I have yet to see a reason to install keep alives en mass. I have one tiny loco that potentially could have problems even with powered frogs, but it came with a factory installed keep alive. It runs WAY too long before the charge runs down, but that's a different subject.
If you use powered switch machines, besides basic Atlas Snap Switch type, powering metal frogs is essentially free by using the contacts - there's no need for an exepsnive (relatively) frog juicer for basic turnout installations - simple sidings, passing tracks, etc. The whole reason they were invented was to handle proper frog polarity in complex junctions where tracks cross through turnouts and you might have turnouts inside turnouts - see the CNJ Bronx Terminal layout of Tim Warris. Frankly, I would throw my hands up at such trackwork and look for an automatic electronic device as well.
I have yet to have an issue, with two layouts since going DCC and having sound, that would justify putting a keep alive in all or even the majority of my locos. With frequent feeders, I have no power problems. Even the club layout - the only power issues are on the older modules that use fitter tracks, a keep alive would help there, but the right way to fix that is to either power those sections or do like are newer modules do and not use fitter tracks connected electrically only by rail joiners that get used over and over.
I've a beliver is avoiding issues rahter than masking them - a frog juicer works by detecting the short ont he frog and fixing it. Contacts on the switch machine work by never having the short in the first place. Same with autoreverses. Like a frog juicer in a complex track arrangement, an auto reverser can really help out. But in more trivial situations where the loop point is obvious - you can avoid the short entirely. I may end up with some frog juicers on my layout - but certainly not for every turnout, most will be switched via contacts. Unless something drastically differnet happens using Peco track instead of the Atlas I used on the last two layouts, I doubt I will be fitting keep alives, either.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Personally I would prefer keep alives in all my loco's too, but the cost and time and skill to do over 100 engines kind of gets in the way of what would be ideal for me.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Personally I prefer keep-alive units in my locos to frog juicers.
A frog juicer solves one problem at one location - loco stalling because of an unpowered frog.
A keep alive solves two problems anywhere on any DCC layout - stuttering sound / jerky loco operation due to dirty track, and loco stalling because of an unpowered frog.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
Could be. it was a little ambiguous.
Pretty sure he means he has turnouts in different power districts controlled by PSX circuit breakers and wants to use one frog juicer to power frogs that are in different power districts. That's how I read it.
MisterBeasleyMy question is, can I use the same hex juicer to power the frogs on different turnouts in different regions of the layout?
Do you mean to power more than one frog from a single out put on the juicer?
rrinker Yes, you can. Feed the juicer from the DCC power BEFORE any breakers. --Randy
Yes, you can. Feed the juicer from the DCC power BEFORE any breakers.
Thanks. The part of my layout with those turnouts was Code 100, and has been disassembled. I will probably replace them with Tortoise-driven Code 83 turnouts in the future.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I can see how confusing, and potentially expensive all this becomes. $30+ DCC turnouts plus $13+ frog juicers, and who knows what else. Too bad Walthers just didn't offer the older "non-DCC" (live frogs) as an option if modelers chose not to go the Tortoise/juice the frog method, and do what I did: make sure you gap the turnouts at the frog end of the turnout to avoid shorts that way. I did this with this on my yard when I had DC. I converted to DCC and made sure gaps were done. I did that anyway! Everything works great, even after I converted it to DCC. It is the isolated frogs that cause the problem. Yes, I do use Caboose Industries throws, and those work great. Been used to that for years.
Ah, for the good (better) old days where it was somewhat simpler. I know and understand the simplified wiring of DCC, which it is, but, when it comes to turnouts,...well, maybe not so much!
(I still have a shopping bag stuffed with the wires and toggles that I cut out of the layout when I changed to DCC) People who have seen it are amazed.
I guess I didn't make myself clear. I have my layout broken up by circuit breakers to make troubleshooting easier. Each breaker controls a region of the layout. There are multiple turnouts in each region.
Scattered about the layout are a number of Atlas Customline turnouts. I never powered the frogs on any of these, but I've considered it. But, the turnouts are in different regions, and therefore protected by different breakers.
My question is, can I use the same hex juicer to power the frogs on different turnouts in different regions of the layout? I assume the juicer circuit board has only one pair of input wires, plus the six outputs wires to the frogs, but where should I connect the inputs if the frogs are in different breaker protected regions?
There's really no need to have a breaker upstream of a Frog Juicer. A frog is only one side of the circuit - it can't have a short on it. The short at a frog is because a wheel or the loco wiring is bridging the frog of one polarity to a piece of track of the opposite polarity. That gets fixed by the juicer changing the polarity of the frog.
What you have to do is adjust the CV's on the PSX to make it a slo-acting circuit breaker. There are instructions on how to do that on the PSX instruction sheet. It involves moving a jumper, accessing an open engine number on the DCC system (one no engine is assigned to) and the resetting one or two CV's).
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
MisterBeasleyIf you have one of those Hex Juicers, and the frogs happen to be protected by different breakers, can you still do that, or will that sometimes cause breakers to trip?
This diagram is from the Tam Valley website. You can see that there is no circuit breaker in the path to a frog. One of the PSX breaker's claim to fame is that they react very fast. It is conceivable that the breaker would trip before the Frog Juicer switches polarity.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
I have turnouts driven by Tortoise machines. At first I did not power the frogs, taking a "wait and see" approach, but one I did power a couple of them, it made a big performance difference so now I routinely power the frogs during initial tracklaying.
When you say hand-thrown turnouts, does that mean using Caboose throws? Caboose does make throws that include an SPDT switch made for frog powering. This might be an alternative.
You mentioned that you use PSX circuit breakers. I do too, which brings up something I've wondered about. If you have one of those Hex Juicers, and the frogs happen to be protected by different breakers, can you still do that, or will that sometimes cause breakers to trip? My guess is that it will be fine, but I don't know for sure.
astaplefordI assume "Tam Valley" is type that is generally referred to for frog juicers. Are there any other mfrs of these types of devices? And, where would you suggest for the best prices for them? I've seen a price for one that services 6 frogs, which would be good for an area that has 6 turnouts in the same area such as a yard which I think goes for around $60. Their website lists several dealers.
I don't know if anyone else makes the type of device. I bought mine from Tam Valley because they were on sale for $10.00 a piece when I went to buy them so I bought a bunch and still have a few in the drawer.
Depending on where you live on this big blue ball, someone may be able to recommend a shop to get them from. I know people in Australia that order from Canada rather than the U.S. as they save on shipping, duty and tax. This really depends on the who, what's, when's, where's and why's though. If it is a major item and I will save a reasonable amount, I don't hesitate to buy offshore. Saving $4.00 on a boxcar is not worth the effort though.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Batman,
I assume "Tam Valley" is type that is generally referred to for frog juicers. Are there any other mfrs of these types of devices? And, where would you suggest for the best prices for them? I've seen a price for one that services 6 frogs, which would be good for an area that has 6 turnouts in the same area such as a yard which I think goes for around $60. Their website lists several dealers.
I just experimented with one of the troublesome turnouts by running a loco very slowly to the spot where it stops while having my test cable connected to the routed rail and then touching the other end to the frog in question and the loco started, so (obviously) the dead frog is the problem. Not every frog creates the same result, but by and large, I think you have the right idea!
When I bought my first small loco I ran into the same problem. I have about 40 Walthers turnouts and I have yet to determine why they stop on some turnouts and not others of the same size. I bought a whole bunch of Frog Juicers when Tam Valley put them on sale and threw them in the drawer and as soon as I get a stalling problem I whip one in and all is right with the Universe once again.
Yeah, I use hand throws exclusively on my layout. I have Athearn Genesis locos and they stall at some of the turnouts, if not all. It depends on whether they are going at a moderate clip, or slowly as in a switching move. I use Digitrax control, and everything works great, except for going through these turnouts. I hope to hear from others who think the "juicers" will help, also. I am open to using them if they help!
Yes, the loco stopping at the frog is most likely due to loss of power, not a short. Longer frogs, and locos with fewer wheels picking up, over a shorter wheelbase, are most likely to have a problem. Many modern steam locos now pick up power from both sides of the loco AND both sides of the tender - such locos should pretty much never stall on an unpowered frog. But shorter locos, or older ones that pick up only from one side at the front and the other side at the back, tend to easily stall, especially on larger frogs.
A Frog Juicer will take care of this. You can use contacts on switch machines, if you operate your turnouts with powered machines instead of hand throws, which ends up being a lot less expensive than buying Frog Juicers, but in complex arrangements, or with hand thrown turnouts, the Frog Juicer can come in handy.
Frog Juicers will provide power to the frog in the proper phase. The switchover in phase occurs instantaneously whenever a wheel enters the frog when it's out of the phase that rail wants to see for the way the turnout is thrown.
I believe some refer to it as polarity, and perhaps that's an easier way to think of it, but with DCC, which doesnt have a polarity like DC does, it's more appropriate to think of it as a phase since that's what you're actually reversing. The DCC voltage is sort of like AC in form, but it's not the same as the AC we're accustomed to working with.
I just installed my first Frog Juicers recently and they're either working very well, or they're not working at all because they're awfully smooth and unnoticable in operation.
This is a subject that has probably been discussed before, but here goes:
I have Walthers DCC code 83 turnouts of all descriptions; right, left, nos 4, 6, curved, etc. I also have in my major yard which is where I first started to build my layout from 20-25 years ago that have non-DCC turnouts, mostly code 70, but do have code 83 for the main tracks.
Now, when it comes to the DCC turnouts, I have a nagging problem probably due to the fact that the frogs are isolated and have no power. This is not a big problem when locos are at a decent speed. But, when switching at lower speeds, the locos will hesitate, and maybe stop and then go again when one of the truck wheels get onto the frog. It may depend on the length of the loco...a GP9 vs a GP40-2, etc.
I've been reading about Frog Juicers. Are they the answer to my problems? I understand that they will forgo shorts when metal wheels contact a rail with a different polarity. I get that. But what generally seems to be happening is the loco will just stop. I know when there is a short, because each of my power districts is protected from shorts with PSX circuit breakers. If there is a short, I know because the locos with sound all stop until the short is eliminated. When locos stop on a frog, it just stops...locos with sound stay running. So, I think my problem is with the frogs. (?) Are the juicers only for reversing loops and shorts, or do they solve the problem of unpowered frogs?
All of my old non-DCC turnouts work flawlessy. I wish I could replace all DCC turnouts with non-DCC turnouts! Now it is going to cost me $11-12 for each of my DCC turnouts, in addition to what I have paid for new Walthers DCC turnouts!
AARGH! -Al