with programming. but for those having the skills to develop your own programs its possible to build your own electronics and experiment with things you can't buy commercially; either saving $$ or doing something you couldn't do otherwise
beyond the Arduino are esp32 boards which have WiFi and Bluetooth radio interfaces. the radio interfaces make these suitable for wireless applications and can be programmed using the same development environment and USB cable as an Arduino
557
richhotrain I always come away from these Arduino discussions with the sense that what an Arduino is mostly used for is to create lighting effects inside buildings. But, when you are looking down on your layout from 260 scale feet in the air, how much are you going to see going on inside a building anyhow? Rich
I always come away from these Arduino discussions with the sense that what an Arduino is mostly used for is to create lighting effects inside buildings. But, when you are looking down on your layout from 260 scale feet in the air, how much are you going to see going on inside a building anyhow?
RichI have 8 houses on my layout each using an Arduino UNO Random Lighting Controller. The homes are my wife and I plus one for each of our children, each house has 20 individual lights.The random on and off lighting jumps out at you. The house on the right is a Kit (Winter’s Mansion) the one in the middle is scratch built. Winter’s Mansion has 18 rooms and two porch lights, the scratch built has two porch lights, 13 rooms and the garage has 5 lights, 3 over doors and one over each stall.The on off timing is programmable in the Arduino so no two houses look the same. All look lived in. Two have a flickering fireplace in the living room.The emergency vehicles on my roads with non synced flashing roof light look awesome. I have a 150’ communications tower and two elevated water tanks with flashing beacons also flashing out of sync.
https://melvineperry.blogspot.com/p/blog-page_56.html
The lighting on my layout brings more comments than any train moving. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
You see it. You always see it. It really sticks out when I visit layouts if they have structure lighting or just plopped a bunch of models in the scene.
Lighting is probably the easiest thing to do, which is why it always comes up on Arduino 101. But there's a lot more. All my turnout controls are Arduino. My signalling and control will be Arduino. Etc.